Stainless...what's the deal?

[1066vik]

While I'm at it I don't see what a company explaining away overheads, equipment and so on has to do with it either. Companies have those problems not just the one I had in mind when I was speaking of the markup of 1095.

I wasn't trying to defend one company or another, just trying to make the point that raw materials are the least of the expense in an item like this. One steel costing 8 times as much as another does not equate to one knife costing 8 times more, because there are too many other variables in between.

 

[greater]

My point is not that carbon steel knives are too expensive but rather that manufacturing stainless steel knives that are equal in quality to their carbon steel counterparts is more often than not cost and labor prohibitive in the eyes of most people both buyers and makers.

 

[ifihadaboat]

"No wonder they can offer a no quibble money back guarantee. They can bloody well afford to, there's enough of a mark up on all those they sell."

Free market - end of story. It's obviously worth the price to many people and the two guys you are so tactfully not naming have made a good living at it. It's not fair to criticize knife makers for trying to make a buck on their product. When people decide that the knives aren't worth it, they'll quite buying - then prices drop. That's the whole point of the free market. Is the market price artificially inflated, as you seem to be suggesting? Maybe, but most of the posts here pertaining to the superiority of one steel or another are from consumers, so if it is artificially inflated, it's not the makers' fault.

Carbon vs. stainless? - anybody have much luck with a piece of flint and a stainless knife?

 

[baldtaco-II]

“Baldtaco-II I think you are over rating the capabilities of manufacturers to mass produce quality stainless blades that are on par with cheaper carbon counterparts in terms of toughness and edge retention at an affordable price to consumers”

I'm not convinced of that at all. I think one could easily put an even often maligned Tiawanese offering such as a Spyderco or a good Japanese knife like a Fallkniven head to head with pretty much every simple carbon steel blade I've seen on WSS this year and the pile they would lose to would be very small indeed. Those they did would be the exceptions that support the rule. Hard to test unless we had identical knives each with an optimum heat treat, but look for clues. Seen how happy Scott Gossman was / is with his new stainless box cutter? The point is, stainless is very definitely not on the back foot and the bad mouthing of it usually has nothing at all to do with performance in the real world.

 

[baldtaco-II]

I wasn't trying to defend one company or another, just trying to make the point that raw materials are the least of the expense in an item like this. One steel costing 8 times as much as another does not equate to one knife costing 8 times more, because there are too many other variables in between.

Thanks for clarifying

I hear ya, but then that indicates something is going wrong in the manufacturing process that is being passed on to consumers. If one group is using more expensive materials that are harder to work and by the time they get to market the cheaper easier to work material gets to be more expensive someone is losing something, not least the customer. I can't see how that's any different to other items one might buy.

 

[baldtaco-II]

"No wonder they can offer a no quibble money back guarantee. They can bloody well afford to, there's enough of a mark up on all those they sell."

Free market - end of story. It's obviously worth the price to many people and the two guys you are so tactfully not naming have made a good living at it. It's not fair to criticize knife makers for trying to make a buck on their product. When people decide that the knives aren't worth it, they'll quite buying - then prices drop. That's the whole point of the free market. Is the market price artificially inflated, as you seem to be suggesting? Maybe, but most of the posts here pertaining to the superiority of one steel or another are from consumers, so if it is artificially inflated, it's not the makers' fault.

Carbon vs. stainless? - anybody have much luck with a piece of flint and a stainless knife?

No qualms with that at all. My opinion is go for it if you can get away with it. But as much as I support the seller at their end of the game I also support the poor sod at the other end of the game. Fault doesn't really factor in to it. EG. However it got to be that way the facts is that today a plain old F1 would cost me £96.95. A similarly sized offering from a big name company I shall not name in a cheap steel used to make cheap knives way back into the last century would cost me £121.95. True the handles are different but both use very cheap routes to putting their handles on so I'm more concerned with the business end. Now, as much as I believe the seller should be able to sell for whatever it wants there must be some feature about the one that is using the much cheaper material yet selling it for more money that would make the consumer buy it. And I don't believe much of that discrepancy inheres in the design. I'm confident that links to some of the motivations I mentioned in my opening post.

EDIT

I'll think it is time for me to close here but before I do I want to loop back round to the OPs question -

"A lot of people don't like stainless for a woods knife but I'm not really sure why. If a stainless steel is done right, is it really inferior to a non-stainless? How so?"

To which my final answer is - some people prefer carbons to stainless for various reasons, and just occasionally there is justification for that on the basis of performance. But when you are considering what is the bulk of them here, little simple carbons hardened up to less than 60, to my mind the motives have nothing to do with performance at all. Good stainless works hard.

Out now.

 

[fujita yuji]

I don't think straight carbon steel knives are expensive.
That material needs **LOTS** more care and skill in heat treatment process compared to
stainless and most of the tool steels.

 

[ifihadaboat]

Taco -
You make very good points, and I probably own more stainless than carbon knives (when you count the many folders that I never carry). However, since this is the W&SS forum, and the OP asked about advantages/disadvantages, I'll pose my question again (since it probably got overlooked after my rant ).

Anybody have much luck striking a piece of flint with a stainless blade?

 

[m. wohlwend]

Yeah, we are WAY out to sea and far away from what the OP originally asked. It's turned into more of an anti- knifer maker rant.

 

[ifihadaboat]

Yeah, we are WAY out to sea and far away from what the OP originally asked. It's turned into more of an anti- knifer maker rant.

Who doesn't love a little stainless vs. carbon thread, eh? I'm sure most of the regular posters are watcing this laughing like fools.

 

[m. wohlwend]

Most of the regulars are staying far away !!! LOL

 

[Md 25v]

Anybody have much luck striking a piece of flint with a stainless blade?[/QUOTE]

Yes, ZDP-189, and VG-10, both throw acceptable sparks with my Dacite and Ft. Payne flakes. They will light char cloth as well as chaga.

I have a folding Endura in each of the steels and the trick is to have a freshly chipped edge on the flake and strike faster but with less pressure than a normal carbon striker. Leave the folding knives closed and they work really well as strikers.

These are the knives I use

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=SP10PGRE

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=SP10GPFG

 

[koyote]

1: what happens if the power goes out on your light saber?

This is WSS, we all know that in a pinch, a lot of work can be done with a freaking rock.

2: I'm an animist. I do, quite seriously, believe the thoughts have energy and mass, as as been proven time and time again. things get imparted into handmade objects. Don't believe me? fine. I won't argue it. What that has to do with a custom knife being stainless or carbon or in between is beyond me!

3: As steel technology develops, it develops in both stainless and carbon steels. Which is actually a misnomer anyway, as you have various radically different types of steel in both layman categories. 1075 and 1095 do not work or heat treat the same, 5160 is a completely different animal, no one knows where to place D2, and CPM154, 440A, and 440B are all worlds apart.

That being said- in general for a given performance, a differentially heat treated 'carbon' blade of a given hardness is going to suffer less from temperature extremes and be more durable for a given ease of edge maintenance.


Ask yourself why so much tooling is made out of expensive 'carbon' steels.

Now, all this ranting aside, I happen to love 440C when properly heat treated AND with the right geometry. I think it's one of the all time great steels.

There is a factor in learning, art, and making knives out of objects, where non-stainless steels are cheaper to come by as scrap- less intimidating to experiment on when the exact type is not known- much, much, much easier to forge (talk about an outdated thing! A forge! should all be done with nanobots!!!!!!)

CPM154 is a funny one, I hear a lot of stainless purists who don't like it, and a lot of 'carbon' purists who don't like it. for exactly opposite reasons!

edit- there's a lot of humor in this, for all that I'm serious. This is a 'rant' as an art form. I'm not attacking anyone, except insofar as disallowing someone's observable belief system might be a bit much.

 

[m. wohlwend]

More data from Crucible
S3V - 70 ft lbs breaking torque, wear resistance at 7 when austenitized at 1950 and tempered to 60 RC
A2 - 40 ft lbs and 2-3 on the Crossed cylinder adhesive wear test
D2 -21 ft lbs on the Charpy and 3-4 on the wear
Now for the stainless!
our $26.60 a ft stainless steel S30V scores 10 ft lbs on the charpy and Crucible did not post results for the wear test only saying that when tested against 440, with 440c coming in at 100 the S30V scored 145. Oh and 440c scored 2.5 ft lbs on the Charpy.
Big difference between stainless and carbon alloyed steel in manafacture tests.

 

[fujita yuji]

Big difference between stainless and carbon alloyed steel in manafacture tests.

And differentially heat treated or laminated blade goes more.

 

[CUTS LIKE A KRIS]

Many also have exhibited a problem with micro chipping and edge chipping. I have seen blades made of several of the new super stainess steels break and shatter under use( though in extreme cold when the worst two cases occured).

The only blades that I have received from factory with micro chipping have been 2 Bark River A2 blades, and I have never chipped out a stainless blade- even at -35 celcius, and I like thin blades.

I don't think straight carbon steel knives are expensive.
That material needs **LOTS** more care and skill in heat treatment process compared to
stainless and most of the tool steels.

Actually I have to correct you- stainless steels require much more care and skill in heat treatment. People can HT O1 with a charcoal barbeque but the same cannot be said for stainless- the times and temperatures for stainless are much more precise.

I like most steels (440C has given me a bad taste even though I know it can be a good steel), and have never had a problem as long as the right knife was matched up to the job at hand.

 

[fujita yuji]

Sorry for making you misread, CUTS LIKE A KRIS.
I'm talking about straight carbon steel, which requires very high cooling rate.
Not many professional heat treatment shops provides heat treatment of
straight carbon steel because of this.

Straight carbon steel has quite perfect reversible phase transition property
that we could say it is more forgiving to failure but cannot say it is easy in my opinion.
Many alloyed steels are developed in some part to make heat treatment
easy and stable, like O1 you mentioned in your post.

 

[Gossman Knives]

Actually I have to correct you- stainless steels require much more care and skill in heat treatment. People can HT O1 with a charcoal barbeque but the same cannot be said for stainless- the times and temperatures for stainless are much more precise.

Any steel that requires a "soak time" needs to be HTed in a controlled furnace or oven. You can't HT complex steels in a forge. Temps vary inside the forge.
I have to disagree with your statement about O1. O1 requires a soak time. In order to get the most out of it, you need to HT with proper equipment.
O1 is not a beginner steel.
Scott

 

[lokiman123]

surgeons don't seem to have a problem with it. I'd say their bone saws, drill bits and scalpels are adequately sharp.
Maybe someone should convert them

lmfao

 

[SouthernCross]

G'day wildmike

...I have seen blades made of several of the new super stainess steels break and shatter under use( though in extreme cold when the worst two cases occured).

One of the regulars over on the Fallkniven forum is currently working at the South Pole where he is drilling holes for a scientific research project.

He has reported that temperatures are around -35 to -40 degrees C

He has also reported recently that he used his A1 (in laminated VG10) as an Ice pick in order to climb a steep hill to take pictures of the base without any issues.

Considering the Swedish Airforce has tested the laminated VG10 during winter in the artic circle and accepted it in the F1 as a survival knife for their pilots, it seems to me they don't have concerns with laminated VG10 being brittle at low temps.

Maybe it's just some types of stainless that becomes brittle at low temps?



Kind regards
Mick