Spyderco Manix 2 and Benchmade Griptillian - Next 2 test knives

[LorenzoL]

Okay.
As for Spyderco's response, well, have any of us seen the knife in question other than them and Ankerson?
It seems like YouTube now trumps a reputation for integrity established over decades. That's a development which makes me a little sad, to tell the truth.
I cannot say for sure what the full story is, but neither can the rest of us here. We're all just observers to what is becoming a drama almost worthy of daytime television.

:thumbup:

 

[singularity35]

Okay.
As for Spyderco's response, well, have any of us seen the knife in question other than them and Ankerson?

Less than gentlemanly of Eric to make accusations with no evidence, IMHO. I have also seen Spyderco make accusations regarding a knife and their warranty.

It seems like YouTube now trumps a reputation for integrity established over decades.

Transparency would help, instead of "damage control" through an attempt to discredit Ankerson and his test. Obituary pages indeed.

That's a development which makes me a little sad, to tell the truth.
I cannot say for sure what the full story is, but neither can the rest of us here. We're all just observers to what is becoming a drama almost worthy of daytime television.

Brand loyalists and Spyderco themselves are what made this a circus. If it weren't for a lot of people coming out and trying to make excuses for the knife,this wouldn't have gone the way it has. Asking what went wrong and what can be done about it would always be the better response, instead of hiding behind the brand and trying to invalidate the tests.

 

[LorenzoL]

So, basically, because of one test, on one knife, by one person we should forget about everything Sal and Eric stand for?
I have been carrying/using a Manix 2 since it came out and have zero complaints. I do not consider it a heavy-duty folder but I cannot see how it would fail me in normal use.
It is a $70 folder weighing just over 4 oz. for Pete's sake!

 

[singularity35]

So, basically, because of one test, on one knife, by one person we should forget about everything Sal and Eric stand for?

As valuable for me as Ankerson's tests, is the way Spyderco is handling this.

I do not consider it a heavy-duty folder

But they are marketing it as an MBC rated folder.

"A recipe for folding knife success: Start with hard-use rated lock. Add a blade made of exotic high carbon steel. Manufacture it in Golden, Colorado using precise tolerances then add a healthy dash of American innovation. These ingredients are the Manix2, a concoction of solo features when combined make one of the strongest knives from Spyderco to date."

 

[philwar]

So, basically, because of one test, on one knife, by one person we should forget about everything Sal and Eric stand for?

It seems like YouTube now trumps a reputation for integrity established over decades.

Strawman. No one said this. Spyderco fanbois are arguing the opposite position: Spyderco has a stellar reputation - which it has - and mistakes are impossible, are in fact taboo to even suggest. To them, it's much more likely that Jim got hold of a faulty speciment than that the M2 simply failed a treatment that some other knives survived. It's just too much to bear. Any other brand, fine, just not Spyderco.

I am a Spyderco fan. This won't influence my buying decision one iota, either way. Spyderco's rep is untarnished IMHO, except for the less than professional response Jim received in this forum. The world is not ending guys, and neither is Spyderco (though it seems for many here this pretty much amounts to the same thing). Spyderco will only improve from this, it that's even possible.

 

[singularity35]

Strawman. No one said this. Spyderco fanbois are arguing the opposite position: Spyderco has a stellar reputation - which it has - and mistakes are impossible, are in fact taboo to even suggest. To them, it's much more likely that Jim got hold of a faulty speciment than that the M2 simply failed a treatment that some other knives survived. It's just too much to bear. Any other brand, fine, just not Spyderco.

I am a Spyderco fan. This won't influence my buying decision one iota, either way. Spyderco's rep is untarnished IMHO, except for the less than professional response Jim received in this forum. The world is not ending guys, and neither is Spyderco (though it seems for many here this pretty much amounts to the same thing). Spyderco will only improve from this, it that's even possible.

Well said!

 

[Eric Glesser]

I will not validate Mr. Ankerson’s hard use test.

To date we’ve never had a Manix 2 comeback with lock failure (besides Jim’s).

Ball Bearing locks failure rate of return is around 0.0005%, that’s 5 out of 10,000 pieces over years of sales in the field.

I hope these statistics add a little more credit to the real world hard use and true value of the Manix 2.

 

[OrdnanceBubbaUSMC]

The sad fact is the tests Ankerson did to these knives - is not even that rough and definitely not extreme. There is no excuses.

It does not matter if you will ever encounter a scenario where overstrikes or spine-whacks will occur, the different tests are just going after the basic understanding of how tough/durable are the knives? How good is the lock mechanism? It's cheesy to write it off by going over each scenario to find which one you think would never happen in real life or to try to find a case where he was harder on one knife than the other.

Only knife I would expect to fail like this is a cheap $20-30 China model. I put a 1999 Endura through much worse (pretty brutal to a 2004 Native also), this is 2010 with a more expensive model with promise of good construction and a tough, patented lock mechanism. Who wouldn't be disappointed?

I watched so many knives and other things get crazy hard use and abused even just for the fun of it while on deployments, these tests should be a cake-walk for these knives.

 

[jylong_away]

I will not validate Mr. Ankerson’s hard use test.

To date we’ve never had a Manix 2 comeback with lock failure (besides Jim’s).

Ball Bearing locks failure rate of return is around 0.0005%, that’s 5 out of 10,000 pieces over years of sales in the field.

I hope these statistics add a little more credit to the real world hard use and true value of the Manix 2.

Eric,

Is it possible to find out what the modification you'll be making to future M2 production is?

I'm not asking to be confronting or challenging or anything - I honestly just want to know as an end-user who owns four M2's of various kinds.

More specifically, I really want to find out if it's a modification that can be done in an after-market fashion to the current M2 units that I own (eg. if it's a mod to the bearing casing, whether I can buy the part, etc).

As I've mentioned sporadically in my posts around BF and SF, warranty returns have become a real issue, due to Customs tending to seize any smooth-action knife that comes through via the UPS service as a 'flick knife'. Because of that, being able to buy the part would make a huge difference...

Dave

 

[LorenzoL]

The sad fact is the tests Ankerson did to these knives - is not even that rough and definitely not extreme. There is no excuses.

It does not matter if you will ever encounter a scenario where overstrikes or spine-whacks will occur, the different tests are just going after the basic understanding of how tough/durable are the knives? How good is the lock mechanism? It's cheesy to write it off by going over each scenario to find which one you think would never happen in real life or to try to find a case where he was harder on one knife than the other.

Only knife I would expect to fail like this is a cheap $20-30 China model. I put a 1999 Endura through much worse (pretty brutal to a 2004 Native also), this is 2010 with a more expensive model with promise of good construction and a tough, patented lock mechanism. Who wouldn't be disappointed?

I watched so many knives and other things get crazy hard use and abused even just for the fun of it while on deployments, these tests should be a cake-walk for these knives.

Then how do you explain that there have been no reports of Manix 2s failing, either on this forum or on others?

 

[GrinderMcgee]

They would HAVE to say this. There are other instances of knives failing tasks their manufacturer claims they should pass, and companies NEVER simply admit the fault is with the knife.
I think Eric's response is less than honorable. Hinting that Jim had some agenda is uncalled for and baseless, I say put up or shut up. If you can't bring yourself to offer a neutral and objective explanation for the knife's failure, then just remain silent, or state that you will thoroughly investigate the matter, but refrain from baselessly accusing others, unless you have some proof.
And that will not be forthcoming.

Got around to catching up.My thoughts exactly.

The pivot became loose and the lock was overcome. None of the other blades were adjusted, and this one had to remain constant with the others, whether or not the tester knew the knife had loosened. Folding knives can all be overcome, and some are just upset to think their favorite didn't come out on top this round.

Jim Ankerson is one tester, but certainly doesn't deserve the criticisms for sharing his demos. And the public response left a bad taste in my mouth.

I enjoy several of my Spyderco knives regardless, and will continue to do so.

 

[OrdnanceBubbaUSMC]

Then how do you explain that there have been no reports of Manix 2s failing, either on this forum or on others?

Could be many reasons, who knows really?

How many people use a knife beyond little mundane tasks that any little folding knife could do?

How many people are simply collectors?

How many report a part of their knife breaking after giving it some rough use?

I know I've never reported one or heard of any friends/co-workers doing so.

Only thing for certain is the knife should have passed the tests without the lock failing. They should eat some humble-pie and just fix the design before making any lame excuses. Unless the word is they can't re-produce the failure scenario with the same type of testing. In which case, we could then say Mr. Ankerson just received a bad sample, and we can look forward to seeing another one easily pass the same tests in the future.

 

[Ankerson]

Then how do you explain that there have been no reports of Manix 2s failing, either on this forum or on others?

Maybe because nobody else tested one like I did outside of Spyderco.

5 Over Strikes followed by spine whacks broke the lock on the one I tested so if anyone else wanted to try it, well you know it's up to them.

Just make sure you hold the knife so you don't get cut.

 

[Eric Glesser]

Btw if you haven’t heard, I will not validate Mr. Ankerson’s “hard use test”.
The immediate small improvement I spoke of was to just add a little more wear and tear to the ramp to withstand a little better in multiple overstrikes against hard surfaces, this action will still most likely damage or break the knife.
Again, we’re talking about multiple overstrikes against hard surfaces and this is not an activity we recommend for our folding knives, and we don’t rate our hard use folders based on this test.
Also, the Manix 2 has never had a lock returned due to wear and tear so we had extra room to move.
The Ball Bearing locks wear and tear is tremendous. We estimate our return rate on wear and tear failure (vertical play because of wear on the tang) is around 0.0003% - just a few every 10,000 pieces. This is over years of sales in the field.
This statistic just adds a little more credit to the real world hard use and true value of the Manix 2.

 

[Ankerson]

The immediate small improvement I spoke of was to just add a little more wear and tear to the ramp to withstand a little better in multiple overstrikes against hard surfaces, this action will still most likely damage or break the knife.
Again, we’re talking about multiple overstrikes against hard surfaces and this is not an activity we recommend for our folding knives, and we don’t rate our hard use folders based on this test.

So in effect what you are trying to say is that the knife even after you make the improvements still won't be able to take over strikes am I correct?

What about the tip, are you going to do anything about that to make it stronger?

 

[jylong_away]

Btw if you haven’t heard, I will not validate Mr. Ankerson’s “hard use test”.
The immediate small improvement I spoke of was to just add a little more wear and tear to the ramp to withstand a little better in multiple overstrikes against hard surfaces, this action will still most likely damage or break the knife.
Again, we’re talking about multiple overstrikes against hard surfaces and this is not an activity we recommend for our folding knives, and we don’t rate our hard use folders based on this test.
Also, the Manix 2 has never had a lock returned due to wear and tear so we had extra room to move.
The Ball Bearing locks wear and tear is tremendous. We estimate our return rate on wear and tear failure (vertical play because of wear on the tang) is around 0.0003% - just a few every 10,000 pieces. This is over years of sales in the field.
This statistic just adds a little more credit to the real world hard use and true value of the Manix 2.

Eric,

Firstly, thanks so much for taking time to address my question. Really appreciate it...

Now to show how much of a 'noob' I am when it comes to knife anatomy. Can someone describe to me which part of the knife he's referring to as the 'ramp'?

Is it the portion of the tang which contacts the ball bearing? Or the portion of the spacer with the grove that the bearing sits in?

Or, given my level of knowledge, none of the above?

Dave

 

[MORIMOTOM]

Eric,

Firstly, thanks so much for taking time to address my question. Really appreciate it...

Now to show how much of a 'noob' I am when it comes to knife anatomy. Can someone describe to me which part of the knife he's referring to as the 'ramp'?

Is it the portion of the tang which contacts the ball bearing? Or the portion of the spacer with the grove that the bearing sits in?

Or, given my level of knowledge, none of the above?

Dave

i have no clue.

im glad you asked first instead of me.




what a noob....

 

[Jason B.]

I haven't kept up on this thread but simply from this last page I can see Jim is taking undeserved heat for his tests. Its also sad to see spyderco sounding like a broken record, IMO the knife failed when whittling wood. The knife became loose because the factory failed to apply thread locker, something that should be standard.

You say this knife was not designed to take this kind of abuse but yet you give it a "stronger lock"? so what's the point of a stronger lock if its not any stronger?

When I needed warranty work I heard the same excuses and same poor treatment. I even received a phone call where I was talked to like a knife noob, nothing better than getting put down by a company your giving money too.

Customer service means the customer is always right, not give numbers, give excuses, then discredit the customer.

It was a test, learn from it but don't beat the guy up that did the test.

 

[Scott Neelan]

I was originally content to just lurk around this thread rather than wade right into the mess, because I could see the merits of all the arguments thus far. But I have to say one thing right now:

I will not be buying ANY Spyderco products now that I've seen Eric Glesser's posts in this thread. It has nothing to do with the products themselves, but the complete lack of understanding of how to deal with the situation. A simple statement saying that the knife failed under stress it's not designed to handle would've sufficed. A "we'll look into it" would've sufficed. But to attempt to discredit and dismiss the results of this test as he has shows the company, or at least someone very high up in the company, doesn't care enough about its consumers and their concerns to even act interested.

And I choose to spend my hard-earned money with companies that at least pretend to care.

EDIT: It's worth noting that this entire thing seems to run counter to Sal's "leave shiny footprints" motto. I know that rose out of an entirely different issue, but it would seem that Eric's responses in this thread are rather hostile when perhaps a cooler head should be involved.

 

[singularity35]

Hey Eric, it's that thing about not shooting the messenger...shiny footprints? I actually wanted to find out what was wrong if anything, but your reaction to this in the light of your previous reputation for "integrity" and "gentlemanly behavior", is somewhat surprising and additionally may, in fact be revealing of the true nature of things.