Spyderco Manix 2 and Benchmade Griptillian - Next 2 test knives

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I edited my video on YT to warn people not attempt to do any over strikes on their Manix 2 and added that Spyderco will be redesigning the lock. :thumbup:

In the end it's great for current and future Spyderco customers. :)
 
MORIMOTOM said:
ill go ahead and throw this out there now.

the 13 tested belongs to me, is dated 2005 and has the "thin" liners and lock.

all the pivot screws on my emersons, including the 13, are put in place with blue loctite. i do this, obviously, so the pivot will not self-adjust in most instances.

i have no doubt that jim's testing loosened the screw on the 13, loctite notwithstanding. impacts and vibrations will affect screw threads.

but total lock failure from a loose pivot? if i'm reading str's post correctly, that the loose pivot cannot be the only reason for the failure, then i agree. though it is an aggravating factor without a doubt.


i still like eric and spyderco, still like my manix 2, but i am pleased to know what it is capable of doing or not doing. i don't like it any less, and i accept that any design has its limitations.


thx for the post and results eric!
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Thanks Mark for loaning me the knife for testing. :D :thumbup:

It was really a great thing to do and in the end it passed my tests with flying colors as a hard use knife. :thumbup:
 
Why doesn't one's fingers block the knife from impact during an "overstrike" assuming the handle is held normally?
 
I guarantee I can devise and record my own "hard-use" tests that would destroy every single one of those knives.

But you'd likely say my definition of hard use isn't consistent with yours, and you'd want some sort of verification of the condition the knives were in before I started.

It's no different with these videos. Beyond a consistency of testing from knife to knife, there's just not a lot of quality nor quantity of hard and fast "facts" to apply to anything, not even as a useful rule of thumb.

It also seems more than a bit disingenuous to on one hand claim "it is what it is" neutrality while continuing to call attention to yourself through small yet frequent and thinly-veiled jabs disguised as helpful post-manufacturing feedback.
 
STR said:
Overstrikes can happen in real world use more so than spine whacks so to me they are more valid than a spine whack or even a spine tap is and Spyderco taps the spine so why the objection to an overstrike? At least you are trying to beef it up to correct for it though, in your defense. That much is good. I disagree with the stance that this test is invalid though as I feel there are times with this type of knife that an overstrike can certainly occur in some uses, like making small kindling or shavings when the knife suddenly goes through faster than you expected and you hit it in an overstrike. Heck I've done that myself on more than one occasion. I think five overstrikes is a valid test that most well made harder use knives should be able to take. Jim didn't wail away on them with full arm swings after all and certainly not with the force one overstrike would have if you smacked it good after putting some ummmph into a full arm slice through a piece of wood to make shavings!


STR
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So, when you're making shavings, do you swing the knife like it's an axe, hachet, or even chopper? I can see the pressure being applied to the knife and lock in a forceful downward cut, but it wouldn't come from any motion that would likely have the knife missing its intended target resulting in an overstrike(not how I was taught to cut, anyways). Wouldn't it make sense to place the knife against the material being cut while applying the cutting force? And even if you did decide to use your knife with a hacking motion, wouldn't you likely be holding onto the knife in a manner that gave you good control and a full grip on the handle?
 
AF said:
Why doesn't one's fingers block the knife from impact during an "overstrike" assuming the handle is held normally?
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+1. Maybe I'm missing something in regards to how it's being applied, but it doesn't make sense to me to use a folder in that manner.
 
flipe8 said:
Wouldn't it make sense to place the knife against the material being cut while applying the cutting force? And even if you did decide to use your knife with a hacking motion, wouldn't you likely be holding onto the knife in a manner that gave you good control and a full grip on the handle?
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Exactly.
I cannot see any real-world situation which would come close to an overstrike, except perhaps with the Rajah or large Espada folders.
Those things are so stupid big it would be possible to hold them in such a way where one could conceivably have an overstrike in a hacking motion.
For every other folder, no way.
 
flipe8 said:
So, when you're making shavings, do you swing the knife like it's an axe, hachet, or even chopper? I can see the pressure being applied to the knife and lock in a forceful downward cut, but it wouldn't come from any motion that would likely have the knife missing its intended target resulting in an overstrike(not how I was taught to cut, anyways). Wouldn't it make sense to place the knife against the material being cut while applying the cutting force? And even if you did decide to use your knife with a hacking motion, wouldn't you likely be holding onto the knife in a manner that gave you good control and a full grip on the handle?
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Its easy to have great control when you are fresh and just starting out but the more you cut and cut hard the more you lose that control and the care to keep it. After a while you get sloppier with it and eventually accidents happen. Thats why we call them accidents. No one said anything about the knife missing a target. I'm not talking about throwing the thing! Imagine you have been cutting up some 2 x 4s like Jime did and imagine there is already a split in the wood and you hit that split with the same force you have been putting into every cut before that only not knowing you don't need all that same force to get through that one cut because the wood is already split. What do you suppose would happen? I imagine if you are fresh and just getting started it will be as you said. I'll keep control and stop it before it swings out.

Still think you have all that control after you've done it a while? You are tired, your knife is dulled down some where its requiring more force to make the same cuts it made with less effort earlier and it may even have sap on the blade causing it to stick some and as a result you have to put more force into it to make it work now. That added inertia makes it that much harder to stop it in a slice if and when an accident happens as described above. Been there done that. Thats why we call them accidents. Only in a perfect world does one maintain picture perfect control and we don't live in that world. This is not really anything other than real world occurrences. I'm not saying I'm gods gift to knife slicing. I'm saying I'm human and I've hit the choil area on a knife on more than one occasion while using one in my half a century on the planet.


STR
 
Here. Watch this and pay particular attention to like 48 seconds in. Note what happens. Its that simple, that fast, and that easy and although this is not a perfect example its all I'm talking about when a potential overstrike can occur. With many knives today that have deep grooves and guard areas built into the design its not uncommon to see lots of handle still out there capable of hitting something before the hand or the fingers do but it is also quite possible that the knuckles would catch a lot of the brunt of the force in what would be an overstrike had the hand not been in the way. Still though this is all I envision because I've done this kind of thing myself in use.

http://www.youtube.com/user/jankerson1?feature=mhw4#p/u/3/j6ajL1BT8sU

STR
 
STR said:
Here. Watch this and pay particular attention to like 48 seconds in. Note what happens.STR
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Sorry, I'm not convinced. The "overstrike" is a destruction test, not a usage test.
 
AF said:
Sorry, I'm not convinced. The "overstrike" is a destruction test, not a usage test.
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For knives that are rated as hard use the over strike is a valid test. Knives that are really designed as hard use knives with strong locks will pass that test as my testing has shown on video.

7 out of 8 knives that I tested on video passed the over strike test so far. ;)

The testing format that I have developed is a valid series of tasks that a hard use knife should be able to pass without a problem. Each task is a test of different features of the knives, strengths and or weaknesses of the knives designs.

It's all combined in a short format less than 5 mins.

A hard use knife should be able to go through the whole series without stopping for adjustments or anything else.

If I have to stop the test at any point in the process for any reason the knife fails the test and won't be tested again on video and will be labeled as a failure and not a hard use knife.

  1. Cutting tests the pivot to see if it will loosen
  2. Over Strike tests the lock for shock to see if it take any shock.
  3. Spine Whack tests to make sure the lock is working and still in spec
  4. Batoning tests both the lock, structure and the pivot to see if will loosen up or the lock fails
  5. Light Prying tests the point strength to see if it's strong enough to handle it without snapping off
  6. Heavy prying further tests the the whole knife as a whole to see if everything is still in spec after all the tasks are completed.
 
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Jim's tests have revealed a weakness in the design and Spyderco have acknowledged this and have said they will address it immediately.

That's why I enjoy the company and will continue to buy and use their products. :thumbup:
 
Thanks Eric and Ankerson :)

Does the over strike refer to a chopping motion, or a hard spine whack?
 
wongKI said:
Thanks Eric and Ankerson :)

Does the over strike refer to a chopping motion, or a hard spine whack?
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Over-strike is coming down in a chopping motion and hitting the knife handle, right in front of your hand instead of the blade's edge.
 
A lot of guys overseas use folding knives for all types of things, usually they don't get babied and most would benefit from someone with more time and money (and/or donated knives) doing testing before hand. Many were disappointed when a knife would break from rather mundane tasks or they always had to come to me to sharpen the knife with a crappy steel. Too many just go by a brand name that their father or grand-father said was a good knife or one that looked the part and was cheap enough.

I think everyone already knows you shouldn't use a folding knife like this if you want to make sure it lasts long, you get your money worth, etc. For some people though there always comes a time when you have to get a job done and there is nothing else around, use your hands and teeth or be lucky you have a well-made, tough folding knife always in your pocket.

There seems to be a lot of whiners on here now compared to when I would visit all the time from 2002-2005, it's a shame. If people are not testing these things and demanding knives be made more and more durable, bullet-proof, with better edge retention ability, etc. we might as well have the same old 20 year old designs for $10 a piece made in China. Some people seem they would rather just pay for a cool marketing name and cool design and not really care if it can't do more than cut some string and envelopes.

If you really see it like that you should go to a local store or swap meet and get a $5 pocket knife and be all smiles, don't bother the other people who are interested in this stuff and tell them these tests are a waste of time, you need to look outside your own little world. It's not just a cute hobby for some people when it comes to owning tough, well-made knives.
 
I don't consider myself a whiner because I disagree with some of the methods used in the test. I'll also state I wish the M2 did better, but in this video that wasn't the case. IMO, the overstrike means nothing as its performed. Using Ankerson's/ STR's method is different than I would(and have) done it. In my real-life experiences, slippage and binding up against a knot would result in placing a higher amount of force on the lock than how it was shown on the video. Tip strength is what it is, but I've pried a few times with a Delica with no damage at all, so I think it's about technique, once again. I won't pry with a pocket knife if I can't get enough blade into the object being pried, but that's me.I still think its great companies are putting great rugged knives that don't break the bank and would hope these companies continue to do so.
 
wongKI said:
Thanks Eric and Ankerson :)

Does the over strike refer to a chopping motion, or a hard spine whack?
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Like Jill stated it's a chopping motion.

What that really does is put a tremendous amount of shock on the locking mechanism because the knife is hit right on or near the Pivot.

So what happens is all the energy from the swing is directly transferred to the blade of the knife adding the weight of the blade that is still wanting to move downward. The locking mechanism takes all the shock from the combined energy of the swing and the weight of the blades stored up energy. This really is the hardest test that a folder's locking mechanism can endure.

It's like a car running into a brick wall at 100 MPH with the driver not wearing a seat belt. We all know what happens in the end on that one.
 
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Thanks Jill and Ankerson. I confess that I myself don't see much value for a knife that can handle that, but I'm sure that there're those who do.

I'm really looking forward to the "improvements" on the Manix 2. Should be nice :)
 
wongKI said:
Thanks Jill and Ankerson. I confess that I myself don't see much value for a knife that can handle that, but I'm sure that there're those who do.

I'm really looking forward to the "improvements" on the Manix 2. Should be nice :)
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It's a valuable test because it goes directly to the locking mechanisms design on a hard use knife. A knife that can take the shock of the over strike test and also going through my series of tasks is going to serve you well in the future over a variety of uses.

This is only for knives rated as hard use though. ;)
 
call me crazy but I always hold my 4" blade folders at the very end of the handle and swing or hack at stuff. This could allow for an overstrike, good thing I'm not hacking at something real solid.
 
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