Spyderco Manix 2 and Benchmade Griptillian - Next 2 test knives

[Ankerson]

OK, wait and test the new model then.

I plan to. :thumbup:

Once the new improved model comes out I will buy one and test it using the same format.

I know by doing this that I will void the warranty as they don't endorse Over Strikes and prying.

But It will be tested anyway.

I will contact Eric and or Sal and make sure that I get one of the new models for testing, not one of the same ones that I already tested.

 

[philwar]

It's also fairly obvious they think your testing wasn't on the up and up.

They would HAVE to say this. There are other instances of knives failing tasks their manufacturer claims they should pass, and companies NEVER simply admit the fault is with the knife.
I think Eric's response is less than honorable. Hinting that Jim had some agenda is uncalled for and baseless, I say put up or shut up. If you can't bring yourself to offer a neutral and objective explanation for the knife's failure, then just remain silent, or state that you will thoroughly investigate the matter, but refrain from baselessly accusing others, unless you have some proof.
And that will not be forthcoming.

 

[jill jackson]

They would HAVE to say this. There are other instances of knives failing tasks their manufacturer claims they should pass, and companies NEVER simply admit the fault is with the knife.
I think Eric's response is less than honorable. Hinting that Jim had some agenda is uncalled for and baseless, I say put up or shut up. If you can't bring yourself to offer a neutral and objective explanation for the knife's failure, then just remain silent, or state that you will thoroughly investigate the matter, but refrain from baselessly accusing others, unless you have some proof.
And that will not be forthcoming.

That's what I'm getting at. We have seen the video Ankerson made and that's all. I would hope to see more and know more than that.
If the Manix 2 can pass I'd love to see it, beefed up or not. If it fails every time no matter what I'd like to see that as well.

 

[STR]

I've watched that video three times and I'm not seeing evidence he did more or pushed the Manix harder than he did others. In fact I could see that he obviously whacked the Recon 1 much harder than he did the Manix and I count the same number or prying tests with each knife plus or minus maybe, maybe one or two if you count some of the little starter jabs that he didn't really do anything with. It appears to me that he was harder on the SMF, and the Cold Steels because when you really look at the height and the force of some of the swings to tap those like the SMF and the Recon it appears to not only be louder when he hit those knives but a more forceful swing to me than the ones that defeated the Manix.

The Manix has a more delicate point. I suspect that the tip went in deeper just due to that simply from being thinner and easier to penetrate with the same or close to the same force. I do not see why anyone would be blaming someone as if they are doing that on purpose when it most likely more the knife and the specific edge and grind geometry of the model, combined with the arm force and weight of the knife. To touch on the part where Jim is all but accused of doing more damage to the knife after testing.. I'm not sure how much more he could do with a knife that has a busted lock. What else are you going to do with one when its broken? What'd you do Jimmy, drive your car over it a few times and wrap it in the obits for them.

Any knife that is rated as MBC and I assume you all know what that stands for, should damn sure withstand some spine whacks and overstrikes. No excuses.

STR

 

[Ankerson]

I've watched that video three times and I'm not seeing evidence he did more or pushed the Manix harder than he did others. In fact I could see that he obviously whacked the Recon 1 much harder than he did the Manix and I count the same number or prying tests with each knife plus or minus maybe, maybe one or two if you count some of the little starter jabs that he didn't really do anything with. It appears to me that he was harder on the SMF, and the Cold Steels because when you really look at the height and the force of some of the swings to tap those like the SMF and the Recon it appears to not only be louder when he hit those knives but a more forceful swing to me than the ones that defeated the Manix.

The Manix has a more delicate point. I suspect that the tip went in deeper just due to that simply from being thinner and easier to penetrate with the same or close to the same force. I do not see why anyone would be blaming someone as if they are doing that on purpose when it most likely more the knife and the specific edge and grind geometry of the model, combined with the arm force and weight of the knife. To touch on the part where Jim is all but accused of doing more damage to the knife after testing.. I'm not sure how much more he could do with a knife that has a busted lock. What else are you going to do with one when its broken? What'd you do Jimmy, drive your car over it a few times and wrap it in the obits for them.

STR

That's funny. ROFL

Drive my car over it. LOL

Maybe I could put one out on HWY 40 and let the traffic run over it for a few days.... ROFL

Heck I could call Channel 5 and have them tape the whole thing, you know the traffic hitting it and all.

Let me Email Debra Morgan and see what she says.

Please.......

They are repaving the road here so maybe if I throw them a few bucks I can get them to run over one a few times with a steam roller.

Then I could send it in to them in a regular envelope.

 

[jill jackson]

I've watched that video three times and I'm not seeing evidence he did more or pushed the Manix harder than he did others. In fact I could see that he obviously whacked the Recon 1 much harder than he did the Manix and I count the same number or prying tests with each knife plus or minus maybe, maybe one or two if you count some of the little starter jabs that he didn't really do anything with. It appears to me that he was harder on the SMF, and the Cold Steels because when you really look at the height and the force of some of the swings to tap those like the SMF and the Recon it appears to not only be louder when he hit those knives but a more forceful swing to me than the ones that defeated the Manix.

The Manix has a more delicate point. I suspect that the tip went in deeper just due to that simply from being thinner and easier to penetrate with the same or close to the same force.

STR

I wasn't saying he hit the Manix harder, only that I and some others have noticed that the Manix cut deeper on the stake cutting. Then there was a lot more wood at the bottom of the stroke. The knife was turned and twisted to pop these all the way off. Then there was a lot of blade play and the lock wound up failing. If I tested one I'd try to cut a bit more like the other knives did and not twist it so hard while in the cut. I also would make sure the lock was tight and seating well, but I'd go in with tight pivot for sure. I just have a feeling the Manix could do a lot better. Maybe it would break every time, but I sorta doubt it. As it is the knife loosened up a whole lot and then failed. Doesn't convince me that they all would.

Any new knife could not have a optimum pivot tightness for this test. The design of the ball lock easily could let the locking ball move with that kind of looseness. Then it gets off center and breaks the lock. So, I'm not 100% convinced the Manix can't pass this test, or at least all but the over-strikes (tip breakage too, I know it will fail there) and maybe it could those with a tight pivot? I say it deserves another chance and I hope it's given one.

 

[Ankerson]

I wasn't saying he hit the Manix harder, only that I and some others have noticed that the Manix cut deeper on the stake cutting. Then there was a lot more wood at the bottom of the stroke. The knife was turned and twisted to pop these all the way off. Then there was a lot of blade play and the lock wound up failing. If I tested one I'd try to cut a bit more like the other knives did and not twist it so hard while in the cut. I also would make sure the lock was tight and seating well, but I'd go in with tight pivot for sure. I just have a feeling the Manix could do a lot better. Maybe it would break every time, but I sorta doubt it. As it is the knife loosened up a whole lot and then failed. Doesn't convince me that they all would.

Any new knife could not have a optimum pivot tightness for this test. The design of the ball lock easily could let the locking ball move with that kind of looseness. Then it gets off center and breaks the lock. So, I'm not 100% convinced the Manix can't pass this test, or at least all but the over-strikes (tip breakage too, I know it will fail there) and maybe it could those with a tight pivot? I say it deserves another chance and I hope it's given one.

I was really less force because I was cutting the way out of the wood and the thin edge and blade profile let the knife do that easier than with most of the other knives. The Manix sliced through the wood very easy taking much less pressure when compared to most of the others. The AL also sliced through very easy because it was reprofiled to 30 degrees inclusive.

So it's really the opposite of what you thought you saw.

To really be fair the Manix went through less overall stress and shock than the other knives did because the lock had failed so early in the testing process. So I couldn't push it as hard as the other knives that I tested.

I didn't expect a hard use rated knife to fail the testing other than the tip breaking when I saw how thin the tip was.

Once I was done the liners were moving around and the whole knife was loose. I noticed that when I took the knife inside to tighten it up.

I tightened up the 4 screws, 2 pivot and 2 lock screws then checked to see if the knife still failed just like I posted before. It still failed and after 4 hits the lock broke (Guessing) and the knife was jammed open after the 5th spine whack.

After that I came in and got the camera and snapped a few photos then put the knife on my desk, that's were the knife sat until I got the email from Eric.

Eric told me to send in the knife with no further adjustments so that's what I did, as soon as I got his email I packed up the knife as requested without doing anything to the knife.

That is all there is to the whole thing, there is nothing more to tell.

 

[jill jackson]

I was really less force because I was cutting the way out of the wood and the thin edge and blade profile let the knife do that easier than with most of the other knives. The Manix sliced through the wood very easy taking much less pressure when compared to most of the others. The AL also sliced through very easy because it was reprofiled to 30 degrees inclusive.

So it's really the opposite of what you thought you saw.

No, what I saw was the Manix cut a lot deeper and you using it to pry thicker chunks of wood away. With a pretty hard twisting motion. Then it was very loose and ended up failing. There has been other comments on this as well. I just would have to see the Manix go in lock-tighted and used a tad bit less to pry with on the stake cutting before I'd be convinced 100%, it can't take it.

 

[Ankerson]

No, what I saw was the Manix cut a lot deeper and you using it to pry thicker chunks of wood away. With a pretty hard twisting motion. Then it was very loose and ended up failing. There has been other comments on this as well. I just would have to see the Manix go in lock-tighted and used a tad bit less to pry with on the stake cutting before I'd be convinced 100%, it can't take it.

It was a lot less believe me, my hand wasn't even sore and my arm wasn't tired after I was done with the testing like all the other knives except the AL, it also cut easy.

 

[jill jackson]

It was a lot less believe me, my hand wasn't even sore and my arm wasn't tired after I was done with the testing like all the other knives except the AL, it also cut easy.

OK, I do believe you but I'd still have to see more than one get it's lock broken before I decide it's an across the board deal.

 

[Ankerson]

OK, I do believe you but I'd still have to see more than one get it's lock broken before I decide it's an across the board deal.

Understandable. :thumbup:

I guess we will have to see what Spyderco does to the locking mechanism.

The Manix was a scalpel cutting though the wood I can tell you that.

 

[STR]

Jill this is pretty easy to figure out and its more the knife and how it was made than the cutter using it. Look at the RW1 and American Lawman and the CQC13 videos. The edges are a bit more obtuse on the Strider and American Lawman of these knives and the primary grind made for harder use on all three, and the Emerson being chisel grind with the edge really going to bite deeper for a left hander kind of fought Jim trying to make it take off bigger slices like the Manix or the Benchmade. On the RW1 and AL which both ended up being left a bit thicker for strength at the factory the tips as a result are going to be stronger also. This pans out in testing for all three.

What you have with both the Spyderco and the Benchmade that were tested are edges that flat out cut deeper because the primary grind and edge geometry allows them to bite deeper and take off bigger slices. I believe Jim even commented on how sharp that Benchmade was and you can see he is flicking sideways with it and the others. The wider deeper cuts are from the edge going deeper with the same force applied though, not really from anything Jim made happen on purpose. Thats why it appears that way because the blades allowed for it. The tips on both blades broke when prying too which also plays on the edge and primary grind geometry and the more delicate points as a result, which broke on the two deeper biting thinner profiled blades.

In the future Jim could kind of predict if he watches and know that when a knife bites that deep in slicing as the BM and Spydie did that its probably not really a blade to do much prying with at all because the end result is quite predictable.

STR

 

[Ankerson]

In the future Jim could kind of predict if he watches and know that when a knife bites that deep in slicing as the BM and Spydie did that its probably not really a blade to do much prying with at all because the end result is quite predictable.

STR

Yeah you are correct, most of the knives wore me out in the wood cutting stage.

 

[STR]

Yes. Edge geometry can be more important many times than the blade steel. The AUS8 is a known tough steel too compared to the others in the test and I'd say its the toughest of all of them even over the S30V RW1 but the RW1 is at a better thickness for serious hard use as it is. What I'm saying is if the AUS8 was that same blade thickness and grind as the Strider it would be even tougher in my opinion.

This is confusing to some and that comes up now and then in the Buck forum with questions as to how much easier it is to slice and cut with the Buck 110 bought at K-Mart compared to their Strider SnG that supposedly has superior blade steel. Well, it does have superior blade steel but the Buck has superior edge geometry for slicing so the Buck with the 420HC, although equipped with a lesser steel on paper actually outcuts the SnG in many tests. In a test like the wood slicing test the Buck would likely perform similarly to the Manix and Griptilian. Both were made for different things.

Another confusing issue with the hard use rating on the Spyderco is that the lock is what is rated that high. The blade grind is really not equipped to handle that same level of abuse as say the RW1 and certainly would not do the same things as that thicker more obtuse edged blade. If Spyderco really wanted to beef that knife up they'd have to change the way the blade primary grind geometry and edge profile are done and sell it more like the RW1 or SnG edges. They are not about to start doing that though because one of the things about their products is that Spydie sharpness people have grown used to.

What I'm saying is that many times you can tell at a glance which blade is going to be harder use. Look at the SnG or SMF or even a PT sometime and you see that the edges may be sharp as anything else but you are not going to be whittling on the deck with one without a reprofile to some degree. Strider did not have whittling and slicing in mind I don't think when he designed it. I believe he wanted something you could dig a trench with if you had to in a pinch or use to break up the dirt to dig a fox hole, not something you were going to be slicing tent stakes with mainly. It will do it but as Jim found out. It will flat wear you out compared to a different edge and grind profile of one of the other models.

STR

 

[jill jackson]

Well there we go, that about says all that needs to be said about these different types and designs of folders. Thanks STR pretty good information.

 

[stabman]

Some of you guys do surprise me at how determined you are to shoot down a potential real world occurrence though.STR

In the real world, I grab my knives by the handle with a full grip.
This means that if I cut past what I am cutting, or it gives too easily, my FINGERS are what will be taking the overstrike, not any part of the knife.
Maybe other people are grabbing the knife in some odd way where this isn't the case, or maybe their hands are tiny; I don't know.
But for me, no matter what I have cut, no matter what way the blade has slipped, the overstrike thing has never happened.
THAT'S why I call it an irrelevant "test" for "real world" use.

 

[STR]

In the real world, I grab my knives by the handle with a full grip.
This means that if I cut past what I am cutting, or it gives too easily, my FINGERS are what will be taking the overstrike, not any part of the knife.
Maybe other people are grabbing the knife in some odd way where this isn't the case, or maybe their hands are tiny; I don't know.
But for me, no matter what I have cut, no matter what way the blade has slipped, the overstrike thing has never happened.
THAT'S why I call it an irrelevant "test" for "real world" use.

Whatever man. Apparently you have not owned some knives with big guards on them and ample handle that easily allow the fingers to get in behind the guards or move back on the handle. Its quite easy to get in behind a guard or move the hand back on a large handled knife for more leverage which leaves some handle out exposed at times and depending on the length of the handle. I really don't care that you don't buy it. I really don't care that you don't see it potentially possible for someone to grab your wrist when you've just pulled your knife out in a defensive situation and then after trying to control your arms and hands slam the knife into a banister either overstriking it or hitting your knuckles on it or both to try to make you drop it to lose control of it so they can take it from you. Others see it. All it takes is one real world occurrence to make it a valid test. If one police officer in one town somewhere in the world had it happen one time thats all it takes. Forget the one single scenario I pointed out earlier.

I just sited one example that came to me first. These knives are many times used in combat, in law enforcement, and by others in various ways. Its not all about you and your single experience. If you guys that don't see it can't visualize it just because its never happened to you I'm happy for you man. I'm not the one that came up with the test. I'm not the one that named it overstrike, which got its name from what occurs.

STR

 

[stabman]

Whatever man. I really don't care that you don't buy it. I really don't care that you don't see it potentially possible for someone to grab your wrist when you've just pulled your knife out in a defensive situation and then after trying to control your arms and hands slam the knife into a banister either overstriking it or hitting your knuckles on it or both to try to make you drop it to lose control of it so they can take it from you.
STR

Way to be dismissive of others experiences. Nice.
As for defensive situations, well, I HAVE had my knuckles bashed during training with training knives, so I guess THEY passed the "overstrike" test.:thumbup:
I don't see why you are getting so emotionally involved in tests which aren't even yours. Certainly don't see why you'd be involved enough to resort to what can only be construed as dismissive insults.
Oh well, I guess whatever floats people's boat, right?
Peace out y'all!

 

[STR]

Way to be dismissive of others experiences. Nice.
As for defensive situations, well, I HAVE had my knuckles bashed during training with training knives, so I guess THEY passed the "overstrike" test.:thumbup:
I don't see why you are getting so emotionally involved in tests which aren't even yours. Certainly don't see why you'd be involved enough to resort to what can only be construed as dismissive insults.
Oh well, I guess whatever floats people's boat, right?
Peace out y'all!

Oh listen to you. What 10 posts out of how many now is emotional involvement? You have 27 posts. I guess that means you are more emotionally involved than I am? Please. As for dismissive. You dismissed my experience, came in here convinced its not possible how many times now? No the tests are not mine but I've seen some things that elicited a response out of me. I was thanked for it both privately and publically also. If you've had your knuckles cracked then you have seen enough to already know that it is certainly possible that in a situation, one of probably several that someone could also get theirs bashed and then as the knife loosens and even shifts in the hand perhaps suffer over strike situations that could potentially defeat the lock.

Also, I really don't see anywhere that you were insulted by me. I simply told you that its not all about you or anyone person. Your experience is valid as its own experience but just because you have never cut yourself does not mean it can't happen. If thats an insult then I'd say thicken that skin some. I'm not trying to dismiss your experiences as invalid by saying its not all about your one experience. But really I'm not interested in a going back and forth issue with you or any reading between the lines here. I got involved mostly because to be perfectly honest with you I was surprised and someone bothered by the response from Spyderco. A lock they rated highly failed a test and rather than man up they come in here making baseless accusations. That warrants some replies and mine happen to be some of them. Its that simple man.

No offense was meant to be insulting to you. :thumbup:

STR

 

[stabman]

I got involved mostly because to be perfectly honest with you I was surprised and someone bothered by the response from Spyderco. A lock they rated highly failed a test and rather than man up they come in here making baseless accusations. That warrants some replies and mine happen to be some of them. Its that simple man.

No offense was meant to be insulting to you. :thumbup:

STR

Okay.
As for Spyderco's response, well, have any of us seen the knife in question other than them and Ankerson?
It seems like YouTube now trumps a reputation for integrity established over decades. That's a development which makes me a little sad, to tell the truth.
I cannot say for sure what the full story is, but neither can the rest of us here. We're all just observers to what is becoming a drama almost worthy of daytime television.