Spyderco Southard Flipper

elbowroom said:
And by the way what is a "founder's motto?" Many companies employ "mission statements"....bla bla bla. It's all BS. All these companies want is to maximize their bottom line by increasing profit...that's it. So if it means using low grade material and capitalizing off the name "titanium" they will certainly engage in that. Soon enough these products will trickle down to the cheapest manufacturing facilities available.
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State your source for the lower grade titanium. Otherwise all you're saying is "bla bla bla."
 
Morrow said:
Just a quick cautionary comment. This thread is in the General forum and not Whine & Cheese so craft your posts accordingly.
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Ooops, was that one for me!?
(since it followed my post).

I dont think so (that it was for me) - certainly didnt mean to cause any offense!
 
elbowroom said:
No troll here. Just expressing opinion on the outrageous price tag. You know there are many many different grades of titanium; the lower grade & less expensive being used here. As long as companies' call it "titanium" they feel it gives them license to gouge consumers.
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USA materials assembled in Taiwan as far as I know.
Dude... look at the blades that have come to us from the Taichung, Taiwan factory-- they have been freaking awesome.
I just don't know how anybody could not see this by now if they've been around knives for any amount of time.

And that dark stonewashed titanium RIL scale is probably the one I find most aesthetically pleasing of any of my few titanium scaled blades...
 
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Hmmmm. We seem to have lost elbowroom. Perhaps he was a troll after all . . . :(
 
I feel like this topic has already been beaten to death :p The general consensus seems to be that with the Southard Flipper, you're paying for the quality and the fit and finish. I think mkjellgren summed this up really in another thread comparing the Southard to a ZT 560/561:

mkjellgren said:
The issue is that the fit amd finish is not the same. I own both knives, and both are nice knives, but the southard is nicer. Sal of spyderco has said in the past that if he wanted to make knives that matched chris reeve's tolerances they would cost as much as chris reeve's knives, well, this one does match (or nearly) those tolerances, and because its produced in taiwan it costs $240, not $400. Again, some of you act as though expensive things cant be produced overseas. Its becoming painfully obvious that the majority of the haters are either die hard patriots who are all bent out of shape by a foreign produced knife getting so much praise, or are simply people who have not yet handled the knife. I have yet to hear a single person who has owned the knife say "yeah...it just wasnt worth it...". Get one in your hands and you'll see what the fuss is about. This $240 taiwanese knife isnt just in par with a $240 american knife, its on par with (and better than some) a $400 american knife. If youre going to break down cost so simply as you claim to have done with the zt, how do you explain the $400+ cost of a plain stonewashed lego strider, which arguably has worse fit and finish.
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I agree with everything mkjellgren says. IMO, the fit amd finish on the Southard is very close to that of a Sebenza. The flipping action on the Southard is smoother than any other flipper I've ever owned or handled, including some $300+ US made knives. The lockup on the Southard is very nearly as good as a Sebenza, and better than ANY $300+ US made knife I've ever owned or handled.

Is the Southard perfect? No. I have several issues with it, and it's not my favorite knife. But I think it's worth the $260 I paid for it.

Does fit & finish really matter? Again, I think this topic has been beaten to death. In the short term, or on a knife that you're going to absolutely beat on, F&F might not matter as much. But if you plan on carrying and using a knife for years and years and years, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that good F&F. tight tolerences, and high precision translates into something that will last a long time and keep performing.

On a somewhat related note, I would suggest that watching the Chris Reeve shop tour videos that Blade HQ put together. Chris Reeve himself talks a bit about this (I wish he talked more, I could watch him talk for hours).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QiEnhA3n0A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj6p8p6vfZQ
 
Obviously, whether or not you like the Southard, there's no question that the knife certianly creates a strong emotional response! I've not seen anyone seriously question the quality of the Southard. What i'm hearing from several folks is that its overpriced for the type & quality that it represents. The fact is that Spyderco does an EXCELLENT job of optimizing their margins on their products. One example is the "sprint runs" of the Para 2 with different color G-10. There is no mfg or material cost difference for the color g-10, but Spyderco has optimized their margins on the market desires. That's the American way, and I applaud them for that. Mfg the Southard in Taiwain is a smart decision for Spyderco, and the quality is obviously great, but realistically, Spyderco has a higher margin on this blade than ZT does on similar US produced blades. Nothing wrong with that, its just business. Not sure i understand the fervent defense of the pricing stradegy, but fans will be fans!
 
Nafunu said:
I feel like this topic has already been beaten to death :p
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Not really. The point here has nothing to do with the Southard. It has to do with the principle that you shouldn't make statements of fact if you can't back them up. Otherwise, you MAY be a troll.

'Nuff said.
 
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- You have to keep in mind that Spyderco probably pays a pretty nice chunk of $ to Brad Southard since it is a collaboration.

- If you have held the knife, you'll know you're getting a lot of knife for the money.

- People need to stop confusing Taiwan with China.

- If you want the knife but think it's too expensive, too bad so sad. I'd love to have a Ferrari, but you don't see me whining about how outlandishly expensive they are when it's just a "car" with 4 wheels and a steering wheel.
 
michaelsmith said:
Obviously, whether or not you like the Southard, there's no question that the knife certianly creates a strong emotional response! I've not seen anyone seriously question the quality of the Southard. What i'm hearing from several folks is that its overpriced for the type & quality that it represents. The fact is that Spyderco does an EXCELLENT job of optimizing their margins on their products. One example is the "sprint runs" of the Para 2 with different color G-10. There is no mfg or material cost difference for the color g-10, but Spyderco has optimized their margins on the market desires. That's the American way, and I applaud them for that. Mfg the Southard in Taiwain is a smart decision for Spyderco, and the quality is obviously great, but realistically, Spyderco has a higher margin on this blade than ZT does on similar US produced blades. Nothing wrong with that, its just business. Not sure i understand the fervent defense of the pricing stradegy, but fans will be fans!
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The mentioned PM2 sprint runs are not just G10 scale color variants.
Look at the steel.
 
elbowroom said:
There are approximately 38 different grades of titanium. If you want to be naive, that is certainly your prerogative.
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I'm not the one making statements and then failing to back them up. Put up or shut up.
 
The Logical One said:
- You have to keep in mind that Spyderco probably pays a pretty nice chunk of $ to Brad Southard since it is a collaboration.

- If you have held the knife, you'll know you're getting a lot of knife for the money.

- People need to stop confusing Taiwan with China.

- If you want the knife but think it's too expensive, too bad so sad. I'd love to have a Ferrari, but you don't see me whining about how outlandishly expensive they are when it's just a "car" with 4 wheels and a steering wheel.
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And that right there would be a pretty darn logical summation :D
Good points.
 
Sal should be along shortly to confirm it is in fact 6AL-4V Titanium.
 
Nafunu said:
I feel like this topic has already been beaten to death :p The general consensus seems to be that with the Southard Flipper, you're paying for the quality and the fit and finish. I think mkjellgren summed this up really in another thread comparing the Southard to a ZT 560/561:




I agree with everything mkjellgren says. IMO, the fit amd finish on the Southard is very close to that of a Sebenza. The flipping action on the Southard is smoother than any other flipper I've ever owned or handled, including some $300+ US made knives. The lockup on the Southard is very nearly as good as a Sebenza, and better than ANY $300+ US made knife I've ever owned or handled.

Is the Southard perfect? No. I have several issues with it, and it's not my favorite knife. But I think it's worth the $260 I paid for it.

Does fit & finish really matter? Again, I think this topic has been beaten to death. In the short term, or on a knife that you're going to absolutely beat on, F&F might not matter as much. But if you plan on carrying and using a knife for years and years and years, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that good F&F. tight tolerences, and high precision translates into something that will last a long time and keep performing.

On a somewhat related note, I would suggest that watching the Chris Reeve shop tour videos that Blade HQ put together. Chris Reeve himself talks a bit about this (I wish he talked more, I could watch him talk for hours).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QiEnhA3n0A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj6p8p6vfZQ
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I've handled a few knives that matched the Sebenza's finish quite easily, it isn't difficult to stone wash, or sand/or beadblast. The real points of interest are the manufacturing, and the tight quality control which also results in spectacular fitting of the blade, framelock surface contact, action, design and cosmetics.

The reason I still stand by fit and finish being better on the ZT561 has to do with the fact the knife came cosmetically and mechanically flawless out of the box.

The Southard has small flaws. lockbar cut outs on mine aren't perfect, and show some micro nicks from possible rounding edge with sandblasting instead of being polished up.
The corner of the chamfered edge on the finger choil on the framelock side looks uneven.
Pocket clip doesn't precisely follow curvature of the handle (Not sure if it's supposed to or not, I am guessing they were aiming for that.
Pocket clip was also incredibly pointy, not resolved after a little bit of filing off.
Tiny scratch on the blade edge.
Fit of some components is quite frankly strange while in others it's nice and tight. For example: Bushing pivot/screws has some play in it, as it will NOT lock up perfectly the blade it self is perfectly solid side to side or up and down. The pivot screw always loosens very easily, much much more easily than any other knife I've had. By the end of the day the screw was pretty much being held by a tiny amount of pressure. I have loctited the screw and all is better now but still you don't need loctite on a sebenza due to the quality screws/females.


Personally I think the Southard is better compared to a Sebenza not so much a ZT561.
I prefer the Southard over my large sebbie. Due to the vastly superior steel, and more importantly: way better ergonomics.
 
JTR357 said:
Sal should be along shortly to confirm it is in fact 6AL-4V Titanium.
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Thanks. I'm not sure that will fix the problem, however. Biases don't readily give way to facts. Take away the Titanium issue and they'll be something else to pick on, I'm sure. Maybe the G10 is too grippy or the non-lock side of the handle is thicker than the lock-side or the bottom of the clip is too sharp or the spine is too wavy. And why do we need a hole in the blade anyway? There's just SO MUCH wrong with the Southard, don't you know? ;)

Meanwhile, I absolutely LOVE my Southard. And nothing anyone suggests without PROOF is likely to make me change my mind. Unlike the OP, the benefit of the doubt in my mind goes to Sal. Why? Because he's earned it.
 
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Luis G,

My ZT 0560 came spot on out of the box as well :)

However, not one thing you noted about your Southard, aside from the pocket clip being pointy, matches the one I received.
Guess I just got lucky...
 
Luis G. said:
I prefer the Southard over my large sebbie. Due to the vastly superior steel, and more importantly: way better ergonomics.
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+1. In fact, I'm fresh out of Sebenzas at the moment and I may not buy another one. That's how much better I like the Southard.
 
elbowroom said:
There are approximately 38 different grades of titanium. If you want to be naive, that is certainly your prerogative.
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It behooves you to do some research before making statements like "so-and-so is lying about the materials they use they're trying to scam you". Two pages later, you still haven't presented any proof whatsoever to back up your accusations.

Weak trolling, I give it a 0/10.

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