Spine Whacks and Lock Strength

[singularity35]

Nope, don't have any ultra expensive, ultra trendy knives. Most expensive knife I have is a kershaw tremor (unless you count my leatherman I used to own and SAKs) which I picked up for around $25. My gripe with the spine whack tests like what this guy did was he basically used the knives as a hammer which is not realistic for what you do with a knife. A decent whack to the spine to test it I can understand someone doing to test it if they wanted to know if it close if you accidentally did something stupid (something I still wouldn't do). But a full fledge hit against concrete multiple times to make a knife fail proves nothing to me as it's a very unrealistic scenario.

But maybe this is just me I was raised using SAKs so I don't do anything like apply pressure to the blade which would make it collapse on purpose, to me it is a locking mechanism is a SAFETY mechanism. I don't do anything on purpose that apply pressure to the blade in any way that would make it want to close unless that was my intent. I can safely say I can't think of a single instance in which I relied on the locking mechanism to allow me to do something that a slip joint would allow me to do. Don't mistake what I saying as me bashing a strong locking mechanism, thats a good thing and it's always welcome I just don't point in this type of testing and the way it was done.

How should we test locking mechanisms for strength and reliability?

 

[FCM415]

I gotta say, I sold all my Spydercos. Their knives are little toys to me. I don't like their philosophy of "knives are tools to only cut with" because models like the military are just not what I would expect to use in the military. They just aren't tough enough. I even had them falling apart with light EDC use. I loved the materials but the overall durability doesn't even come close to CS.

Wow, out of my short time here on the forums this post is company bashing defined... among your other gems on this thread.

You have a youtube account under the same handle, there, you had a glowing review of the Kershaw Piston (It's great um, its strong um, its cool, um um um). Great knife, I own one also, but the Military is in no way inferior to it on any level... Point is, it is easy to see that you have something against Spyderco.It's not simply about preference... No need to front, you had a bad experience with their customer service and were traumatized from the subforum. So now you're running around talking about Spydercos are nothing but toys. Fine, but be real about it, it is simply beyond preference like you say... Don't beat around the bush, CS set a good example for you.

Mods no warning needed, this is all I have to say. I'm out.

 

[EZ Bake]

Spine whack tests are perfectly reasonable means of testing a folding knife's lock-strength. They're very much real-world tests since the majority of the time, folks use the spine of their knife for every day tasks. Let's be honest, tests involving the knife's edge aren't real-world - it's not like you'll ever really use that side (like maybe in a 1-in-a-million situation or something crazy like that).

Other tests that are perfectly reasonable:

- Clamping the (opened) folding knife by the blade to a table (with the blade parallel to the ground) and standing on it to test out the pivot/blade.
- Turning the knife sideways and hammering nails into a board with the scales to test scale-strength
- Running over a knife with a car to test liners and back-spacer/pillars
- Dropping a knife off of a 25 story building to test out how it will be affected should it fall out of your pocket
- Hammering the knife (tip-first) into concrete with a mallet to test out tip-strength
- Using an AUS8 knife's edge to cut through another (inferior) knife's blade (edge to edge) made of something inferior like S30v.

If a knife can't do the above without experiencing major damage, then it's definitely a toy and probably too expensive (and inferior). Anyone who thinks otherwise must be jealous because their inferior overly-expensive knife isn't made as tough.

 

[blame it on god]

^^Exactly.

I don't know how my grandfather lived to be 90 years old and kept all 10 fingers by misusing his Case trapper the way he did. What an idiot! We are SO much smarter these days!

 

[singularity35]

Cars didn't use to come with seat belts. But if you use the car properly, it probably wouldn't matter...

 

[EZ Bake]

I agree man.

I'm going to start a petition to get congress to pass a law that requires spine-whack tests for all knife-makers. Think of the thousands of lives we'll save each year (or at least the "nearly lost a finger" BS stories we'll cut down on).

To put this in car-terms - Spine-whack tests are the equivalent of "Duke Boys" style ravine jumps to test out a car's ability to function. Sure that would be much more awesome if your car could pass that test, but let's face it... Roscoe isn't really ever going to make that jump to follow you. Not while you're running on moonshine my friend.

 

[Ankerson]

How should we test locking mechanisms for strength and reliability?

Yes, spine tapping is a valid test (shock test) to make sure the lock is solid and within specs....

However going to the extreme to the point of trying to break the knife and or making it fail should be left to the knife companies and the testers.

It's really not a big deal or as big a deal as some seem to make it out to be, either the lock holds or it doesn't, it's either within spec or it's not so if it fails in a quick check that's a lot better than if it failed in use and closes on someones fingers.

News flash for some people in this thread.....

All of the major companies and a lot of custom knife makers test their knives to make sure things are working as they should....

 

[singularity35]

I agree man.

I'm going to start a petition to get congress to pass a law that requires spine-whack tests for all knife-makers. Think of the thousands of lives we'll save each year (or at least the "nearly lost a finger" BS stories we'll cut down on).

To put this in car-terms - Spine-whack tests are the equivalent of "Duke Boys" style ravine jumps to test out a car's ability to function. Sure that would be much more awesome if your car could pass that test, but let's face it... Roscoe isn't really ever going to make that jump to follow you. Not while you're running on moonshine my friend.

The snark is strong with this one Luke...


In car terms, how are you testing the seatbelt and airbags by jumping the car? BTW, newsflash, they test safety features on cars by crash testing. Not by dukes of hazzard style tests. So in knife terms, how do you test the lock reliability and geometry?

Oh and what about when the manufacturers test? IIRC correctly Sal has a lockbreaking machine....I think you probably have to differentiate between a valid spine tap test and a full force overhand swing. Also your argument is called "argumentum ad absurdum". So I guess we know what you're trying to do here.

 

[B.F.U]

Man, this is out of hand. I'll say the "other side" seems to be holding on to something and afraid to let go. Very snarky. But hey, I believe in using knives. If you are satisfied with the use you get out of your knife (per dollar spent?) Then that is enough.

 

[EZ Bake]

I felt like logic was falling on deaf ears so I tried sarcasm to stress the point that 1.) Spine whack tests are (like bataning) given far too much weight (especially by those who parrot more than they actually cut) and 2.) There are obviously other real world tests you can perform to ensure a knife won't fail under normal use.

Now, are spine-whack tests fun and somewhat impressive? Sure. Are they they the end-all test by which you should judge a folding knife? No (but when it's the only test you happen to be winning at, you'd probably go through great lengths to weight that test above all else... maybe even making up stories, or coming up with scenarios that defy science and logic)...

I think you'll be hard pressed to find a better thread than this one where the inferiority complex comes out so strong that a manufacturer would call out other manufacturers "who don't provide proof" and folks start making up stories and using generalizations to try and discredit entire manufacturers knives as "little toys".

Do Spyderco knives fail? Of course. Is that failure rate higher than Cold steel's failure rate? I'd love to see some real numbers on that subject to be honest.

Cars are designed to be driven and crashes occur often. How often (among quality manufacturers) do lock failures occur in folders? If it's nearly as minuscule as I think it is compared to car crashes, then my Duke Boys point is valid and the seatbelt comment is entirely Red Herring.

Serious question for the folks who put so much into lock strength. If Cold Steel didn't have the Tri-Ad lock (and had to rely on back-locks, frame locks, and God forbid, liner locks), would you still be such a die hard fan?

 

[B.F.U]

I don't think I'd even consider myself a "die hard fan" of cold steel. Actually I know I wouldn't. I'm talking about the whole "knives are only for slicing, lock strength by spine pressure tests are worthless" attitude. I'm not even saying you have that, but it's prevalent in this thread.

I Definitely don't think spyderco knives are "little toys". I've used my spyderco knives for a lot of the things cold steel does for proof. The only time a spyderco lock failed for me it was purely out of my own stupidity. I held it so that the lock back was depressed and thrust it at something hard. I routinely use my native for work that probably should be done with a fixed blade or a saw (when I don't have the right tool). On the other hand, I had a cold steel fixed blade straight snap under light batoning. So there's that.

 

[Ankerson]

Serious question for the folks who put so much into lock strength. If Cold Steel didn't have the Tri-Ad lock (and had to rely on back-locks, frame locks, and God forbid, liner locks), would you still be such a die hard fan?

Some of us have owned and have been using CS products for a VERY long time..... For me it's been around 27 years now.... And I do own their lock backs, (vers of the axis lock) and liner locks.....

A fan....?

Well I own their products and do use them, but then I own a lot of knives and use those too...

 

[EZ Bake]

Some of us have owned and have been using CS products for a VERY long time..... For me it's been around 27 years now.... And I do own their lock backs, (vers of the axis lock) and liner locks.....

A fan....?

Well I own their products and do use them, but then I own a lot of knives and use those too...

Yeah, but I also value your opinion on things man - your hard-use/abuse tests are some of the few I put any stock into. You also aren't trashing other brands and I know you respect more than just CS knives based on your videos/posts. You also appear to recognize edge-retention as a factor in knives (I enjoy the Edge-retention test thread you started as well).

What I don't get are the folks who depend on such incredible lock-strength, yet they feel the need to put down other manufacturers in order to validate their purchase.

My motto is just be happy with what you have - if it works for what you need it to do, then great.

 

[Ankerson]

Yeah, but I also value your opinion on things man - your hard-use/abuse tests are some of the few I put any stock into. You also aren't trashing other brands and I know you respect more than just CS knives based on your videos/posts. You also appear to recognize edge-retention as a factor in knives (I enjoy the Edge-retention test thread you started as well).

What I don't get are the folks who depend on such incredible lock-strength, yet they feel the need to put down other manufacturers in order to validate their purchase.

My motto is just be happy with what you have - if it works for what you need it to do, then great.

There is a lot of that going on... it works both ways..... It is the internet.....

There will always be fanboys and those who believe that their choices are the best and everyone else should think the same way as they do for various reasons and agendas.

That could mean knives, cars, watches and countless other items...

IMO there is no best, there is different however and that's were opinions come in.

As long as the quality is there it's all good.

 

[Ankerson]

Some other thoughts....

What do I normally carry and use? Spyderco Military (One of many) and CRK Umnumzaan, so if someone sees me one of those is what I will likely have in my pocket.

Kitchen use? Well I use hand made custom fixed blades in S90V, S110V, K294, M390 and CPM 154.

Garage knife? CS Recon 1.

Other things? Could be a variety of knives from Cold Steel to Busse depending.

 

[singularity35]

Yeah, but I also value your opinion on things man - your hard-use/abuse tests are some of the few I put any stock into. You also aren't trashing other brands and I know you respect more than just CS knives based on your videos/posts. You also appear to recognize edge-retention as a factor in knives (I enjoy the Edge-retention test thread you started as well).

What I don't get are the folks who depend on such incredible lock-strength, yet they feel the need to put down other manufacturers in order to validate their purchase.

My motto is just be happy with what you have - if it works for what you need it to do, then great.

Are you talking about me? I only have two cold steels. I don't have many knives(maybe only around 50) but I have 10 militaries and 6 para 2's. The military is the knife I carry most. I already mentioned in a previous thread that I have a more slicers than "hard use" knives, because I use slicers more whose lock strength is quite sufficient for me and on which I value lock reliability more. I also like the different steels. But I have a couple 301's and a 200 for "hard use" which by the way, is use beyond normal knife use that you really don't anticipate. So when I buy a hard use knife, I want a hard use knife that has a strong lock.

I really didn't care before whether some folks found a spine whack a valid test but after a few years here, I noticed that some folks always came out of the woodwork to bash the spine whackers in every thread about spine whacks, always going the usual BF way of trying to dictate opinion. After a LOT of threads and acrimony over spine whacks I may have come to an erroneous correlation. But I still don't care the least bit for people who try to dictate opinion.

I have a story(but it seems that you have "prejudiced the jury") but here it is anyway. I used to practice eskrima regularly and we used to do a lot of work on cutting dummies. Now I hope you're not one of the people who don't recommend knives for SD, but people do carry, practice, and use knives for SD whether you think it's a good idea or not. Anyway, imagine what sorts of stresses a folding knife will go through with repeated impacts and stabs on a wooden structure wrapped with sacks. On yeh, and an occasional hard impact on the spine too. I have 3 chinook 3's, one I used to carry and for drills, the other two for backup.

 

[europeanoutdoorsman]

Are you talking about me? I only have two cold steels. I don't have many knives(maybe only around 50) but I have 10 militaries and 6 para 2's. The military is the knife I carry most. I already mentioned in a previous thread that I have a more slicers than "hard use" knives, because I use slicers more whose lock strength is quite sufficient for me and on which I value lock reliability more. I also like the different steels. But I have a couple 301's and a 200 for "hard use" which by the way, is use beyond normal knife use that you really don't anticipate. So when I buy a hard use knife, I want a hard use knife that has a strong lock.

I really didn't care before whether some folks found a spine whack a valid test but after a few years here, I noticed that some folks always came out of the woodwork to bash the spine whackers in every thread about spine whacks, always going the usual BF way of trying to dictate opinion. After a LOT of threads and acrimony over spine whacks I may have come to an erroneous correlation. But I still don't care the least bit for people who try to dictate opinion.

I have a story(but it seems that you have "prejudiced the jury") but here it is anyway. I used to practice eskrima regularly and we used to do a lot of work on cutting dummies. Now I hope you're not one of the people who don't recommend knives for SD, but people do carry, practice, and use knives for SD whether you think it's a good idea or not. Anyway, imagine what sorts of stresses a folding knife will go through with repeated impacts and stabs on a wooden structure wrapped with sacks. On yeh, and an occasional hard impact on the spine too. I have 3 chinook 3's, one I used to carry and for drills, the other two for backup.

Oddly enough, I started learning Eskrima not too long ago. I think part of the backing of the tri-ad lock by Lynn Thomson is because of his fight videos. I saw one some time ago and he had hes "progression" or force or something like that. Where if you used a knife for defense, you wouldn't immediately stab the attacker, but you'd smack them with the spine of the blade as sort of a warning. Now, whether or not you agree with this (I don't necessarily agree with this, though, in theory, in some circumstances it might not be a bad idea), this probably plays into the lock philosophy and since as far as I know, none of the other major knife companies ( Spyderco, Kershaw, ZT, etc.) market their knives in this way.

It might be useful to think about the effect of a liner lock knife (of any brand) being used in a defensive role. Imagine that you were to give a warning strike (again, I don't believe in warning strikes), the way LCT had advised in one of his videos, it probably wouldn't end well for the lock. Traditional backlocks wouldn't be any different since you'd probably dent the lock bar face. I also saw a video some time ago with Nutnfancy doing stab tests into layers of cardboard. He had these taped to a heavy bag to try to simulate a weighted body. After a few stabs the Ontario Rat 1 had blade movement. I guess there is no surprise there since he put a lot of force into stabbing. I am not sure that is a reasonable test either thought. But, it still makes me wonder.

 

[EZ Bake]

Are you talking about me? I only have two cold steels. I don't have many knives(maybe only around 50) but I have 10 militaries and 6 para 2's. The military is the knife I carry most. I already mentioned in a previous thread that I have a more slicers than "hard use" knives, because I use slicers more whose lock strength is quite sufficient for me and on which I value lock reliability more. I also like the different steels. But I have a couple 301's and a 200 for "hard use" which by the way, is use beyond normal knife use that you really don't anticipate. So when I buy a hard use knife, I want a hard use knife that has a strong lock.

I really didn't care before whether some folks found a spine whack a valid test but after a few years here, I noticed that some folks always came out of the woodwork to bash the spine whackers in every thread about spine whacks, always going the usual BF way of trying to dictate opinion. After a LOT of threads and acrimony over spine whacks I may have come to an erroneous correlation. But I still don't care the least bit for people who try to dictate opinion.

I have a story(but it seems that you have "prejudiced the jury") but here it is anyway. I used to practice eskrima regularly and we used to do a lot of work on cutting dummies. Now I hope you're not one of the people who don't recommend knives for SD, but people do carry, practice, and use knives for SD whether you think it's a good idea or not. Anyway, imagine what sorts of stresses a folding knife will go through with repeated impacts and stabs on a wooden structure wrapped with sacks. On yeh, and an occasional hard impact on the spine too. I have 3 chinook 3's, one I used to carry and for drills, the other two for backup.

First off, no I wasn't directing that to you (it's why I purposely wasn't quoting you), and secondly "Prejudiced the jury"? That's what I'm talking about right there, man. I never said a folding knife shouldn't be use in self-defense, or in "hard use" and I'm not a Cold Steel Hater (read through this thread at some of the hater-posts - where are most coming from?). I'm of the opinion that Spine Whack tests are actually a valid way for the manufacturer to get a benchmark as to where the failure point is, but they aren't the only test to do that, nor are they a test that should be weighted so heavily that it's the only thing that matters (and the moment I question that, it seems like I've committed the cardinal sin over here - now this place sounds exactly like the Spyderco sub-forum - how weird is it that they and their sub-forum are exactly who most are calling out over here, yet both sides are doing the same fanboy-ism?).

As to self-defense, you show me a single knife-expert who says a folder is better for self-defense than a fixed blade and I'll concede the point that lock-strength is that critical, but if a folder (no matter how strong the lock is) is a compromise for self-defense (vs. a fixed-blade), then lock-strength is just one of many factors (and not the most critical if you're giving up deployment speed/simplicity/structural-integrity/etc.)

Do I think folders should never be used for self-defense? Not at all - I would use any of mine if I had to, but 1.) I'd never give a warning spine-whack - if my life was truly in danger and required the use of deadly force, you can bet I'd be using deadly force and not Hollywood-style warnings, and 2.) if I was down to just my folding-knife then I'd seriously be considering running as a better option if my Carry-pistol and fixed-blade had failed me. Also, there are plenty of ways to fight "with the knife you brought" meaning you don't necessarily have to stab to knife-fight (especially in self-defense) and I've never even read from an expert where hitting an opponent with the spine of a knife is absolutely necessary.

Like I said, I'd love to see some numbers on lock-failure from the field and the causes, or model-specific failure from different manufacturers but I doubt that will ever come to pass so we'll all be stuck with personal experience (or in some cases, completely made-up stories by fanboys and haters alike). For the record, I'm no hater or fanboy here, just pointing out that real information trumps hypothetical situations and made-up stories every time in the real world. Also, emotional responses and zealotry are common among blade-forums or any other forum (or in politics/religion/sports/etc) here in America, so I don't usually let these things get to me - don't mistake anything I've said as anything other than a comment made in good fun to try and make folks think - I'm not here to troll or start anymore "us vs. them" stuff.

I actually own a Cold Steel American Lawman and I love it. The Aus8A steel could be a bit better at edge-retention, but then again, so could Benchmade's 154CM, and Spyderco's S30v. The AL sharpens back up easily enough so I don't mind (I recently took my Para-2 and American Lawman to Shawnee for Tornado Relief and they both did really well under what I would consider pretty hard use for a folding knife - both cut their share of sighting, insulative/foil panels, rope, wire, small tree-limbs, etc with little issue).

I don't really have a problem with Cold Steel other than their warranty, some of their sillier marketing (which I'll admit - is entertaining), and this thread where the OP calls out "other brands (who don't provide proof)" as if spine-whack tests mean more than they do in terms of QC/testing/materials/craftsmanship/etc. (look at all the "your brand is a toy" types of replies from the CS fanboys that have resulted).

I also have some issues with Spyderco, their customer service and a few of their products, but I can say for certain even if Spyderco was the worst brand on planet Earth (and I do not believe them to be), Sal and/or his moderators would never blast other brands as they have too much class. That is truly the thing that surprised me most about opening this thread.

 

[singularity35]

.....

Ok, this is going to be a lot of work since you have meandered all over the place with your arguments.

The discussion was whether a spine whack was a valid test of lock strength and reliability but your arguments seem to have diverged into a lot of paths. You mention that you want to see stats of failures but that's not germane to the discussion. The only frame of reference that can be applied is personal experience. If a person experiences need of strong locks in his personal use, then it's not up to you to say that he doesn't.

Cars are designed to be driven and crashes occur often. How often (among quality manufacturers) do lock failures occur in folders? If it's nearly as minuscule as I think it is compared to car crashes, then my Duke Boys point is valid and the seatbelt comment is entirely Red Herring.

Not a red herring at all. You brought up slip joints and said that when used correctly, no inuries occur. Of course, that's the same thing with cars. Seatbelts are a reasonable analogy. They prevent injury in the case of user error. Same thing with locks on knives.

Your analogy is akin to testing a knife by battoning and prying, or even worse, destructive testing. Seatbelts will protect from user error in normal use. So do locks. You obviously were taking the argument to an absurd level to make it ridiculous. Again you are ignoring the degree of force used in the spine whack(I don't like to use the word tap). You just assume it's an absurd level of force.

You have no problem accepting Ankerson's post and respecting his opinion but even when others say the same thing, you don't accord the same respect.

First off, no I wasn't directing that to you (it's why I purposely wasn't quoting you), and secondly "Prejudiced the jury"? That's what I'm talking about right there, man.

Yep, I was going to relate a personal experience of how lock strength is important to me but you already posted this.

... maybe even making up stories, or coming up with scenarios that defy science and logic)...

A desire for ultimate lock strength is a preference based on personal use. Notice how some people don't like plasticky handles? That too is preference and will not take into account real world failures. It is a personally percieved observation that resulted in personal preference. Same thing with lock strenght. I'd say it's not your place to insist that a personal preference is wrong. Oh BTW, there's also another reference there to "made up stories" which is what I pointed out as "prejudicing the jury".

Like I said, I'd love to see some numbers on lock-failure from the field and the causes, or model-specific failure from different manufacturers but I doubt that will ever come to pass so we'll all be stuck with personal experience (or in some cases, completely made-up stories by fanboys and haters alike). For the record, I'm no hater or fanboy here, just pointing out that real information trumps hypothetical situations and made-up stories every time in the real world. Also, emotional responses and zealotry are common among blade-forums or any other forum (or in politics/religion/sports/etc) here in America, so I don't usually let these things get to me - don't mistake anything I've said as anything other than a comment made in good fun to try and make folks think - I'm not here to troll or start anymore "us vs. them" stuff.

Another off tangent. The discussion was about testing lock strength and how valid a spine whack is in testing that.

As to self-defense, you show me a single knife-expert who says a folder is better for self-defense than a fixed blade and I'll concede the point that lock-strength is that critical, but if a folder (no matter how strong the lock is) is a compromise for self-defense (vs. a fixed-blade), then lock-strength is just one of many factors (and not the most critical if you're giving up deployment speed/simplicity/structural-integrity/etc.)

 

[EZ Bake]

Ok, this is going to be a lot of work since you have meandered all over the place with your arguments.

The discussion was whether a spine whack was a valid test of lock strength and reliability but your arguments seem to have diverged into a lot of paths. You mention that you want to see stats of failures but that's not germane to the discussion. The only frame of reference that can be applied is personal experience. If a person experiences need of strong locks in his personal use, then it's not up to you to say that he doesn't.



Not a red herring at all. You brought up slip joints and said that when used correctly, no inuries occur. Of course, that's the same thing with cars. Seatbelts are a reasonable analogy. They prevent injury in the case of user error. Same thing with locks on knives.

Your analogy is akin to testing a knife by battoning and prying, or even worse, destructive testing. Seatbelts will protect from user error in normal use. So do locks. You obviously were taking the argument to an absurd level to make it ridiculous. Again you are ignoring the degree of force used in the spine whack(I don't like to use the word tap). You just assume it's an absurd level of force.

You have no problem accepting Ankerson's post and respecting his opinion but even when others say the same thing, you don't accord the same respect.



Yep, I was going to relate a personal experience of how lock strength is important to me but you already posted this.



A desire for ultimate lock strength is a preference based on personal use. Notice how some people don't like plasticky handles? That too is preference and will not take into account real world failures. It is a personally percieved observation that resulted in personal preference. Same thing with lock strenght. I'd say it's not your place to insist that a personal preference is wrong. Oh BTW, there's also another reference there to "made up stories" which is what I pointed out as "prejudicing the jury".



Another off tangent. The discussion was about testing lock strength and how valid a spine whack is in testing that.

I never said anything about slip-joints. I didn't meander all over the place (I was responding to seemingly meandering points brought up by you and others). So when talking about lock-failure, statistics are not germane and the only frame of reference is personal experience and not real stats and data (which I just said I would love to see)? This discussion is starting to sound familiar...

Here's what I was responding to with regard to Self Defense (you should get onto this guy for meandering all over the place):

Now I hope you're not one of the people who don't recommend knives for SD, but people do carry, practice, and use knives for SD whether you think it's a good idea or not. Anyway, imagine what sorts of stresses a folding knife will go through with repeated impacts and stabs on a wooden structure wrapped with sacks. On yeh, and an occasional hard impact on the spine too. I have 3 chinook 3's, one I used to carry and for drills, the other two for backup.

I do trust Ankerson and what he has to say based on his reputation and the fact that he sticks with facts and not hyperbole and intangibles - I have yet to state that Spine-Whack tests are invalid or meaningless (I've continued to state the same thing - that most of the folks in this sub-forum seem to put entirely too much weight in Spine-whack tests - I'm not sure if you have me confused with another poster, but you seem to be attributing several statements to me that I didn't type).

I don't know how many more times I can re-state that I wasn't talking to you, but you seem to be taking a particularly emotionally defensive stance as if I've attacked you when I've been pretty specific in not doing that. There are at least two stories in this thread that sound very much made-up. Others have pointed out that they don't sound credible either, and I'm not going to beat a dead horse (you really need to re-read this whole thread).

Sounds like discussion isn't really as important as defending an ideology here, so I'll bow out.

Cheers.