- Joined
- Mar 8, 2008
- Messages
- 26,042
Perhaps they were shattering due to a poor grain structure that wasn't bad enough to make itself known until subjected to the cold? 
-
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Stainless...what's the deal?
- Thread starter Shotgun
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2007
- Messages
- 5,846
One thing that's important here is we aren't dealing with a "simple" stainless blade. The VG-10 edge steel is laminated with 420 stainless (which is more stainless and more resilient, but much softer, than the VG-10)
This whole discussion gets very, very complicated, very quickly.
This is the purpose of laminated cores. To bring out the best of both worlds. The excellent edge retention of a more hard brittle core sandwiched between two very tough flexible non brittle metals which have great strength but bad edge retention.
This is not a cheap way to make blades laminates are expensive.
What I don't like are some of these gimmick inner and outer layer super steel laminates. Using super cheap tough steel that does not hold an edge for the outer layers makes one very strong tough quality blade provided the inner layer is a quality hard edge retaining steel. I don't see why 100% super steel laminates are a necessary, prudent, or practical solution.
This is not a cheap way to make blades laminates are expensive.
What I don't like are some of these gimmick inner and outer layer super steel laminates. Using super cheap tough steel that does not hold an edge for the outer layers makes one very strong tough quality blade provided the inner layer is a quality hard edge retaining steel. I don't see why 100% super steel laminates are a necessary, prudent, or practical solution.
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2007
- Messages
- 5,846
Differential hardening/tempering also brings out the best in both worlds in the right kinds of steel - and is also not cheap to do in a production sense.
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2007
- Messages
- 5,846
We seem to have 3 or 4 types of knives being compared-
The "1095" production carbon steel of lower end knives, versus the
"mystery" stainless of lower end production knives.
Then there's what I'd call high end production knives, such as the
laminate carbon swedish fixed blades, the laminated stainless A1, the
classic Buck 110, the RAT 1095 (note, no quotes) knives, the old
Gerber L6 blades, etc.
The lower end handmade knifemaking- with assorted steels of both
stainless and non-stainless types.
The mid to higher end handmade knifemaker's blades- again, assorted
steels.
One thing I'd like to bring up first, is that the name 1095 is being
tossed around for a lot of production carbon blades, and it's often
not 1095. I'm not Kevin, I'm not anywhere near that well
educated, but I will reiterate that the differences even among the
'simple' 10xx steels in the non-stainless world are huge. I don't work
with 1095 much because my heat treat process isn't going to bring out
the full performance of the steel beyond what I can do with 1084.
From a production standpoint, I don't know of any production process
that can match what a really well informed, detail oriented, properly
equipped custom knifemaker can achieve with 1095.
Similar cases can be made with 5160, 52100, 1084, 15N20, L6, M2,
8670M, and so on.
So, here you have lower end production- this is, honestly, a place
where the non-stainless steels often win most. I'm going to use a
specific example set, the mini-mattock and the hori-hori. I love both
tools, and own basic, low end Japanese produced models of both in
stainless and "carbon". ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT, the carbon
steel versions behave better. period. dot. When recommending these
to people I always say the same thing "these small japanese shops can
easily nail a good heat treat appropriate to the tool in carbon steel, and
every stainless example bends and dulls too easily" - Specifics, the
serrations on my stainless hori-horis dull at a rate you can, quite
literally, feel as you are sawing through roots. The carbon doesn't. I
have put permanent 5-15 degree bends in every stainless hori-hori, and
none in any of the carbon ones. And every single mini-mattock in
stainless has has bent and dulled on me and I have yet to sharpen the
carbon one.
I won't even get into the cheap chinese mystery stainless versus cheap
(mostly european in my experience) mystery non-stainless. Except to say
that at a $5 to $20 price point in a simple folder, the carbon will
almost certainly outperform. Because simple carbons ARE easier to make
work at that level of production.
Higher end productions, you start seeing more aspects of high
performance potentials across the board in the various steels. One
factor is that more attention is being paid to the materials
themselves. Another is that heat treating processes are being done
more "properly". Here, there are still choices. The wear resistance of
D2 is hard to beat, for example. RAT's 1095 offerings are far from
poor performers. Many Scandinavian blades come into this, in many
types of steel.
Now, the customs. This thread has started in heavy on bashing the
custom knifemakers. Let's take a look:
On the lower end, you are dealing almost exclusively with stock
removal. There are lower end forged knives, but generally anyone who
sticks with forging as a process is going to ramp up their knowledge
quickly- there's a huge impetus for a forging knifemaker to get better
quickly (this may be the single most positive aspect to the existence
of the ABS).
So here, the whole question of what you can do with forging versus
stock removal is - for my purposes- moot.
Non-stainless steels are definitely the way to go to produce the
maximum performance and quality in a knife with the minimum of
equipment. It's rarely quite so simple as 'heat with a blowtorch and
dunk in oil' - and I'm starting to get a bit angry at people
suggesting that that's what the vast majority of cases are doing. The
last time I did that was knife serial number 4! Seriously. I have 2
quenching mediums in 3 different types of tanks/trays and occasionally
use brine quenching on certain steels. Normalizing and stress
relieving, interrupted quenching- salts baths (which I don't use) all
do incredible things to the performance of your steel. All that aside,
getting a quenching temperature and quenching, then doing heat
treatment processes to temper and variate the hardness in different
blade sections is far easier on a beginner, or 'low end production
handmaker' than trying to tweak any type of stainless- and avoid the
costs of going for a production offsite hat treat.
Does this mean stainless is better? no. Does this mean non-stainless
is better? no.
High end- you get into some stuff here where the arguments go both
ways and steel types blur. I seriously doubt anyone is going to be
able to bring up a stainless sword that will outperform one of the L6
blades made by the masters. Very seriously. But, L6 is a high tech
'carbon' steel. At this level you have stainless and non stainless
blades being put out that can do amazing things, and be very
reliable. Here is where you have to trust the knowledge of the
knifemaker to some extent- because geometry and purpose matter
as much in steel selection as 'stainability'. There are stainless steels that
use a heat treatment eerily similar to a 1095. There are steels like
L6, 5160, 52100 that aren't stainless and don't heat treat well with a
basic 1084 type heat treatment. There are 'non stainless' steels that
are fairly corrosion resistant, and stainless steels that rust more
readily than some of what I've made!
The "1095" production carbon steel of lower end knives, versus the
"mystery" stainless of lower end production knives.
Then there's what I'd call high end production knives, such as the
laminate carbon swedish fixed blades, the laminated stainless A1, the
classic Buck 110, the RAT 1095 (note, no quotes) knives, the old
Gerber L6 blades, etc.
The lower end handmade knifemaking- with assorted steels of both
stainless and non-stainless types.
The mid to higher end handmade knifemaker's blades- again, assorted
steels.
One thing I'd like to bring up first, is that the name 1095 is being
tossed around for a lot of production carbon blades, and it's often
not 1095. I'm not Kevin, I'm not anywhere near that well
educated, but I will reiterate that the differences even among the
'simple' 10xx steels in the non-stainless world are huge. I don't work
with 1095 much because my heat treat process isn't going to bring out
the full performance of the steel beyond what I can do with 1084.
From a production standpoint, I don't know of any production process
that can match what a really well informed, detail oriented, properly
equipped custom knifemaker can achieve with 1095.
Similar cases can be made with 5160, 52100, 1084, 15N20, L6, M2,
8670M, and so on.
So, here you have lower end production- this is, honestly, a place
where the non-stainless steels often win most. I'm going to use a
specific example set, the mini-mattock and the hori-hori. I love both
tools, and own basic, low end Japanese produced models of both in
stainless and "carbon". ABSOLUTELY, WITHOUT A DOUBT, the carbon
steel versions behave better. period. dot. When recommending these
to people I always say the same thing "these small japanese shops can
easily nail a good heat treat appropriate to the tool in carbon steel, and
every stainless example bends and dulls too easily" - Specifics, the
serrations on my stainless hori-horis dull at a rate you can, quite
literally, feel as you are sawing through roots. The carbon doesn't. I
have put permanent 5-15 degree bends in every stainless hori-hori, and
none in any of the carbon ones. And every single mini-mattock in
stainless has has bent and dulled on me and I have yet to sharpen the
carbon one.
I won't even get into the cheap chinese mystery stainless versus cheap
(mostly european in my experience) mystery non-stainless. Except to say
that at a $5 to $20 price point in a simple folder, the carbon will
almost certainly outperform. Because simple carbons ARE easier to make
work at that level of production.
Higher end productions, you start seeing more aspects of high
performance potentials across the board in the various steels. One
factor is that more attention is being paid to the materials
themselves. Another is that heat treating processes are being done
more "properly". Here, there are still choices. The wear resistance of
D2 is hard to beat, for example. RAT's 1095 offerings are far from
poor performers. Many Scandinavian blades come into this, in many
types of steel.
Now, the customs. This thread has started in heavy on bashing the
custom knifemakers. Let's take a look:
On the lower end, you are dealing almost exclusively with stock
removal. There are lower end forged knives, but generally anyone who
sticks with forging as a process is going to ramp up their knowledge
quickly- there's a huge impetus for a forging knifemaker to get better
quickly (this may be the single most positive aspect to the existence
of the ABS).
So here, the whole question of what you can do with forging versus
stock removal is - for my purposes- moot.
Non-stainless steels are definitely the way to go to produce the
maximum performance and quality in a knife with the minimum of
equipment. It's rarely quite so simple as 'heat with a blowtorch and
dunk in oil' - and I'm starting to get a bit angry at people
suggesting that that's what the vast majority of cases are doing. The
last time I did that was knife serial number 4! Seriously. I have 2
quenching mediums in 3 different types of tanks/trays and occasionally
use brine quenching on certain steels. Normalizing and stress
relieving, interrupted quenching- salts baths (which I don't use) all
do incredible things to the performance of your steel. All that aside,
getting a quenching temperature and quenching, then doing heat
treatment processes to temper and variate the hardness in different
blade sections is far easier on a beginner, or 'low end production
handmaker' than trying to tweak any type of stainless- and avoid the
costs of going for a production offsite hat treat.
Does this mean stainless is better? no. Does this mean non-stainless
is better? no.
High end- you get into some stuff here where the arguments go both
ways and steel types blur. I seriously doubt anyone is going to be
able to bring up a stainless sword that will outperform one of the L6
blades made by the masters. Very seriously. But, L6 is a high tech
'carbon' steel. At this level you have stainless and non stainless
blades being put out that can do amazing things, and be very
reliable. Here is where you have to trust the knowledge of the
knifemaker to some extent- because geometry and purpose matter
as much in steel selection as 'stainability'. There are stainless steels that
use a heat treatment eerily similar to a 1095. There are steels like
L6, 5160, 52100 that aren't stainless and don't heat treat well with a
basic 1084 type heat treatment. There are 'non stainless' steels that
are fairly corrosion resistant, and stainless steels that rust more
readily than some of what I've made!
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2007
- Messages
- 5,846
part two
So, why isn't stainless more often seen in WSS wilderness discussions?
I *AM* going to speak as a knifemaker here, which means I'm probably
going to cross some lines regarding the appearance of self
promotion. I have no intention of doing so, and in some respects I'm
hoping to speak with the 'voice' of other makers.
1: customization. I often feel like when I put a knife up for sale,
I'm never going to sell it, because everyone who likes it wants it
just a little bit different. different handle, slight change to the
belly, different length. Given that I do make almost all non stainless
blades at this time, that means carbon is going to 'win' due to the
ease of obtaining a custom tool at a resonable price.
Does this matter? One poster up above gave me the impression that a
tool is a tool and it doesn't. But it does- it's the right tool with
the right feel. I'm goign to give a personal example- Koyote Girl has
a ...lump of some sort on her right middle finger, just below the
second joint on the inside. It's been there all her life and it's too
close to the knuckle for doctors to want to remove it. For her, a
custom knife with a slight indentation to the handle in the right spot
is the difference between hum-ho and bliss.
Tools interact. The grind, belly angles, carry style, handle length,
all this works with you other tools, so being able to choose a grind,
profile, weight that matches your sharpening tools and usage
matters. Since most of the offerings in a reasonable price range that
offer this customization are in non-stainless, non-stainless tends to
be much more prevalent.
2: 'personality'- This is highly related to the customization. Here in
WSS we are often aware of the psychology of survival. This is also the
psychology of performance- personal performance. Here, the difference
in a production SOG fixed blade and a custom 'carbon' fixed blade
maybe be 2 or 5% in strict laboratory terms, but the psychological
difference can and (I would argue) DOES matter to a greater extent. I
have been out camping with scouts and watched parents with crappy or
high quality production knives have similar issues with performance
because they aren't tuned to their tools and don't operate with a high
level of awareness. I have watched people who have a true companion
knife- be that a buck 110 or a small custom EDC, perform at a much
higher level. Since the custom or handmade knife has a bonus fromt he
starting gate in this area, you will often see it more often valued,
photographed, reviewed, referenced- and again, that's going to more
often be 'carbon' steel.
3: performance. Simply put, with a few exceptions that the MARKET
doesn't care for (like 440C) there are many more non-stainless steels
that a typical (ha. what a word) one man shop can produce that you can
rely on for real use. Period. Dot.
Now-
I don't know who this refers to, but I have had similar conversations
a few times in chat. I want to address this, because it actually
sounds very much like a misinterpretation of something I may have
said. If it's not, there's no specific attack on anyone intended. If
it is, there's no specific attack on anyone intended.
I charge, honestly, too little for many of my knives. In terms of
hours and attention to detail. (This is where I'm crossing boundaries,
but they've already been crossed by others). And that is because I
have a hard time demonstrating the art that goes into them to many
people. Yes, art. I pay a lot of attention to my fit and finish, to my
lines, and to my overall aesthetics. Art.
I refuse to cultivate some 'breakout' newfangled and unnecessary thing
like a new filework pattern or multiple odd shaped fullers or
whatever. That's not my art. I make a knife completely, totally, by
hand- no jigs, no patterns, no precuts. The closest I come is
reference to a photo or example of a knife - in another room- then go
out and make at most 3 sharpie marks on a piece of steel (handle
length and ricasso settings, tip position) and start going at
it. Sometimes I have a preform I've forged out to get a specific
shape or thin the steel out some, sometimes I don't. The grinding is
where the 'magic' happens here.
Is this art? yeah. Do I ever get frustrated that artists I socialize
with and random other people don't perceive the art? oh, hell yeah.
Is this pixie dust? No. I'm not taking a coloring book page and
gluing glitter on and trying to charge an extra $50 for it. I'm talking about
spending the extra hour holding a blade and feeling for the handle shape.
I'm talking about taking the extra 30 minutes to make sure my scales are
going to meet up right. I'm talking about adding bluing to the tang of a
knife so the overall finish matches. Details, aesthetics, art. If all you can see
is pixie dust, then... pass on, it's a free market.
This does, definitely, affect pricing. If people think you've just
made another Mora, you can only get so much out of your time (I do not
make $15 an hour after shop costs!)- but if you can, somehow, get
people to see the art, or maybe craftsmanship- in your work, you can
give yourself a halfway decent paycheck.
Bash away, I put a lot into these things, k?
(oh, and the flame marking. I'm one of VERY few makers I know who
occasionally does this. I only do it on osage orange, mostly on request,
and have never done it to hide a defect. I like the way it contrasts
with bright new osage, and the way it fades into the overall handle tone
as the osage ages. it's just friggin cool.)
And the price gouging. Ye gods! Go find me a decent custom maker who
is doing stainless and charging twice as much as he does for
non-stainless!
1095 is cheap, so is 1084! so....the material cost for a 1084 blade is
$2 and the material cost for a higher end stainless is $6. (and 52100,
probably $9. so much for cheap 'carbon!). So? If it's a $175 knife,
it's really not that big a deal. Want to request a $4 discount because
I didn't use VG-10? fine, I'll probably laugh and do it.
I am - have been- in the process of making some knives out of sandvik stainless. They are special purpose knives. I'm looking at some 440C for some other special purpose knives. I have some testing to do in both areas, and a lot more work ahead of me before I'm ready to sell them. But I'm certainly willing to give decent stainless a place. I just, personally, think that place is going to be a bit different - boating and rafting knives, a certain style of PSK knife and a backup wilderness survival tool.
So, why isn't stainless more often seen in WSS wilderness discussions?
I *AM* going to speak as a knifemaker here, which means I'm probably
going to cross some lines regarding the appearance of self
promotion. I have no intention of doing so, and in some respects I'm
hoping to speak with the 'voice' of other makers.
1: customization. I often feel like when I put a knife up for sale,
I'm never going to sell it, because everyone who likes it wants it
just a little bit different. different handle, slight change to the
belly, different length. Given that I do make almost all non stainless
blades at this time, that means carbon is going to 'win' due to the
ease of obtaining a custom tool at a resonable price.
Does this matter? One poster up above gave me the impression that a
tool is a tool and it doesn't. But it does- it's the right tool with
the right feel. I'm goign to give a personal example- Koyote Girl has
a ...lump of some sort on her right middle finger, just below the
second joint on the inside. It's been there all her life and it's too
close to the knuckle for doctors to want to remove it. For her, a
custom knife with a slight indentation to the handle in the right spot
is the difference between hum-ho and bliss.
Tools interact. The grind, belly angles, carry style, handle length,
all this works with you other tools, so being able to choose a grind,
profile, weight that matches your sharpening tools and usage
matters. Since most of the offerings in a reasonable price range that
offer this customization are in non-stainless, non-stainless tends to
be much more prevalent.
2: 'personality'- This is highly related to the customization. Here in
WSS we are often aware of the psychology of survival. This is also the
psychology of performance- personal performance. Here, the difference
in a production SOG fixed blade and a custom 'carbon' fixed blade
maybe be 2 or 5% in strict laboratory terms, but the psychological
difference can and (I would argue) DOES matter to a greater extent. I
have been out camping with scouts and watched parents with crappy or
high quality production knives have similar issues with performance
because they aren't tuned to their tools and don't operate with a high
level of awareness. I have watched people who have a true companion
knife- be that a buck 110 or a small custom EDC, perform at a much
higher level. Since the custom or handmade knife has a bonus fromt he
starting gate in this area, you will often see it more often valued,
photographed, reviewed, referenced- and again, that's going to more
often be 'carbon' steel.
3: performance. Simply put, with a few exceptions that the MARKET
doesn't care for (like 440C) there are many more non-stainless steels
that a typical (ha. what a word) one man shop can produce that you can
rely on for real use. Period. Dot.
Now-
I don't know who this refers to, but I have had similar conversations
a few times in chat. I want to address this, because it actually
sounds very much like a misinterpretation of something I may have
said. If it's not, there's no specific attack on anyone intended. If
it is, there's no specific attack on anyone intended.
I charge, honestly, too little for many of my knives. In terms of
hours and attention to detail. (This is where I'm crossing boundaries,
but they've already been crossed by others). And that is because I
have a hard time demonstrating the art that goes into them to many
people. Yes, art. I pay a lot of attention to my fit and finish, to my
lines, and to my overall aesthetics. Art.
I refuse to cultivate some 'breakout' newfangled and unnecessary thing
like a new filework pattern or multiple odd shaped fullers or
whatever. That's not my art. I make a knife completely, totally, by
hand- no jigs, no patterns, no precuts. The closest I come is
reference to a photo or example of a knife - in another room- then go
out and make at most 3 sharpie marks on a piece of steel (handle
length and ricasso settings, tip position) and start going at
it. Sometimes I have a preform I've forged out to get a specific
shape or thin the steel out some, sometimes I don't. The grinding is
where the 'magic' happens here.
Is this art? yeah. Do I ever get frustrated that artists I socialize
with and random other people don't perceive the art? oh, hell yeah.
Is this pixie dust? No. I'm not taking a coloring book page and
gluing glitter on and trying to charge an extra $50 for it. I'm talking about
spending the extra hour holding a blade and feeling for the handle shape.
I'm talking about taking the extra 30 minutes to make sure my scales are
going to meet up right. I'm talking about adding bluing to the tang of a
knife so the overall finish matches. Details, aesthetics, art. If all you can see
is pixie dust, then... pass on, it's a free market.
This does, definitely, affect pricing. If people think you've just
made another Mora, you can only get so much out of your time (I do not
make $15 an hour after shop costs!)- but if you can, somehow, get
people to see the art, or maybe craftsmanship- in your work, you can
give yourself a halfway decent paycheck.
Bash away, I put a lot into these things, k?
(oh, and the flame marking. I'm one of VERY few makers I know who
occasionally does this. I only do it on osage orange, mostly on request,
and have never done it to hide a defect. I like the way it contrasts
with bright new osage, and the way it fades into the overall handle tone
as the osage ages. it's just friggin cool.)
And the price gouging. Ye gods! Go find me a decent custom maker who
is doing stainless and charging twice as much as he does for
non-stainless!
1095 is cheap, so is 1084! so....the material cost for a 1084 blade is
$2 and the material cost for a higher end stainless is $6. (and 52100,
probably $9. so much for cheap 'carbon!). So? If it's a $175 knife,
it's really not that big a deal. Want to request a $4 discount because
I didn't use VG-10? fine, I'll probably laugh and do it.
I am - have been- in the process of making some knives out of sandvik stainless. They are special purpose knives. I'm looking at some 440C for some other special purpose knives. I have some testing to do in both areas, and a lot more work ahead of me before I'm ready to sell them. But I'm certainly willing to give decent stainless a place. I just, personally, think that place is going to be a bit different - boating and rafting knives, a certain style of PSK knife and a backup wilderness survival tool.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2009
- Messages
- 4,573
Really, really good post, Christof. Well done.
It's really interesting to hear the views on this subject from a maker I respect. Personally, I've always preferred carbon steels ever since I was a wee lad, but that may be only because that's what I grew up with. Nevertheless, I completely trust 1095 as done by Becker or RAT, although I have never really tried a stainless in a fixed blade. I do have stainless bladed folders though, that have served me well for a great many years. I have a Buck 112 that's still going strong after 35 years or so, and that's only 440C. Still, it's been a good knife.
You brought up some points about 10 series steels that I've been wondering about for a long time. I have, for instance, I wondered about, say, 1075 or 1085 vs 1095. I had heard that 1095 was far superior if the heat treat was done properly, but was difficult to do correctly, and that I, as a consumer, probably couldn't tell the difference in use anyway. You've helped clear that up for me somewhat.
Thanks for a good post.
It's really interesting to hear the views on this subject from a maker I respect. Personally, I've always preferred carbon steels ever since I was a wee lad, but that may be only because that's what I grew up with. Nevertheless, I completely trust 1095 as done by Becker or RAT, although I have never really tried a stainless in a fixed blade. I do have stainless bladed folders though, that have served me well for a great many years. I have a Buck 112 that's still going strong after 35 years or so, and that's only 440C. Still, it's been a good knife.
You brought up some points about 10 series steels that I've been wondering about for a long time. I have, for instance, I wondered about, say, 1075 or 1085 vs 1095. I had heard that 1095 was far superior if the heat treat was done properly, but was difficult to do correctly, and that I, as a consumer, probably couldn't tell the difference in use anyway. You've helped clear that up for me somewhat.
Thanks for a good post.
Well said Christof.
There is no such thing as carbon vs. stainless. 1050 is much different than 0-1, and 12c27 is nothing like s30v.
Use the same knife geometry to test two different steel types...Hmmm, which one is the proper geometry for the steel, and which is incorrect? Obviously, not much point.
How about if both have the same hardness? No, that doesn't work because different steels don't necessarily work well in the same range.
Not to rain on a parade, but there is no magic bullet. There is always a compromise. One steel may be tougher than another, but the cost will be edge holding, or corrosion resistance, and/or...cost.
Carbon steels do not have a dead simple heat treat...1080/1084 can. Others, not so much. Look at Scott's post about 0-1.
Stainless difficult to HT? Is it hard for a factory to put a batch of blades in a computer controlled oven that ramps up, temp, holds it for the proper # of minutes, decreases it at the proper rate, holds it, and then lets them air cool?
Is a "problem" with a steel due to whether or not it is corrosion resistant, or due to improper hardness for the application, improper heat treat, improper geometry, improper use of the tool, or something else?
I had a stainless knife that didn't hold an edge for crap, but I knew that it was because the knife was soft. It took a great edge and sharpened easily, so I was GTG. Someone else though may have used the opportunity to show how poorly "stainless" performs. Was the problem that it was stainless?
I have broken the tips on some expensive stainless blades that are run hard. Does that mean that "stainless" is brittle and breaks easily? Or does that mean I was putting undue stress on an extremely fine tip in an improper use of the tool?
In 'typical' use of a knife, in 'typical' conditions, steel type matters considerably less than heat treat, design, or geometry, IMO.
Edited to add: The last statement only holds true up to a point. If an extremely poor choice in steel is made, than changes in design or heat treat may be required that can negatively affect the performance of the tool. At that point, the problem wouldn't be carbon vs. stainless, it would be proper vs. improper design.
There is no such thing as carbon vs. stainless. 1050 is much different than 0-1, and 12c27 is nothing like s30v.
Use the same knife geometry to test two different steel types...Hmmm, which one is the proper geometry for the steel, and which is incorrect? Obviously, not much point.
How about if both have the same hardness? No, that doesn't work because different steels don't necessarily work well in the same range.
Not to rain on a parade, but there is no magic bullet. There is always a compromise. One steel may be tougher than another, but the cost will be edge holding, or corrosion resistance, and/or...cost.
Carbon steels do not have a dead simple heat treat...1080/1084 can. Others, not so much. Look at Scott's post about 0-1.
Stainless difficult to HT? Is it hard for a factory to put a batch of blades in a computer controlled oven that ramps up, temp, holds it for the proper # of minutes, decreases it at the proper rate, holds it, and then lets them air cool?
Is a "problem" with a steel due to whether or not it is corrosion resistant, or due to improper hardness for the application, improper heat treat, improper geometry, improper use of the tool, or something else?
I had a stainless knife that didn't hold an edge for crap, but I knew that it was because the knife was soft. It took a great edge and sharpened easily, so I was GTG. Someone else though may have used the opportunity to show how poorly "stainless" performs. Was the problem that it was stainless?
I have broken the tips on some expensive stainless blades that are run hard. Does that mean that "stainless" is brittle and breaks easily? Or does that mean I was putting undue stress on an extremely fine tip in an improper use of the tool?
In 'typical' use of a knife, in 'typical' conditions, steel type matters considerably less than heat treat, design, or geometry, IMO.
Edited to add: The last statement only holds true up to a point. If an extremely poor choice in steel is made, than changes in design or heat treat may be required that can negatively affect the performance of the tool. At that point, the problem wouldn't be carbon vs. stainless, it would be proper vs. improper design.
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m. wohlwend
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This thread started out as a question as to stainless steels, and went way off course when an attack was launched on custom makers and prodution makers saying its our fault that stainless is not used that much. All one has to do is look at the manafactures test on different steels and the compontents of each steel. Stainless and carbon steels are different! Research is not hard to do. Crucible was one company that posted lots of data on their steels. This is a free market, so the person complaining about all the custom makers should invest 20k in a shop of his own and produce knives the way he thinks they should be made.
As to tools performance in the cold...
The cold can create a physical change in the tool, just like hardening and tempering can. Different steels are effected to a different extent, depending on their composition and heat treat.
Basically, portions of the steel change into a form like that of a just-quenched steel, which is extremely hard and brittle. Some steels and heat treats do not leave room for this sort of action, other do.
It is said that the overly high carbon content of the plate used in the construction of the Titanic contributed to the sinking of the ship, and that studies show it could very well have come apart just from normal stresses, without hitting an iceberg, just due to the cold. Interestingly, I don't believe the Titanic was stainless, either.
The cold can create a physical change in the tool, just like hardening and tempering can. Different steels are effected to a different extent, depending on their composition and heat treat.
Basically, portions of the steel change into a form like that of a just-quenched steel, which is extremely hard and brittle. Some steels and heat treats do not leave room for this sort of action, other do.
It is said that the overly high carbon content of the plate used in the construction of the Titanic contributed to the sinking of the ship, and that studies show it could very well have come apart just from normal stresses, without hitting an iceberg, just due to the cold. Interestingly, I don't believe the Titanic was stainless, either.
m. wohlwend
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As Christof says, most of the knifemakers here on this forum are far beyond the days of "heat with a torch, dunk in waste oil" days. Stereotyping all makers because there is a few that don't take their craft seriously or choose to educate themselves is a big mistake.
m. wohlwend
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As to tools performance in the cold...
The cold can create a physical change in the tool, just like hardening and tempering can. Different steels are effected to a different extent, depending on their composition and heat treat.
Basically, portions of the steel change into a form like that of a just-quenched steel, which is extremely hard and brittle. Some steels and heat treats do not leave room for this sort of action, other do.
It is said that the overly high carbon content of the plate used in the construction of the Titanic contributed to the sinking of the ship, and that studies show it could very well have come apart just from normal stresses, without hitting an iceberg, just due to the cold. Interestingly, I don't believe the Titanic was stainless, either.
The titanic had to much sulfur and oxygen in the steel!
the steel of the Titanic suffered from brittle fracture. It did not bend.
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For many years it was common for me to spend nine months out of a year in the woods. In these prolonged stays, the strength and weaknesses of eqipment become glaringly clear, and even small deficiencies become major drawbacks. At the time I was using strictly carbon steel knives. They were reasonbly tough, easy to sharpen, and performed well. The drawbacks were that I had to sharpen them frequently and they rusted quickly, especially where new steel was exposed - this means the edge. These knives were carried and used 24/7, 270 days a year. I became interested in stainless in order to eliminate the oxidation problem. One point I have not seen brought up, is what happens when rust begans to form between the handle/slabs and tang. I am currently working with a old well known maker concerning this problem I am having with a knife of his I have used for a long time. Switching over to stainless eliminated the rust, made the edge more difficult to sharpen, but held the edge longer. I now use stainless more than carbon, but find that the design of the knife, type of profile, and the heat treatment all contribute just as importantly to the overall effectivenees as the type of steel used. Many of the complaints against stainless are based on old information and no longer hold true. The differences between the two have also narrowed with time, a better understanding of how to treat the alloys, and new steels. I use both, and will continue to do so. I understand the strengthes and weaknesses of both, however I continue to use more stainless than not. Let's remember, stainless steel knives are now just approaching their 100th birthday, mighty young compared to the overall age of knives.
The titanic had to much sulfur in the steel!
Too much of everything! As I understand it, carbon content was through the roof as well. Apparently, there can be too much carbon.
t1mpani
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Well, baldtaco-II, clearly there are some burrs in your ass that have dug deep holes into it over a long time and I'm not going to try and extract them, and you are certainly entitled to your opinions and might even have genuine experiences that support them.
I must, however, take issue with one thing you said that I've seen others espouse recently, and it's a notion that fails laughably under the tiniest amount of scrutiny--that having to do with the use of "cheap steels" and the effect it has on the pricing ratio. Yes, cheap knives have been made out of 1095. Cheap knives have also been made with brass guards. And steel guards. With wood handles. With bone and stag handles. I saw a really crappy knife at a gun show a few months ago that had a stainless blade (type untold) brass guard and "GENUINE STAG!" handle for $34.99. So clearly brass and stag can be had at a price where you can turn stuff out at less than $50.00, and all those custom makers who've ever turned out a stag handled knife that costs significantly more are just ripping you off, right? If you're unable to grasp the indefensible stupidity of that notion then you're very likely beyond all help.
The materials are not what you're paying for. If that were the case, I ought to be able to get a bunch of wood, wire and ivory together and charge Steinway prices for whatever I'm able to turn out from it that sort of looks like a piano. Now, in the case of very expensive materials (mammoth bone, S110-V steel, gold inlay) they'll likely up the price a bit, but what you're paying for from a custom maker, or what I'M paying for, at least, is attention to detail and the ability to get something exactly the way I want it. I'm paying for expertise and time put in.
"I want a skinning knife made out of CPM-M4 at 63-64 HRC using this blade shape from one of your other knives, but I want you to lengthen the handle for me and do a much deeper hollow grind because this is a pure skinning knife and I want sharpening room." Custom maker says "sure", production maker says, "Sorry, these are the models I offer..."
The above isn't a hypothetical, by the way, but the genuine order I gave to Phillip Patton several months ago for the knife I used on my hunting trip to Wyoming just six weeks ago. Now, I already had a Spyderco Mule in M4 at around the same hardness range that was significantly less than the knife Phillip made me. The reason Phillip's was more expensive wasn't because of the G10 handle scales that it has and the Mule doesn't, it was because it was not made in bulk or cut out by machine, was taken to a much higher level of finish, and was given a LOT more attention to detail than a production maker can get into. Honestly, I can't even remember what the issue was (I think because it turned out to be a non-issue for me) but there was some aspect of the grind that he wasn't sure was the way I wanted it, and he sent me pictures and asked if I wanted him to start over. I mean, it was most of the way done, and CPM-M4 is expensive, and a pain in the ASS to work with, and if I'd said, "Yeah, do it again please" I'd have still paid our agreed price. I didn't, but I could have. Yes, he could still finish the other later and probably sell it without much trouble, but he was wanting it to be exactly what I had ordered, and was willing to put the time in to fix it if it needed fixing. As it turned out, he was wrong--it was perfect.
Yes, I enjoyed every single minute of using it on the four antelope my group got (I'm the fastest skinner and so always get stuck with it), but my enjoyment didn't come from having received it and declaring, "I dub thee Dragonslasher, and I believe that every time you taste blood it causes your tortured spirit to gain nourishment from the soul of the animal beneath your mighty edge!!" No, it came from the fact that the lengthened handle had plenty of room for my big hand, the blade shape is perfect for the way I skin, and damned if M4 at that hardness doesn't keep its edge FOREVER. Better than my Dozier skinners, which I'm certainly a fan of. And oh yes, it's not stainless---it's actually much more aggressive in its corrosive tendencies than 1095. So what? I carry a few soft packets of alcohol swabs in my pocket (and have for years) and all traces of blood and fat are removed from the knife before going back in the sheath with about 30 seconds effort. Hasn't pitted yet. For that matter, I don't think I have a single non-stainless blade that's pitted. Hmmmmm...
Of course, M4 is a new steel. One of the other absolute favorite hunter/skinners I have is made out of W2---oh yes, ancient, decrepit, nobody-offers-it-anymore W2 file steel. Used it for years, and even with my new wonderful Patton M4 blade, it's still a near thing between them. But, I'm sure it's all nostalgia, I couldn't possibly know what I'm doing.
You discern foolish sentimentality among those who "cling" to these old alloys. Fair enough. I discern foolish fan-boy idolatry in many who believe that the newest things on the block are inherently superior because the people who make them (and want to sell them) claim that they're better than what's come before. Kind of like every year some college quarterback (Florida's being the current favorite) is the "best that we've ever seen!" Well, either quarterbacks are improving at a constant, exponential rate and will soon be able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, or there's a lot of flavor of the month hype in the air and people just buy it. I believe the latter.
You're quite correct that stainless has come a long way over the years. I like and use many stainless steels, and feel that there are things they excel at. While I prefer non-stainless for an outdoor knife, I very much prefer stainless in a kitchen knife, especially a vegetable knife, as the acidic nature of that cutting medium will aggressively dull (in the form of corrosion) steels not suited to resist it. On the other hand, you couldn't GIVE me a stainless axe, as the high impact nature of its cutting medium will also aggressively dull (in the form of fracture) steels not suited to resist it.
440A makes a better dive knife than D2--has nothing to do with it being older and cheaper. D2 makes a better skinning knife than 5160--has nothing to do with it being newer and more expensive. Each alloy has its own properties and attributes, and none is ever free from weaknesses to go along with strengths.
Use what you like, experiment, and trust your experiences. But the, "I know better than all of them and there couldn't possibly be a real reason for what they believe" kind of thinking smacks much less of being enlightened and more of being a jackass know-it-all. Every teenager is just absolutely sure they know better than any adult who might make a suggestion to them, but thankfully, most become more mature as time moves on.
I must, however, take issue with one thing you said that I've seen others espouse recently, and it's a notion that fails laughably under the tiniest amount of scrutiny--that having to do with the use of "cheap steels" and the effect it has on the pricing ratio. Yes, cheap knives have been made out of 1095. Cheap knives have also been made with brass guards. And steel guards. With wood handles. With bone and stag handles. I saw a really crappy knife at a gun show a few months ago that had a stainless blade (type untold) brass guard and "GENUINE STAG!" handle for $34.99. So clearly brass and stag can be had at a price where you can turn stuff out at less than $50.00, and all those custom makers who've ever turned out a stag handled knife that costs significantly more are just ripping you off, right? If you're unable to grasp the indefensible stupidity of that notion then you're very likely beyond all help.
The materials are not what you're paying for. If that were the case, I ought to be able to get a bunch of wood, wire and ivory together and charge Steinway prices for whatever I'm able to turn out from it that sort of looks like a piano. Now, in the case of very expensive materials (mammoth bone, S110-V steel, gold inlay) they'll likely up the price a bit, but what you're paying for from a custom maker, or what I'M paying for, at least, is attention to detail and the ability to get something exactly the way I want it. I'm paying for expertise and time put in.
"I want a skinning knife made out of CPM-M4 at 63-64 HRC using this blade shape from one of your other knives, but I want you to lengthen the handle for me and do a much deeper hollow grind because this is a pure skinning knife and I want sharpening room." Custom maker says "sure", production maker says, "Sorry, these are the models I offer..."
The above isn't a hypothetical, by the way, but the genuine order I gave to Phillip Patton several months ago for the knife I used on my hunting trip to Wyoming just six weeks ago. Now, I already had a Spyderco Mule in M4 at around the same hardness range that was significantly less than the knife Phillip made me. The reason Phillip's was more expensive wasn't because of the G10 handle scales that it has and the Mule doesn't, it was because it was not made in bulk or cut out by machine, was taken to a much higher level of finish, and was given a LOT more attention to detail than a production maker can get into. Honestly, I can't even remember what the issue was (I think because it turned out to be a non-issue for me) but there was some aspect of the grind that he wasn't sure was the way I wanted it, and he sent me pictures and asked if I wanted him to start over. I mean, it was most of the way done, and CPM-M4 is expensive, and a pain in the ASS to work with, and if I'd said, "Yeah, do it again please" I'd have still paid our agreed price. I didn't, but I could have. Yes, he could still finish the other later and probably sell it without much trouble, but he was wanting it to be exactly what I had ordered, and was willing to put the time in to fix it if it needed fixing. As it turned out, he was wrong--it was perfect.
Yes, I enjoyed every single minute of using it on the four antelope my group got (I'm the fastest skinner and so always get stuck with it), but my enjoyment didn't come from having received it and declaring, "I dub thee Dragonslasher, and I believe that every time you taste blood it causes your tortured spirit to gain nourishment from the soul of the animal beneath your mighty edge!!" No, it came from the fact that the lengthened handle had plenty of room for my big hand, the blade shape is perfect for the way I skin, and damned if M4 at that hardness doesn't keep its edge FOREVER. Better than my Dozier skinners, which I'm certainly a fan of. And oh yes, it's not stainless---it's actually much more aggressive in its corrosive tendencies than 1095. So what? I carry a few soft packets of alcohol swabs in my pocket (and have for years) and all traces of blood and fat are removed from the knife before going back in the sheath with about 30 seconds effort. Hasn't pitted yet. For that matter, I don't think I have a single non-stainless blade that's pitted. Hmmmmm...
Of course, M4 is a new steel. One of the other absolute favorite hunter/skinners I have is made out of W2---oh yes, ancient, decrepit, nobody-offers-it-anymore W2 file steel. Used it for years, and even with my new wonderful Patton M4 blade, it's still a near thing between them. But, I'm sure it's all nostalgia, I couldn't possibly know what I'm doing.
You discern foolish sentimentality among those who "cling" to these old alloys. Fair enough. I discern foolish fan-boy idolatry in many who believe that the newest things on the block are inherently superior because the people who make them (and want to sell them) claim that they're better than what's come before. Kind of like every year some college quarterback (Florida's being the current favorite) is the "best that we've ever seen!" Well, either quarterbacks are improving at a constant, exponential rate and will soon be able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, or there's a lot of flavor of the month hype in the air and people just buy it. I believe the latter.
You're quite correct that stainless has come a long way over the years. I like and use many stainless steels, and feel that there are things they excel at. While I prefer non-stainless for an outdoor knife, I very much prefer stainless in a kitchen knife, especially a vegetable knife, as the acidic nature of that cutting medium will aggressively dull (in the form of corrosion) steels not suited to resist it. On the other hand, you couldn't GIVE me a stainless axe, as the high impact nature of its cutting medium will also aggressively dull (in the form of fracture) steels not suited to resist it.
440A makes a better dive knife than D2--has nothing to do with it being older and cheaper. D2 makes a better skinning knife than 5160--has nothing to do with it being newer and more expensive. Each alloy has its own properties and attributes, and none is ever free from weaknesses to go along with strengths.
Use what you like, experiment, and trust your experiences. But the, "I know better than all of them and there couldn't possibly be a real reason for what they believe" kind of thinking smacks much less of being enlightened and more of being a jackass know-it-all. Every teenager is just absolutely sure they know better than any adult who might make a suggestion to them, but thankfully, most become more mature as time moves on.
m. wohlwend
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Too much of everything! As I understand it, carbon content was through the roof as well. Apparently, there can be too much carbon.
And it was heat-treated right!
but I forgot, we are not suppose to be talking about heat treats in this thread! 
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G'day Christof
It's far more complicated than generalisations about one category of steel being better than another can accurately address.
Kind regards
Mick
I agree :thumbup:
It's far more complicated than generalisations about one category of steel being better than another can accurately address.
Kind regards
Mick
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Research suggests this is more than a spiritual belief but in fact has tangible and measurable results.
Normally I like carbon steel for my blades, they suit my needs better. However, to those who disparage custom knife makers and suggest they don't use stainless steels, AND if they do use stainless, suggest that it is overpriced and ridiculous, I have news: Your argument is flawed. I just got this in the mail only minutes ago (pictures below), made of 1/8 inch STAINLESS ATS34 for $65 dollars with sheath, shipped. The fit and finish are incredible and the value is out of this world. I am grateful, and humbled to own it, as I am all my custom knives.
