Spyderco, no longer the value it once was...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Sigguy said:
I read way more than I post but I have an opinion about this.

Spyderco does not have the value it once was due to pricing and marketing games geared at driving up profits.

Take for example "the worker" a G-10, steel frame, VG-10 blade, made in Japan for well over 200.00. Spyderco knows this is an absurd price so they call it a Sprint run, because they know that they could not maintain a solid demand on such an unexceptional knife. Just think about it for minute without getting emotional.

The second point I will bring out is the Para 2. A knife that is desirable by many and Spyderco knows it. This is one of their "bread" knives, a solid performer. Spyderco manipulates the market by limiting supply of the knives, only to offer a sprint run of a Para 2 with a different color of G-10, steel frame, a new steel at a ludicrous price. If Spyderco wanted, they could more than supply distributors with standard Para 2's but instead they follow a very calculating supply strategy to maximize profit.

Some people call this business, I call it greed. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Make no mistake, I am not a person that dislikes Spyderco's, in fact I have several, I just don't like the bit.
Click to expand...

This guy has it all figured out :rolleyes:. Reminds me of water cooler talk at my work regarding current events and controversy. "We didn't land on the moon", "the Martians took Hoffa"... The fact is we do not know what goes on behind closed doors ANYWHERE, and making assumptions leads to nowhere with no hard facts. It's a good thing that you said that it's just your opinion because there are dangers in assuming how anything is run without any first hand knowledge.

That price is now what we should expect with newly tooled G10 lockback folders from Japan (like the Brown G10 ZDP Stretch coming up). It's getting up there, sucks because I like these type of knives. I'm not going to make any assumptions as to why but all I know is that Sal has stated that the makers in Japan (who they have had a relationship with since the 80's) have raised prices, and also mentioned the power of their currency. Straight from the horse's mouth. Up to the individual to believe him or not. Up to the individual to make assumptions about greed too I guess.

One good thing I see coming from this thread is that I know for a fact that Sal and Co. are reading it and posts like it. It at least keeps them aware of pricing concerns as Spyderco is very much a grassroots company and rely more on word of mouth and the forums than the other bigger companies. They do welcome criticism, with that being said... Judging from the vast majority of the responses here, most disagree with the OP. The Japanese models going up though seem to be a concern shared by many, we'll see what happens.
 
Kudos to all of you have participated in this thread. Look at that, 12 pages in and we have all remained civil. Got passionate and opinionated but we kept it together. No angry reps, no fanboy trolls...just sharing our thoughts on the subject.

You gotta love how Spyderco allows these threads to remain open. This is General but it could get closed via a mod's request. Negative threads being fair game...that's being open...

If they have something to hide, this would have long been shutdown.
 
RevDevil said:
Sal has commented on this before at one point a few years back. He stated that the Para2 was a model that would sell for less because they were trying a different profit margin strategy. If anything, Spyderco has been extremely transparent through the years and continues to do so. They allow dealers the freedom to price the items accordingly. There are just too many variables unaccounted for in your example to reach a plausible explanation. We do not know the per unit price on the model, the cost of VG10, production schedule of the maker, or other factors that go into the price. A lot of people reduce a complicated thing to "VG10, G10 handles, steel liners and a lock back". That kind of deductive reasoning works for something, not so much for this.
Click to expand...

That is what the worker is, VG10, G10, & steel liners. It is very simple especially with CNC equipment set up in Japan. A person could buy a TV for the price of a Worker. Is a lock back knife really more complicated than a TV, no. Just think about it for a minute objectively.

Reasonable value is all the "plausible explanation" I need, because a person will never know true cost by a manufacture. If you feel that the "worker" is of reasonable value for VG-10 knife made is Japan, so be it. Maybe if it came with a lanyard bead or something I could see it.:D
 
Stays Sharp said:
Kudos to all of you have participated in this thread. Look at that, 12 pages in and we have all remained civil. Got passionate and opinionated but we kept it together. No angry reps, no fanboy trolls...just sharing our thoughts on the subject.

You gotta love how Spyderco allows these threads to remain open. This is General but it could get closed via a mod's request. Negative threads being fair game...that's being open...

If they have something to hide, this would have long been shutdown.
Click to expand...


Totally agree. I may not like what (I think):p Spyderco does, but I still like some of their knives. I love the PM2 by the way.
 
Kershaw, (Japanese owned company at that) has pretty much stopped producing folders in Japan. Cold Steel has as well. AL Mar knives have G10 ZDP knives MSRP'd at $300 going for $160 to $200 street value. Japanese knife companies like Rockstead charge a pretty penny for their wares. Is a folder that complicated? The Chinese copy high end knives for a fraction of the price after all.... Could it be because the Japanese have an economy and standards of living very similar if not higher than ours???... And charge for the services accordingly? How about this... if YOU want to get to the bottom of it, contact Moki or GSakai yourself and have them produce a simple lockback folder for you and see what they quote you. And if you decide to put it to market, see how much you have to tack on to make it reasonable for you to stay in business.
 
Sigguy said:
Respectfully disagree

Greed: intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food.

If you feel that being manipulated for profit maximization is not greed, I feel sorry for you.
Click to expand...

If you don't understand that every single successful corporation on the planet operates based on the same profit maximization principles as Spyderco then I feel sorry for you.
 
Stays Sharp said:
Kudos to all of you have participated in this thread. Look at that, 12 pages in and we have all remained civil. Got passionate and opinionated but we kept it together. No angry reps, no fanboy trolls...just sharing our thoughts on the subject.

You gotta love how Spyderco allows these threads to remain open. This is General but it could get closed via a mod's request. Negative threads being fair game...that's being open...

If they have something to hide, this would have long been shutdown.
Click to expand...



In a way I have always gotten a feeling that Spyderco encourages this type of discussion on the forums as it lets them know what they are doing right or wrong. Benchmade on the other hand has not been as open as shown by that whole MAP/UPP fiasco.
 
fq55 said:
In a way I have always gotten a feeling that Spyderco encourages this type of discussion on the forums as it lets them know what they are doing right or wrong. Benchmade on the other hand has not been as open as shown by that whole MAP/UPP fiasco.
Click to expand...

But good on BM for keeping those threads going. In fact the one or two times a thread closed there, it wasn't even a BM rep doing it.

That MAP fiasco is a very touchy subject and I can't fault the BM mod for not responding. Any response would have to come from above in a very corporate way knowing how BM is set up. We get responses from other company mods because their reps typically are (much) higher up the food chain.
 
Sigguy said:
I read way more than I post but I have an opinion about this.

Spyderco does not have the value it once was due to pricing and marketing games geared at driving up profits.

Take for example "the worker" a G-10, steel frame, VG-10 blade, made in Japan for well over 200.00. Spyderco knows this is an absurd price so they call it a Sprint run, because they know that they could not maintain a solid demand on such an unexceptional knife. Just think about it for minute without getting emotional.

The second point I will bring out is the Para 2. A knife that is desirable by many and Spyderco knows it. This is one of their "bread" knives, a solid performer. Spyderco manipulates the market by limiting supply of the knives, only to offer a sprint run of a Para 2 with a different color of G-10, steel frame, a new steel at a ludicrous price. If Spyderco wanted, they could more than supply distributors with standard Para 2's but instead they follow a very calculating supply strategy to maximize profit.

Some people call this business, I call it greed. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

Make no mistake, I am not a person that dislikes Spyderco's, in fact I have several, I just don't like the bit.
Click to expand...

Regarding the Para-Military2, limited production capacity at the Golden plant is certainly a factor in limited supplies compared to demand. Spyderco cannot just stop production on everything else and churn out regular production PM2. Other products need capacity and that includes catering to the Sprint Runs & Dealer Exclusives. You have to cater to all within the limited capacity. Eventually, this will sort itself out once the extra capacity comes online fairly soon.

The Worker G-10 Sprint Run at $175-$180 doesn't make sense and again I think it's the Japanese economic factor at play here. Look at the Battlestation also in VG-10/G-10 at $190-$200. This will also hold true for the upcoming Tatanka, Roc, Firefly and Mike Draper Folder.

With a lot of these initially overpriced models I suggest you wait it out even if it takes several months, from introduction to the market, to get one. Look at the Double Bevel with VG-10/G-10. Not too long ago it was going for $170 but now you can get it for $130 at several places.
 
Sigguy said:
That is what the worker is, VG10, G10, & steel liners. It is very simple especially with CNC equipment set up in Japan. A person could buy a TV for the price of a Worker. Is a lock back knife really more complicated than a TV, no. Just think about it for a minute objectively.

Reasonable value is all the "plausible explanation" I need, because a person will never know true cost by a manufacture. If you feel that the "worker" is of reasonable value for VG-10 knife made is Japan, so be it. Maybe if it came with a lanyard bead or something I could see it.:D
Click to expand...

Exactly my point, some people see the materials involved and nothing more. Taking a complex thing and trying to reduce it to the most basic terms and ideas (deconstructionist analysis or reductionism) does not always work well to identify the "why" aspect. I've read hundreds of posts with a similar perspective, it's material identification at best. To some people, they feel that a knife with specific materials no matter what should not be priced beyond a set dollar amount, regardless of everything else. These same folks have no idea what is going on behind the scenes that makes that product price out at what it does.

I do not pretend to have any special insight into what Spyderco, Kershaw/ZT, Emerson, or any of the other hundreds of companies do and why. I only try to apply a bit of understanding to what I're read Sal say time and time again, if the numbers do not add up for me, then I do not buy it. I keep it as simple as I can, much the same as you.

What I also believe is that Sal and Spyderco are about as transparent as it gets in understanding why a knife company chooses to do what they do, when, with whom, and for what reason. I mean, they can be like most other companies and not mention it at all. My point was that there are always a pile of variables that folks do not consider or care about, usually those are what makes the whole scenario come together.
 
Cost and "why" are irrelevant to the consumer. They exchange money for value received, they do not exchange money for costs incurred. There is a very meaningful discussion in marketing (which includes all aspects of product/service design and delivery) of delivering an end state to the customer, not a product. The classic example used in the original article was that when a person bought a drill bit, they didn't want a drill bit, they wanted a hole.

Now, in this case, for many of the knives bought and discussed here, the customer does not just want a sliced apple or an open box. That is because there comes with that some massive downward pressure on prices. If you simply need to accomplish a cutting task, then even Spyderco's most basic clipits are massively overpriced compared to the most value oriented matter-separators. All the talk of Kershaw bang for the buck would also fail this litmus test, if pure utility was the only metric. Benchmade with MAP, well, of course that's even worse.

The end state sought, the value the customer wants, comes from some intangibles. This is where the question of "Why $200 for VG-10?" comes in. There are answers to the question related to the costs, the limited production, the royalties, the intermediaries. But, absolutely none of that changes the fact that the knife has a VG-10 blade, or black G10 scales. If those features are viewed as pedestrian, if they do not add value for the customer, then the customer will not pay a higher price, even though costs demand that price. The customer doesn't care about covering costs, the customer cares about receiving value. And the costs do not ever have to result in value. In fact, most of the biggest failures in business are from that - spending money to produce something nobody really wanted to begin with. Thankfully for Spyderco, they rarely face that dilemma.
 
hardheart said:
Cost and "why" are irrelevant to the consumer. They exchange money for value received, they do not exchange money for costs incurred. There is a very meaningful discussion in marketing (which includes all aspects of product/service design and delivery) of delivering an end state to the customer, not a product. The classic example used in the original article was that when a person bought a drill bit, they didn't want a drill bit, they wanted a hole.

Now, in this case, for many of the knives bought and discussed here, the customer does not just want a sliced apple or an open box. That is because there comes with that some massive downward pressure on prices. If you simply need to accomplish a cutting task, then even Spyderco's most basic clipits are massively overpriced compared to the most value oriented matter-separators. All the talk of Kershaw bang for the buck would also fail this litmus test, if pure utility was the only metric. Benchmade with MAP, well, of course that's even worse.

The end state sought, the value the customer wants, comes from some intangibles. This is where the question of "Why $200 for VG-10?" comes in. There are answers to the question related to the costs, the limited production, the royalties, the intermediaries. But, absolutely none of that changes the fact that the knife has a VG-10 blade, or black G10 scales. If those features are viewed as pedestrian, if they do not add value for the customer, then the customer will not pay a higher price, even though costs demand that price. The customer doesn't care about covering costs, the customer cares about receiving value. And the costs do not ever have to result in value. In fact, most of the biggest failures in business are from that - spending money to produce something nobody really wanted to begin with. Thankfully for Spyderco, they rarely face that dilemma.
Click to expand...

Well said.

The OP brought on the question of does Spyderco have the value it once was? In my opinion, no but that is because I do not see the value in some of their knives.


Sal really needs to run some things by me before he gets that price gun out, or hire a cynical advisor who doesn't wear khaki slacks. :p 279.00 MSRP for the Worker, come on.
 
Tasmaniac said:
If you don't understand that every single successful corporation on the planet operates based on the same profit maximization principles as Spyderco then I feel sorry for you.
Click to expand...

We can agree to disagree but, since we both feel sorry for each other should we send cards or something? :D
 
some spyderco models may be more expensive than others, but spyderco still provides a huge range of high quality models for lower prices as well.

look at all the high quality, reliable models that are available for under $100. endura, original police, manix 2 and manix xl, matriarch, salt series, delica, endura and delica emerson wave, perrin street bowie, harpy, native, centofante, stretch...etc..
 
Sigguy said:
279.00 MSRP for the Worker, come on.
Click to expand...
I didn't pay a whole lot more than that for my two screw worker. That is a rare knife with significance in the evolution and development of the "tactical" knife, as well as being the first knife Spyderco sold. That means something to me, means I was wiling to pay to acquire it. The new Worker? To me, it's just some other sprint, and it doesn't even have a super steel. A solid meh for me at best, while I paid a slightly higher price for the same design, with arguably a worse build, inferior materials, and it was used to boot. Now, I'm just one person, but that's really the perspective everyone has (but change the details), not what the going rate is for the screws used to hold the knife together.

Of course, this is not restricted to Spyderco, or to knives.
 
Very interesting thread. Thanx much for all of the input.

I will say that our margins haven't changed in years. Most price increases are from vendors and those costs are passed on. I will say that few consider us greedy or calulating on our pricing. We never charge as much as the market will bear....we believe that is biting the hand that feeds you. Those that think so have no idea how we run our business or what our values are. I would suggest that they spend some time on the Spyderco forums, ask the questions and you will usually get truthfull answers.

I also think that, as metioned, it was a civil disussion. Something you all can be proud of.

Far more opinion that fact though. We're pretty transparent. "The goal is to be as consistent as the sun and as transparent as the air. That's how we build trust". Thanx again for the discussion.

sal
 
Picked up a Native 5 today with G-10 and CPM S35VN. Really nice product! Nobody seems to have these available and I ran onto one in a retail store. They also have the Mantix2 which someone mentioned they can't find.

As far as pricing goes, I would have loved to have paid a lot less, but it is appears to be a great little knife. I am not too concerned about Spyderco's overall pricing relative to the competition. My first Native came from Walmart... that has been a while since they carried Spydies.
 
Last edited:
Just to make you US guys feel somewhat better, allow me show you what the retail is on a knife like the Battlestation, here in Holland:

http://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-spyderco-battlestation-c168gp.htm

€ 319,95 equals a baffling $ 422,24.

It's not just Spyderco though, can I offer anyone here a ZT0300 for just $ 481,63 ? Going once...going twice...

http://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-zero-tolerance-0300-folder-black-plain-edge.htm

Makes your US prices sound a lot better in comparison right :D
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top