Spyderco Manix 2 and Benchmade Griptillian - Next 2 test knives

[philwar]

Just curious, but why do you think the Manix 1 is stronger than the Manix 2? Because it makes a louder metal on metal clunk when it opens than the II? Just an assumption?

Because it's a lockback, and frankly the principle of the backlock seems most sound of all folding knives to me. With overstrikes and spine whacks, longitudinal pressure is directed where the knife is strongest, basically two steel hooks pulling on each other, stopped by a metal pin anchored in the frame. The more force is exerted, the stronger the hooks grab into each other.
During chopping, force is directed into the locking lever, which basically can't go anywhere as long as integrity is maintained (thru its pivot). The worst that can happen (and does happen) is it creates vertical blade play.
This principle is maintained in the Tri-Ad lock, but with the added advantage that pressure against the blade (chopping) is now distributed into the frame via the stop pin, instead of the locking lever. This, combined with the shape of the tang and the locking lever forms an auto-adjust mechanism, which (in theory) should eliminate blade play for a long time.

Spyderco usually only discontinues a knife because of poor sales or because enough people ask for a change.

Well you said it. People want change. They get Obama. They get the CBBL. It's definitely change. Just not necessarily better.

People ask for good slicers and full flat grinds so they make them.

Yep, better than any other brand I know.

They do what people want and what sells.

Exactly. Not necessarily make an objectively better knife.

Either way, the change was brought about because of the consumer so blaming Spyderco seems silly.

I can only speak for myself here, I am not blaming Spyderco for anything. To me, the Manix II was never a hard use knife, clearly (to me) it's not designed as such.

Spyderco also tests all their designs and I'm sure has broke many times more knives than everyone posting in this thread combined. I don't know why you would think they would put out a knife that consistently falls apart when they know it would result in a ton of warranty claims and bad press.

I'm sure they test them. I am curious exactly how the Manix II was tested, especially considering your next point:

They are one of the few companies that actually test their knives and give them ratings and the CBBL gets their highest rating.

I am sincerely interested in finding out what the tests are made up of, and what the ratings indicate. I also wonder how a CS AL would fare in their tests (as far as reliability and toughness are concerned).

In the end it probably doesn't matter much what happens. A new video of a Manix II passing this test with flying colors won't negate this video where it broke (with a loose pivot) in the eyes of the doubters.

Give people a bit more credit. Even Cold Steel is not hated as much here as they were only a short 6 months ago. There may be good reasons for the failure, and (again, just speaking for myself) this would not sway me either way if I was about to buy the knife. I already did, and I'm not worried or disappointed.

And the fans aren't going to let one video of a lock failure with an obvious problem going into it sway their confidence of the lock until there is more proof and a larger sample size than 1.

I don't give the die-hard Spyderco fans much credit in this regard. NOTHING is going to sway them. Ever. And I guess that's fine too, it just makes discussing sensitive issues like these with them pointless.

I would have no problem accepting the CBBL is not a hard use lock if I saw some more evidence that shows it fails consistently without a loose pivot. But I'm not going to say it is weak when it failed so easily and had an obvious issue at the beginning of the test.

In general you could argue that one test of one knife does not constitute proof, and formally speaking you'd be correct. But Jim's video's were done fairly, I think we all agree on that. There was no malice, and no bias that we could see.
More importantly, this issue is only as important to you as you choose to make it, same goes for all of us. If you'd never seen this video, you'd still be perfectly happy with your Manix (not sure you own one, just guessing ) Now you feel you have to defend the knife and Spyderco but there's no need. I've said it before, the test really has no relevancy for 99% of potential buyers because even IF the lock is structurally unfit for such use, it's never gonna matter because those users are not going to use their Manix II that way. They never were, so it was never going to matter.

It would be different if Spyderco made the same type of claims that Cold Steel does. They don't. They're not at all interested. And I'm fine with that, I like all my Spyderco's as much as my Cold Steels (one of them even more )

Peace!

 

[philwar]

I thought Spyderco said that the CBBL surpassed the original Manix it lock strength. Let me see if I can dig that up.

Now THAT would surprise, nay, astonish me. I would call BS on that.

 

[hardheart]

Exactly. Not necessarily make an objectively better knife.

what makes an objectively better knife?

 

[Josh K]

Now THAT would surprise, nay, astonish me. I would call BS on that.

I'm searching.... IIRC it was.

 

[philwar]

what makes an objectively better knife?

In the sense we're discussing here? With a tougher, more reliable lock. I'm assuming we all want that, even if we never use it to its max potential.

 

[hardheart]

I think you can have an objectively better lock, but not an entire knife. At least, not among the ones we're discussing. The axis, bbl, and tri-ad are all ambi, require only one hand to operate, and don't affect the overall weight a bunch. Reliability & strength alone could be determining factors. But the knives as a whole are different steels, different thicknesses, different clips, different finishes, different handle materials, different sizes, etc. A overall best just isn't going to come about, imo. Now make a ~$80 tri-ad with a 'better' steel in stonewashed finish and a clip that doesn't eat through your pockets, and I'll change my tune.

 

[singularity35]

I hope there's an emerson to be tested sometime soon.

 

[3Guardsmen]

None of the two original Manixs (Manii) and Mini-Manix I had would pass a hard spine tap test. :grumpy: This disappointed the heck out of me, as I really loved those knives. I highly doubt that the original Manix's lock was better than the lock on the Manix 2. I'm sure the original Manix's lock was able to support a ton of weight before defeating, but in my experience, it couldn't withstand a hard spine tap (strength vs. reliability).

 

[Ankerson]

I hope there's an emerson to be tested sometime soon.

I don't have any.

If someone wants to donate one to testing with the chance it could break or be damaged then fine I will take it.

 

[hardheart]

That is what I'm looking for in these tests, 3G. Spyderco test by breaking locks on an increasing load, I believe under constant pressure. Sal and STR have posted about liner/frame locks not being able to reach the same level as compression, bbl, lockback and that also is where the tri-ad sits. Some statements about BM place it at around the same level.

For impact testing, which has been almost exclusively spinewhacks, just about everything has failed according to several reports, though I haven't seen a tri-ad yet (except for the one where the kid said he released the lock accidentally) Not much on overstrikes yet.

Not a lot of batoning either, and several have done it with the locks disengaged anyway.

 

[RevDevil]

Thanks for conducting these tests and posting the results. I "was" a Manix 2 fan before this and as an owner of one of them I often wondered about the locking mechanisms durability. The proof is in the pudding and I would rather have an American Lawman by my side after seeing these vids. Maybe thats why I own a Trailmaster and Recon Scout? I thought these were fair tests for all knives and were certainly not excessive abuse.

I'll gladly take your Manix 2 since you are no longer a fan

 

[philwar]

I think you can have an objectively better lock, but not an entire knife.

Agreed. What I said was meant in the context of our current debate on locks.

 

[zhangmaster12]

Not really.
The STOP PIN was obviously harder on the CS, or the rounder interface may have contributed to less wear.
The LOCK held up splendidly.:thumbup:

The stop pin is part of the whole locking mechanism no?
Just kiddin around here

if there was nothing wrong with the backlock, then why do we have the tri-ad lock?

I feel like the tri-ad is just an improved lockback but its still a lockback. The progression is like the old 1990 Camaro v-8 that gets ~240hp and the new 2011 v8 that gets 400+ (yes i know theres a displacement difference, i was just searching for an analogy). Hell, if spyderco caught hold of Demko and got his lock, we would all be singing praises of spyderco's "new" super lock.


I feel like Spyderco's knives have more like great cutting tools instead of a hard use knife. They tend to focus on being able to slice wickedly instead of splitting wood, especially with their new and great FFG Enduras/Delicas. And I believe its about damn time that they made the Manix 2 FFG like the old Manix 1.

I have handles the AD, but never cut anything with it, so I dont have first hand experience with the cutting performance.

Besides, for hard use, Izula. No lock to break

I cant think of any now, but are there any survival/hard use situations that would whack the spine of the knife? Or when would one realistically over-strike, its not like anyone is chopping with a folder. Im not bashing your tests Ank, this is a serious question. I love these tests because I like to know what my knives are capable of doing, especially fixed blades.

Hey Ank, how about some stabbing tests? Sacrifice your fingers for the knife society! Thats probably the most realistic lock-test. :thumbup:. But seriously, some stabbing tests would be awesome.

 

[hardheart]

the overstrikes seem to have come from Demko's tests on the Espada & Rajah. With those knives, there's a realistic shot at it with an extra few inches of handle. The test has carried over to other models, but no, I personally don't see a way to do it when holding a 4 or 5 inch handle properly without busting knuckles.

 

[Ankerson]

the overstrikes seem to have come from Demko's tests on the Espada & Rajah. With those knives, there's a realistic shot at it with an extra few inches of handle. The test has carried over to other models, but no, I personally don't see a way to do it when holding a 4 or 5 inch handle properly without busting knuckles.

Try it with a few of your knives and see what happens.

Like I posted before I broke my 1st folder back in the late 70's with overstrikes.

That was a Buck 110.

 

[zhangmaster12]

the overstrikes seem to have come from Demko's tests on the Espada & Rajah. With those knives, there's a realistic shot at it with an extra few inches of handle. The test has carried over to other models, but no, I personally don't see a way to do it when holding a 4 or 5 inch handle properly without busting knuckles.

Ah, i forgot about those Behemoths. I think I kind of just push those out of my mind because I see so point for them...

Yea, there are danger of overstriking with those, cause the handles are so damn big as well!

 

[JNewell]

It does because it really jars the locking mechanisms, puts a lot of force on the lock doing that. You can total a folder in a very short time doing them that's why I limit it to 5 hits only. I have destroyed more than a few of them over the years doing that. The 1st one I killed was a Buck 110 back in the late 70's.

Interesting, I was wondering. Thanks.

 

[JNewell]

I cant think of any now, but are there any survival/hard use situations that would whack the spine of the knife? Or when would one realistically over-strike, its not like anyone is chopping with a folder. Im not bashing your tests Ank, this is a serious question. I love these tests because I like to know what my knives are capable of doing, especially fixed blades.

I was trying to think of some cases where I'd need to use spinewhacks while walking the dog in the woods today. I couldn't...if I need impacts, I would use the butt end of the (folded) knife, or the pommel end of a fixed blade, or a rock...or something else.

But that may be missing the point. Maybe Jim is just using the spinewhack to apply physical stress, not to simulate real world use. That would be reasonable, and in Phil's words, "I accept that."

 

[hardheart]

Try it with a few of your knives and see what happens.

Like I posted before I broke my 1st folder back in the late 70's with overstrikes.

That was a Buck 110.

What were you doing? With a comfortable 4 finger grip on an LB-125, there's less than an inch of handle in front of my index finger. Plus, for me, the blade is too short/light to chop with.

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

If you'd never seen this video, you'd still be perfectly happy with your Manix (not sure you own one, just guessing ) Now you feel you have to defend the knife and Spyderco but there's no need.

Nope I don't have one. I am also still perfectly happy with my S90V user and I don't feel like I have to defend it or Spyderco as I still have total confidence in my knife. I'm not even a die hard Spyderco fan and only like 4 or 5 models. But when I keep reading people saying 'thanks for the video, I no longer trust my Manix 2' or 'I was going to buy a Manix II but now I'm going to pass' it just makes me shake my head. That kind of statement is just silly based on one knife which had a loose pivot and effected the lock's tolerances. If it turns out there is some weird problem with the lock and it's not as strong as the design should be, then so be it. I don't believe it but I would accept it if that were the case. But ruling out a knife that you like because of one failure (that had a problem going in) just doesn't make any kind of sense to me. That is the only reason I keep saying to give it a chance. I guess I shouldn't care and instead should offer to take all those dangerous Manix II knives off of people's hands for their safety. I will even pay shipping!

The guy on the Spyderco forum that stabbed his Manix II through a car door and hood over 50 times and only broke off about a 1/16" off the tip of the knife sounds like what I would expect from the lock design.

And as far as customers being the reason the design changed, well that doesn't make this an Obama knife. It is still a great knife. But they can't make everyone happy and some people like the old one better while quite a few like the new one better. Like Sal likes to say 'not bad, just different.'