Spine Whacks and Lock Strength

[Bryan J]

Let's face it: the most entertaining Cold Steel videos are the ones when they're spraying people in the face with their proprietary pepper spray. I'd like to request that you integrate this into your triad lock testing vids--have some guy whack away at the spine of a Recon 1 with a hammer as Lynn Thompson streams Inferno pepper spray into his eyeballs.

 

[EZ Bake]

I gotta say, I sold all my Spydercos. Their knives are little toys to me. I don't like their philosophy of "knives are tools to only cut with" because models like the military are just not what I would expect to use in the military. They just aren't tough enough.

Opening boxes/ packages, sometimes food prep. Sometimes I cut wood.

Sounds like the Spyderco Military is tough enough for that. No offense but your story and reasoning seem to be all over the place here (or I'm just having trouble following it). If CS knives were more expensive, would you still buy them?

I'm not knocking CS knives here (I love my American Lawman) but more than one CS fan seems to want to steer this thread towards brand bashing.

 

[europeanoutdoorsman]

Sounds like the Spyderco Military is tough enough for that. No offense but your story and reasoning seem to be all over the place here (or I'm just having trouble following it). If CS knives were more expensive, would you still buy them?

I'm not knocking CS knives here (I love my American Lawman) but more than one CS fan seems to want to steer this thread towards brand bashing.

All knives are more expensive here. So, a CS which is 50% more expensive is still cheaper than a Spyderco PM2 which is 50%. Sometimes, I will buy knives from the states, but taxes apply to all imports whether it be a Cold Steel, Ka-Bar, some sort of watch. That is how it works.

For example, a local shop has a voyager 4 inch selling for 64 euro +5 euro shipping (64 euro currently = about 84 dollars). The PM2 is going for 180 euros (about 230 dollars). So, hopefully that helps explain what I am talking about.

At that rate, I could buy a Voyager here in Europe and it would STILL be cheaper than buying a PM2 from a place in the states. I am not knocking Spyderco. I don't like them and that is my preference, you are entitled to yours based on your experience.

 

[Ankerson]

Opening boxes/ packages, sometimes food prep. Sometimes I cut wood. Keep in mind that I used this on and off duty. I never used it in a way which would really have to stress the knife, but still the confidence in the knife is there.

That's pretty much what I use mine for (Except food prep) and never had any issues and I have had it awhile.....

The blade is still centered, no blade play and it hasn't fell apart on me and I carry this knife more than any other, it's my work knife.

 

[europeanoutdoorsman]

That's pretty much what I use mine for (Except food prep) and never had any issues and I have had it awhile.....

The blade is still centered, no blade play and it hasn't fell apart on me and I carry this knife more than any other, it's my work knife.

Well, the military is nice. for me, too nice to use rough. I never owned one but the liner lock does look a little slim to me. I figure that over time this might wear down as the lock face and tang rub up against each other. If you say you haven't had issues, cool. I still wouldn't pay for a military and rough use it.

I do occasionally take folders out to do farm type work, but still. The second choice as far as folders go would be Kershaw, just because of the warranty. I mean, I didn't want to bash spydercos. They make a lot nicer knives than I could, but I just don't like them.

When I did break that AK-47, I had batoned it through a log (the axe handle broke during a camping trip). I batoned with the AK, the blade bent at the lower bevel where the hollow grind is really thin. It was bent bad, very bad. But still after that, it cut really well. That bend got worse over time and broke. That is more than any folder should be put through. I EDC a voyager because it is a great all arounder, it is pretty inexpensive, and does the job well and meets my conditions for a carry knife. If I had to be in the military again, I'd probably carry it as a folder. I know of guys in the services who carried enduras and cheap colt knives without issues. So, I guess it is up to preference and personal experience. The Tri-Ad lock just gives me confidence in my knife.

 

[singularity35]

Well, the military is nice. for me, too nice to use rough. I never owned one but the liner lock does look a little slim to me. I figure that over time this might wear down as the lock face and tang rub up against each other. If you say you haven't had issues, cool. I still wouldn't pay for a military and rough use it.

I do occasionally take folders out to do farm type work, but still. The second choice as far as folders go would be Kershaw, just because of the warranty. I mean, I didn't want to bash spydercos. They make a lot nicer knives than I could, but I just don't like them.

When I did break that AK-47, I had batoned it through a log (the axe handle broke during a camping trip). I batoned with the AK, the blade bent at the lower bevel where the hollow grind is really thin. It was bent bad, very bad. But still after that, it cut really well. That bend got worse over time and broke. That is more than any folder should be put through. I EDC a voyager because it is a great all arounder, it is pretty inexpensive, and does the job well and meets my conditions for a carry knife. If I had to be in the military again, I'd probably carry it as a folder. I know of guys in the services who carried enduras and cheap colt knives without issues. So, I guess it is up to preference and personal experience. The Tri-Ad lock just gives me confidence in my knife.

I can understand you not liking Spyderco and that is cool but just trashing a whole company's knives as "weak" with just one or two experiences, is uncool.

BTW, I've also used an endura and a millie on the farm. Digging for root rot in my mangos, a bit of pruning(chopping half inch branches) and both of those knives are still tight. There's no indication that they are going to fall apart.

 

[B.F.U]

Maybe people are so mad about spine whack tests because their ultra expensive ultra trendy knives don't pass them (much of the time). I don't think cold steel's marketing is very cool, but their products are strong. Stronger than many knives 10x the price. Back locks etc (triad), bolt action locks etc (axis) are simply stronger locks. And don't even say "a knife is for cutting, that's all you should do with it" if that were true we would only have sheepsfoot blades or blunted tips. Many things need to be pierced to be cut. Piercing puts pressure on the spine. I want a lock that won't guillotine my fingers.

 

[B.F.U]

Let's face it: the most entertaining Cold Steel videos are the ones when they're spraying people in the face with their proprietary pepper spray. I'd like to request that you integrate this into your triad lock testing vids--have some guy whack away at the spine of a Recon 1 with a hammer as Lynn Thompson streams Inferno pepper spray into his eyeballs.

I Would pay to see that, for sure. You can tell ol' Lynn cee loves doing it too.

 

[singularity35]

Maybe people are so mad about spine whack tests because their ultra expensive ultra trendy knives don't pass them (much of the time). I don't think cold steel's marketing is very cool, but their products are strong. Stronger than many knives 10x the price. Back locks etc (triad), bolt action locks etc (axis) are simply stronger locks. And don't even say "a knife is for cutting, that's all you should do with it" if that were true we would only have sheepsfoot blades or blunted tips. Many things need to be pierced to be cut. Piercing puts pressure on the spine. I want a lock that won't guillotine my fingers.

Hehehe, yeh. They're probably afraid of hurting their "tanks".

 

[Jaytaylor]

Hehehe, yeh. They're probably afraid of hurting their "tanks".

Lots of brand knocking going on here, if you guys are so comfortable in your folding knife choice (coldsteel) why do you feel the need to knock other brands. Why all the snipping?

Envy perhaps?

I will not whack the spine of any of my knives, Hinderers or sub $50 knives.

Whilst I am confident they will take a certain amount of spine whacking abuse, this abusive & pointless form of testing will cause lock face damage to liner locks and frame locks.

Is the Tri-ad lock tougher than the fore mentioned locks, sure, the nature of the lock design transfers the force to a fixed stop pin. The lock will take more abuse before disengaging or damage occurs, great, go enjoy them.

I'm am confident in my knives, I've never had one beak or disengage in about 25 years of knife usage and I certainly do use my knives.
I work on the principal of right tool for the right job, folders have been used for cutting only.

Batoning, digging holes, hammering with the pommel (knife specific design) are fixed blade tasks.

I do not own any cold steel folders simply because they do not do it for me, aesthetically speaking I think they are rather ugly designs.

The only thing which would tempt me is a Demko custom.

 

[Sadden]

I could go for a demko custom or 10 myself.

I like cold steels products. People find LCT's marketing off putting. I get it. I don't honestly know if I could have a conversation with the guy as he comes across as very overbearing (based on interviews I've seen etc..). Say what you like about the videos they are kind of neat to watch and they certainly put the knives through there paces.

I like brands besides cold steel as well. S30V spyderco. Cool! I want one! But the two I have handled have not inspired confidence in the hand like my Tanto Recon 1 does. Some guy on YouTube wedged his into a tree and tried to break it and the blade broke before the pivot did on the G10. I have seen some people use other folding knives for heavier chopping and such. But never anything like that.

 

[singularity35]

Lots of brand knocking going on here, if you guys are so comfortable in your folding knife choice (coldsteel) why do you feel the need to knock other brands. Why all the snipping?

Envy perhaps?

I will not whack the spine of any of my knives, Hinderers or sub $50 knives.

Whilst I am confident they will take a certain amount of spine whacking abuse, this abusive & pointless form of testing will cause lock face damage to liner locks and frame locks.

Is the Tri-ad lock tougher than the fore mentioned locks, sure, the nature of the lock design transfers the force to a fixed stop pin. The lock will take more abuse before disengaging or damage occurs, great, go enjoy them.

I'm am confident in my knives, I've never had one beak or disengage in about 25 years of knife usage and I certainly do use my knives.
I work on the principal of right tool for the right job, folders have been used for cutting only.

Batoning, digging holes, hammering with the pommel (knife specific design) are fixed blade tasks.

I do not own any cold steel folders simply because they do not do it for me, aesthetically speaking I think they are rather ugly designs.

The only thing which would tempt me is a Demko custom.

Which brand is that that you feel I'm knocking on? If you think spine whacking a tank is abusive, then obviously you are fearing damage or failure.

I don't have a lot of coldsteels(just 2 for me) folders, I believe that spine whacking can indicate how strong your locks are. Whether you think it's relevant to your use or not, the fact remains that some knives can easily pass the stresses of spine whacking and overstrikes and some can not. Among my folders, I have dedicated slicers of which only lock reliability is of importance to me and not lock strength. These slicers can pass a spine whack or not, I don't really care. But if my knife is supposed to be "hard use", then by gosh it should be able to take some abuse. I have a couple of "tanks" which I'd like to think are able to stand spine whacks but I fear that they can not without sustaining damage. I still like them but I will not be in denial by refusing to accept that Cold Steel's tri-ad is stronger than my framelocks.

There is no brand bashing coming from me, there is just the acknowledgement that I fear my more expensive framelocks cannot handle a test of lock strength(whether you think it relevant or not) that a less expensive knife can breeze through. I also find that the people who look down their noses at spinewhacks and overstrikes are very defensive about their knives and will easily take offense at the suggestion that their "tanks" will not be able to handle these "tests".

 

[europeanoutdoorsman]

I can understand you not liking Spyderco and that is cool but just trashing a whole company's knives as "weak" with just one or two experiences, is uncool.

BTW, I've also used an endura and a millie on the farm. Digging for root rot in my mangos, a bit of pruning(chopping half inch branches) and both of those knives are still tight. There's no indication that they are going to fall apart.

I didn't trash Spyderco, I simply said their knives aren't for me. I did have problems with them, but I also had issues with several other knives. I also have not had issues with other knives from all of those companies.

In the end though, it is a fact that the Tri-ad lock in stronger. It doesn't matter if you believe a knife shouldn't be roughly used. Is it abuse to do what they do at CS? I'd say yes. I have made a few knives of my own and I have purposely broken them just to see how much they can take. I think it is a good test for overall toughness. It also proves almost without a doubt, that if a customer complains of lock problems, it must be an anomaly.

The CS designs may be ugly, but when you're buying a reliable knife made with decent materials for the price they have some of their stuff, you can't go wrong.

 

[singularity35]

I didn't trash Spyderco, I simply said their knives aren't for me. I did have problems with them, but I also had issues with several other knives. I also have not had issues with other knives from all of those companies.

In the end though, it is a fact that the Tri-ad lock in stronger. It doesn't matter if you believe a knife shouldn't be roughly used. Is it abuse to do what they do at CS? I'd say yes. I have made a few knives of my own and I have purposely broken them just to see how much they can take. I think it is a good test for overall toughness. It also proves almost without a doubt, that if a customer complains of lock problems, it must be an anomaly.

The CS designs may be ugly, but when you're buying a reliable knife made with decent materials for the price they have some of their stuff, you can't go wrong.

Really?

I gotta say, I sold all my Spydercos. Their knives are little toys to me. I don't like their philosophy of "knives are tools to only cut with" because models like the military are just not what I would expect to use in the military. They just aren't tough enough. I even had them falling apart with light EDC use. I loved the materials but the overall durability doesn't even come close to CS.

 

[Ankerson]

Really?

That's what I read too....

I have a rather large variety of knives as you know and haven't had any of those fall apart on me...

Sounds like someone has been drinking too much company Cool-Aid....

 

[europeanoutdoorsman]

Well, go over to the Spyderco sub-forum and if anyone says anything not in line with what people thing, you'll get flammed. I am just giving my experience. If you don't like it, it isn't called flaming.

Some people hate Cold Steel. I have 2 Cold Steel folders and if you check my other posts in this sub-forum, you'll see that I don't really think CS is perfect either. Anyway, a knife at it's most basic form is a tool. To me, tools don't need to look good, it is a secondary factor. It only becomes a primary factor in presentations/collectibles.

Anyway, the topic of the thread is spine whacks. If you feel it isn't a good test, fine, but ultimately, some knives can handle it, some can't. It is a fact that using this test (other lock strength tests might show different results), that Cold Steel's/Demko's tri-ad lock is very effective. Even knives like the ZT0200 can't stand up against similar tests.

Another FACT is, when you have 2 surfaces rubbing up against each other, like traditional lockbacks, liner locks, or just about every other type of knife lock, you will get wear. Why? Because rubbing causes friction, friction causes material to be rubbed away. Over time, it will cause blade play. How much is dependent on how much material exists to begin with and how long the 2 surfaces rub together. Supposedly, the Tri-ad lock is designed to prevent this, but personally, I have not used the tri-ad long enough to see a difference. But, I have seen old, well made lockbacks have movement because the knife tang and lock bar were worn. I even have seen a Kershaw Skyline have the liner lock almost touch the opposite handle scale because of wear. Lockup was still good because of the way the lock/blade tang were designed. Again, I gave Spyderco as an example, but generally this is the downside to having a locking mechanism where the faces which creating the locking force, directly touch each other.

 

[singularity35]

blah blah blah....

You say a knife will fall apart in light EDC use, that's trashing it. Especially when it really doesn't. Whether it's Spyderco or any other brand.

Here it is again.

I gotta say, I sold all my Spydercos. Their knives are little toys to me. I don't like their philosophy of "knives are tools to only cut with" because models like the military are just not what I would expect to use in the military. They just aren't tough enough. I even had them falling apart with light EDC use. I loved the materials but the overall durability doesn't even come close to CS.

And for the record, look at my reply to jaytaylor and read what I said about spine whacks.

 

[Bob6794]

Maybe people are so mad about spine whack tests because their ultra expensive ultra trendy knives don't pass them (much of the time). I don't think cold steel's marketing is very cool, but their products are strong. Stronger than many knives 10x the price. Back locks etc (triad), bolt action locks etc (axis) are simply stronger locks. And don't even say "a knife is for cutting, that's all you should do with it" if that were true we would only have sheepsfoot blades or blunted tips. Many things need to be pierced to be cut. Piercing puts pressure on the spine. I want a lock that won't guillotine my fingers.

Nope, don't have any ultra expensive, ultra trendy knives. Most expensive knife I have is a kershaw tremor (unless you count my leatherman I used to own and SAKs) which I picked up for around $25. My gripe with the spine whack tests like what this guy did was he basically used the knives as a hammer which is not realistic for what you do with a knife. A decent whack to the spine to test it I can understand someone doing to test it if they wanted to know if it close if you accidentally did something stupid (something I still wouldn't do). But a full fledge hit against concrete multiple times to make a knife fail proves nothing to me as it's a very unrealistic scenario.

But maybe this is just me I was raised using SAKs so I don't do anything like apply pressure to the blade which would make it collapse on purpose, to me it is a locking mechanism is a SAFETY mechanism. I don't do anything on purpose that apply pressure to the blade in any way that would make it want to close unless that was my intent. I can safely say I can't think of a single instance in which I relied on the locking mechanism to allow me to do something that a slip joint would allow me to do. Don't mistake what I saying as me bashing a strong locking mechanism, thats a good thing and it's always welcome I just don't point in this type of testing and the way it was done.

 

[Sadden]

I'm not following the argument. But I am going to add a statement.

In my opinion I feel that spine whack and overstrike tests are valid and reasonable measure of a locks strength. I'm not talking about hammering the spine against concrete but giving the spine a solid rap against a board the lock should hold. Whether its a 25 or 250$ folder. I feel that that is realistic test to see if the knife will hold under normal use.

I have had other knives fail and close on my fingers under normal use. Never had a triad or axis lock do this. (very little experience with the axis lock here).

The Tri Ad lock brings its own problems though, no its not perfect. Anyone ever heard of them being referred too as the guillotine lock? Upon closing the knife when it gets down to the last inch or so the spring reengages and will pull the knife closed the rest of the way. Quite firmly. If your not used to it , it can take the tips of your fingers off.

 

[Bob6794]

Actually Sadden you seem to have stated what I was trying to say better than I did for the general gist of it.