Spyderco, no longer the value it once was...

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Sorry, I don't see what op is talking about for multiple reasons.

-Sal is always listening to his customers

-The offering of sprint runs in different steels. Seriously, where else on earth can you get a folder with cpm-cruwear? Please tell me!

-The fact that their "foreign knives" are built to some of the best quality available in that price range (Gayle Bradley?)

-The fact that they started the pocket clip and the spyder-hole. You can buy a mini grip with a hole and a clip, but I wouldn't call it stealing, I'd call it influencing.

-The multiple options they offer. There is something for everybody in every price range.

-And most of all, the prices I've payed have always been reflected in the value of the knife in terms of quality and materials.
 
Southard's customs start at $400 and his books are never open.

It all depends on how you look at it. Remember when BF went haywire when Nutfancy made a video about the Southard? To non knife guys and budget folks yeah it is expensive. Others appreciate what you get, a mid tech level quality knife designed by Southard which resembles his custom work. Of course, 99% of the knife market doesn't buy mid techs lol. With Spyderco, they seem to offer something for everyone though. May not all be of great value they give plenty of options and price points.
 
The Japan-made spydercos are expensive, unless you compare them to knives from other companies made in the same factories.

The others are good value, particularly if you shop around or wait until they are a little less new. The manix 2 xl for less than $100 is a steal. There are several models I never thought I would get until I found them at low prices - e.g. Lionspy for $250, Southfork for $200, Tuff for $180, back-up Perrin Bowie for $70.

I think Sal has said that they use a fixed margin for setting MRSP, and I respect them for that. They don't try to price gouge with popular models.
 
MSRP on a PM2 is $189.95 vs $130 for a Grip in S30V.

Don't shoot me, I like BM's a lot too....

I will not pay no more than $110 for a S30v satin PM2. My favorite dealers' price them there and secondary LNIB is about the same.

S30v Grip is not a standard model, easiest way to get it is through custom shop and last time I built one it was over $130. Ritter Grip is what, $136? Another comparable: S30v 940 is over $180 with MAP.
 
MSRP on a PM2 is $189.95 vs $130 for a Grip in S30V.

MSRP is moot when comparing street pricing of Spyderco vs. Benchmade. Benchmades are sold only at 15% off MSRP. Spydercos are sold at whatever profit the dealer wishes to make. Not uncommon to see Spydercos sold at 40%-50% off MSRP.

Net result is that both can be had for about the same street price!

S30V Griptilian (Ritter) with plastic handle vs. PM2 S30V G-10.
 
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Low capacity is why customs cost more, with one knife taking weeks, months, or even years to be completed. High capacity is why Victorinox blades are sold cheap, spitting out 1,000 Classics a day (I believe that is the correct number, at least from a few years ago).

Capacity is only one factor among many in what drives cost. Materials, labor, regional tax/duty, and other components influence what the eventual cost is. You can't really compare production vs. custom since made-to-stock vs. made-to-spec are completely different processes, but even if we were to try, there are far more reasons why customs are priced higher than capacity alone.

If you're talking about margin, that's one thing. But even then, there are more factors than capacity involved in demand. It's not really a good comparison because they're so different. Not all production is made equal.

Sal is always listening to his customers

The highest value of all, IMO.
 
He probably took note of how he worded it. Demeaning the clip style by saying its not a true pocket clip. Then what is it?... All this after arguing his points this entire thread that Spyderco is of lesser value than what others are saying here.

I actually dont even think he's using the term "offender" in a literal sense. Basically you can just call something pretty much worthless POS pretty much and not have someone who likes it not make a rebuttal.
Mostly this.
Quiet, what OP did in that sentence is not an opinion. Its blatantly calling the clip a cheap POS that isn't a "true" pocket clip..... Like what the hell is that supposed to mean?:confused: If it holds the knife in your pocket, it IS a pocket clip.

And in regards to your experience with the wire clip bending when caught on a door frame, IIRC pocket clips aren't meant to keep the door frame in your pocket... Just the knife :D And regardless, doesn't spyderco replace clips for little to no cost anyway? I personally believe the wire clip is an amazing innovation in the departments of weight and concealment.

I also have yet to loose one to a door frame, but I guess that's because I carry my knives the right way:p Either IWB or in my back pocket;)

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I was just calling out the OP for phrasing his statement in a way that was, quite frankly, completely moronic........:D
I think it's time to let this one drop
 
Mostly this.
Quiet, what OP did in that sentence is not an opinion. Its blatantly calling the clip a cheap POS that isn't a "true" pocket clip..... Like what the hell is that supposed to mean?:confused: If it holds the knife in your pocket, it IS a pocket clip.

And in regards to your experience with the wire clip bending when caught on a door frame, IIRC pocket clips aren't meant to keep the door frame in your pocket... Just the knife :D And regardless, doesn't spyderco replace clips for little to no cost anyway? I personally believe the wire clip is an amazing innovation in the departments of weight and concealment.

I also have yet to loose one to a door frame, but I guess that's because I carry my knives the right way:p Either IWB or in my back pocket;)

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I was just calling out the OP for phrasing his statement in a way that was, quite frankly, completely moronic........:D
I think it's time to let this one drop
Please read my post # 94.
 
Mostly this.
Quiet, what OP did in that sentence is not an opinion. Its blatantly calling the clip a cheap POS that isn't a "true" pocket clip..... Like what the hell is that supposed to mean?:confused: If it holds the knife in your pocket, it IS a pocket clip.

And in regards to your experience with the wire clip bending when caught on a door frame, IIRC pocket clips aren't meant to keep the door frame in your pocket... Just the knife :D And regardless, doesn't spyderco replace clips for little to no cost anyway? I personally believe the wire clip is an amazing innovation in the departments of weight and concealment.

I also have yet to loose one to a door frame, but I guess that's because I carry my knives the right way:p Either IWB or in my back pocket;)

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I was just calling out the OP for phrasing his statement in a way that was, quite frankly, completely moronic........:D
I think it's time to let this one drop

LOL ok, man. Sure thing. :rolleyes:

I wish I'd have known I was carrying my knives the "wrong way" all these years. LOL

It's good that you can carry IWB, I wish I could. But I can't, my gun's in the way, you see. As for my back pocket, that's where the wallet goes! So, I guess I'm just stuck carrying my knives the wrong way, front strong side. Ah well.
 

But marketing ≠ advertising.

Marketing drives engineering and production. Marketing delivers the product specs, engineering develops the product design, and production builds the actual product. So let's not downplay marketing as some useless expense - they drive a good portion of the operation. If it weren't for marketing, research would have no direction. And if they spent time trying to find direction, they would have no time to research.
 
Okay.

But I have not found Spyderco knives to be any more expensive than those made by Benchmade or ZT, the two companies that I consider to make knives of of the same quality as Spyderco. Usually, the selling prices for Benchmade are higher than the selling prices for Spyderco. And ZT costs even more.

You may be confusing Spyderco's expensive "Sprint Run" knives with their standard line. These are limited editions and cost considerably more than the standard line. But you also have to consider Spyderco's "value" line of knives. The Tenacious is probably Spyderco's most popular knife right now and it's available for less than $40 from many retail outlets. Where is the $40 Benchmade or ZT? While the Japanese Spydercos have increased in price due to increased costs involved with the Japanese economy, you can still buy a current classic Delica for less than $60. Again, not much offered in the Benchmade and ZT lines for $60. Furthermore, if you look closely at the Taichung Taiwan produced Spydercos you will find the quality to rival that of custom knives for the price of a higher end production model. It's hard to complain about value when you consider these facts.

Granted the PM2 prices are currently premium. That's due to supply and demand. There just ain't enough of them to satisfy the demand so retailers can tack on that premium to their selling prices. Right now Spyderco is in the midst of an expansion project at its Golden, CO, plant and that's causing delays in production in their USA-made models that is affecting supply.

I guess you can call me a Spyderco fanboy (and I am...along with Benchmade and ZT and several others) but I'm just trying to point out a few facts that might have been overlooked.

I think if you nit pick you can find flaws. My guess is you haven't handled many high end or LE knives at all. But whatever.
$40 Chinese made folder: Spyderco. ($10 to make or less)
$40 USA made knife: Kershaw.
Kershaw wins.

Paramilitary 2 (If you can find): $110~-$120.
ZT 0770: $130-$140: Way better bang for your money. CF Scales. Lighter. Smaller. Better blade geometry for EDC.
ZT Wins in my opinion.

Spyderco Southard: $240-$260 G10, titanium CTS 204P. Horrid blade geometry (4mm stock, that tapers with an aggressive hollow grind makes it a POOR performer).
ZT 0801: $198~ (can be found much cheaper): Titanium framelock, steel insert, elmax steel, flipper (way better than the Southard). Fit and finish is just as good, if not better. USA made. Cheaper
ZT wins.

Spyderco is the epitome of value in the production knife world. To say that BM is a better bang for the buck is about as far fetched as it gets. Enforcing their foolish MAP rule last year spoke volumes for the company. They want more money from us but they don't want to give us more anything (ie better QC , better steels etc.). Such a joke.

A 707 Sequel , 154CM and Axis = $140. Manix2 with S110V and BBL (plus a whole lot bigger and beefier) for $110. This is a prime example.

You would have been better off using a comparison of a grip vs this. But I guess I commend you for not taking the lowblow route.

Axis mechanism> Manix 2 caged ball lock. I'd advise doing your own hard use/abuse testing. (See my hard use video, you will see the CBL fail). I've yet to make an Axis fail, or break an omega spring (broke one but that was my fault).
Aluminum scales> Cheap Plastic scales (trust me their weak as hell compared to G10 or Aluminum).
Collaboration with a known maker vs in-house design.
Dependable warranty of Benchmade vs not so dependable Spyderco (You better hope they got parts or remember to you know actually send you the parts they promised?)

Their MAP pricing doesn't make Benchmade more money. It makes dealers more money, and helps even out competition between the little or big guy. I am not sure if you were aware but companies like BladeHQ, Knifecenter could easily sell Grips for $70 free shipping all day long. A small local knife shop cannot do this and would have to try sell benchmade at reduced profit, meaning often times they don't restock as often.
I have found myself buying more in brick and mortar since Benchmade's decision of MAP pricing.

So far the B&M stores everywhere I go have said: Kershaw, and Benchmade are their #1 sellers so it doesn't seem to have hurt sales as bad as it seems. It likely would hurt online sellers.
I have also heard a lot of complaints from dealers about Spyderco. Mostly warranty related issues where their customers are not being helped by Spyderco, might have to do with their expansion who knows.
 
To Quiet,

Haha, I'm only kidding man:p

But my theory is that you just have to switch the wallet to the opposite back pocket. Frees up the original, and at the same time, corrects the imbalance in your body from having your thick wallet on the same side for so many years:D Well at least until you create a new imbalance in the opposite direction......hmmmmmm. I guess that's when you go back the original wallet config. and start the IWB thing.

But that's just me;)
 
i own many of spydercos finest models, knives like the police 3, chinook 3, massad ayoob, civilian, military, szabo, yozimbo , gayle bradley, manix xl etc.... all new from dealers, and i dont believe i ever paid over $150 for any of them.
 
I think if you nit pick you can find flaws. My guess is you haven't handled many high end or LE knives at all. But whatever.
$40 Chinese made folder: Spyderco. ($10 to make or less)
$40 USA made knife: Kershaw.
Kershaw wins.

Paramilitary 2 (If you can find): $110~-$120.
ZT 0770: $130-$140: Way better bang for your money. CF Scales. Lighter. Smaller. Better blade geometry for EDC.
ZT Wins in my opinion.

Spyderco Southard: $240-$260 G10, titanium CTS 204P. Horrid blade geometry (4mm stock, that tapers with an aggressive hollow grind makes it a POOR performer).
ZT 0801: $198~ (can be found much cheaper): Titanium framelock, steel insert, elmax steel, flipper (way better than the Southard). Fit and finish is just as good, if not better. USA made. Cheaper
ZT Wins
This is what I've been saying. It's in my opinion that with Kershaw / ZT you get more bang for less buck than with Spyderco. I still love my Spydercos though. I'm a fan for sure. (As long as it's a FRN though) lol.
 
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$40 Chinese made folder: Spyderco. ($10 to make or less)
$40 USA made knife: Kershaw.
Kershaw wins.

But then you spend $15 more and get a Delica/Endura, which blows anything Kershaw offers in that price range out of the water.

Paramilitary 2 (If you can find): $110~-$120.
ZT 0770: $130-$140: Way better bang for your money. CF Scales. Lighter. Smaller. Better blade geometry for EDC.
ZT Wins in my opinion.

The Para 2 has the better lock, and IMO a much better blade for EDC.

Spyderco Southard: $240-$260 G10, titanium CTS 204P. Horrid blade geometry (4mm stock, that tapers with an aggressive hollow grind makes it a POOR performer).
ZT 0801: $198~ (can be found much cheaper): Titanium framelock, steel insert, elmax steel, flipper (way better than the Southard). Fit and finish is just as good, if not better. USA made. Cheaper
ZT wins.

204P is a much better steel than Elmax, and G10 scales offer grip. Regardless, the "USA made" argument is tricky, because how much truly goes into a "USA made" product? Many cars are "USA made" yet have the majority of their parts made elsewhere. Not only that, but in this case, the money eventually makes it back into the country because Spyderco is a USA company.

Additionally, the Taiwan made Spydercos consistently have near perfect F&F, so I wouldn't say that being made in the USA is an advantage.

Axis mechanism> Manix 2 caged ball lock. I'd advise doing your own hard use/abuse testing. (See my hard use video, you will see the CBL fail). I've yet to make an Axis fail, or break an omega spring (broke one but that was my fault).

Omega springs breaking are Axis lock failures... That's the most integral part of the lock.

Collaboration with a known maker vs in-house design.

...

Dependable warranty of Benchmade vs not so dependable Spyderco (You better hope they got parts or remember to you know actually send you the parts they promised?)

I've dealt with both, half a dozen times each. I've had much better results from Spyderco.

Their MAP pricing doesn't make Benchmade more money. It makes dealers more money, and helps even out competition between the little or big guy.

Then why are those dealers constantly offering "discounts"? After all, their end goal is to make more money.

Honestly, this is all personal experience and preference. If you like Benchmade designs better, that's great. I can't argue your personal experience and preference. But as far as mine go - alleged poor warranty included - Spyderco wins by a large margin.
 
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It's good that you can carry IWB, I wish I could. But I can't, my gun's in the way, you see. As for my back pocket, that's where the wallet goes! So, I guess I'm just stuck carrying my knives the wrong way, front strong side. Ah well.

I'm off topic here but phew man! You must have a epic EDC load. Yesterday in a thread you said that you carry bigger flippers (safe to assume theres Ti involved so I imagine a size range there), then you said that you carry an SAK also, and now you just said you EDC a handgun IWB..... Not to mention keys, wallet, phone, etc etc. Wow. Impressive.

I insist on EDCing a Glock 19 size pistol (XDm Compact another example) and I can barely stand one knife after I include watch, buncha keys, money clip, and phone. To me, this is where lightweight knives shine. The Endura, LWT Manix, and BM 940 are prime examples of what works for me. Especially in my area where it is 90 degrees for 3/4 of the year and all I can wear are shorts and a shirt.

We are very different indeed.

There are times for IWB knives and again, another time that LWTs shine. When running chores in sweatpants or outside in basketball shorts, I can't carry those tanks.
 
Spyderco has been making expensive knives for knife junkies for a long time. Most of the new models this year are exactly that. But that has nothing to do with the fact that their production knives at every price point are a great buy.

The real competition I see is on the low end. Spyderco has a limited and somewhat unimaginative product line from their Chinese factory. CRKT and Boker are both cranking out interesting collaborations for not much more than a Tenacious.
 
MSRP is moot when comparing street pricing of Spyderco vs. Benchmade. Benchmades are sold only at 15% off MSRP. Spydercos are sold at whatever profit the dealer wishes to make. Not uncommon to see Spydercos sold at 40% off MSRP.

Net result is that both can be had for about the same street price!

S30V Griptilian (Ritter) with plastic handle vs. PM2 S30V G-10.

I can pull plenty of comparisons such as $170 for M4/m390 Benchmade Contego with custom level blue/blk scalloped G10 vs $170-$200+ of endless tiny VG10 Spyderco models that are coming in from Japan with all sort of fit and finish problems (I returned 4 VG10 spydies to amazon recently due to how bad they are, uneven grind, gritty action, even had a stainless police with the lock bar that didn't fit flush to the handle and gouge my hand).

We can pull knife to knife comparisons all day long, but the button line is Spyderco used to cost a fraction of a BM with better steel but that is no longer the case and many BM knives with MAP pricing is a better deal than many Spydercos on offer these days.
 
To a certain extent I agree about the Seki Spyderco's not being as good as a value as the other lines they have. Knife prices in general have gotten a bit crazy and in a way they make customs look like better values. But in my opinion Spyderco's are a much better value than Benchmade's.

Just the fact that right now you can get a Gayle Bradley folder for $140.00 shipped says a lot.
 
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