State of the state.....

[SharpByCoop]

Spent a morning with Matt Parkinson shooting a BUNCH of knives, swords, and whatnot from his successful blacksmith/artist shop here in CT (Dragon's Breath Forge).

He relates he's selling nicely on Etsy.com. Another lead, and with direct-to-buyer processing.

We've learned a LOT in this thread.

Open talk: The evil dealers who have invested a LOT of money in inventory and support our industry with purchases directly to the maker are ALSO trying to make a living and that involves making a profit.

Martin, if you purchased two knives at $15K and then SOLD them at 15K where is the room for profit if they don't sell for even more? Is it fair to target escalating prices squarely on their shoulders? Each time a new high has been reached by a buyer, it shapes the current climate. And, I guess, the same can be said of the a new 'low', although that is represented by unsold inventory.

I don't have an answer. It's complex, isn't it?

Coop

 

[jdm61]

The custom kitchen knife market is different, IMO. For every Thomas Keller or Charlie Palmer actually using a Kramer, I suspect you have one if not more Kramers sitting between a $50,000+ La Cornue range and an $8000 Rachiele copper sink and the sink is the only one of the three that ever gets anything remotely resembling regular use. The big difference is that you will likely never see either the Keller or the Uber-yuppie knife the secondary market.

 

[betzner]

I see lots of Italian knives (arbitrary - applies to most countries) that have risen in price (USD) on the secondary market (read that as dealer price) over the last year or so (it seems), during which time the strength of the US dollar has risen greatly. But all things being equal, they should have dropped in price when taking arbitrage into account. Same can be said for knives, I would think, since the relative strength of the dollar to most other currencies has had a drastic impact on much world pricing.

As the dollar strengthens, if dealers (who can reap the value of the stronger dollar) kept such knife prices the same, it still makes their cutlery products more expensive for non-US buyers. I think many of us can name a few countries where sales of US goods have declined precipitously. I realize I am oversimplifying a complex global value issue, but it makes it easier to understand sometimes - and keeps me from having to write a book here.

I only bring this up because I don't think it's been mentioned in the thread so far - yet another reason some higher value product has not sold. The affect may be minimal in numbers of knives, but may affect a larger dollar number of them. Thus, mid-high end pieces are available, albeit at higher prices, rather than never seen on websites.

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

Don't really give a flying "eff" if the newer folks know that Jim Cooper and I are good friends.....they can read the thread and learn, or they can decide they don't want to read and learn. Ken, you need to understand this.

I grew up in upstate NY and then the Metropolitan area as an older teen, spent 4 years in the Navy, 10 years tattooing and another 7 working in the apparel industry. I have a very, very dark soul, a twisted sense of humor and a fair share of issues. What has happened in the last few years has IMPROVED my perception, not darkened it. Don't have kids because I am too selfish, and have watched too many close to me spawn and have never really felt that the progeny exceeded the quality of the parents, which is hopefully the point.




He's active enough. Saw him at Solvang, he was fantastically informed about who is hot, who is not and what his preferences are. He's forgotten more about collecting premium knives than 10 of the new folks I have spoken with will understand in their lifetimes...and certainly worth mentioning.

Besides a pile of quoting, I'd be interested in your observations about the market as you view them.....while we have our differences and they may get worse before they get better, your thoughts are worthwhile.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I did quote a lot . . . and for every quote, I added a comment.

However, I will expand upon two of my comments which best express my opinion on the "state of the state" and add a couple of more.

1) IMO, the ABS is slowly killing itself off by slowly eradicating the value of its marks. Their organization; they can do what they want. But I would generally advise any new collector to be VARY wary of buying a knife with an MS stamp because it seems to be viewed by some as a guarantor or quality (which in fact it does not represent), and therefore a license to jack up the price , , , and the mythical claims about secondary market value appear to me to be nothing but myths. Unless you know - really know - what you are buying, I would advise newer collectors to stay far, far away from MS knives, as many/most of their prices are inflated by the MS stamp for no real good reason. If I was a young MS, I would be clamoring for an infusion of new blood with the long term view in mind. But I am sure that they do not GAFF what I think.

2) Nathan is doing some of the most interesting things to me in the field of non-mass produced fixed blade knives. I own several of his knives and recommend them to others.

3) I believe that it is only a matter of time until there is going to be a flood of too many knives dumped into the secondary market at prices which they cannot fetch. At that point, prices may start to collapse . . . precipitously. Does anyone remember Ed Worsmer's knife auctions? I tracked those auction prices and even bought a couple of pieces for a LOT less than I could have obtained the same pieces from the maker, never mind the secondary market. That was when it first occurred to me that the only thing propping up prices in the secondary market is stubbornness by secondary market sellers unwilling to sell at a loss or even at par value. When/if that stubbornness is ever overcome by a lack of remaining patience, a need for capital, death/inheritance, and/or desperation . . . Katy bar the door!

4) We always read that makers need to know their secondary market prices, and that is true of course. I think once upon a time that most makers sold their knives for a bit less than the secondary market prices. But I think I am now seeing too many makers trying to capture ALL of the secondary market pricing for themselves. Short term, that might be great. Long term . . . that leaves buyers with knives they will only be able to sell for a loss. Which brings down the makers secondary market pricing . . . and scares away other new buyers.

Time to clear up whether I'm "active". I sold my collection, everything, but not all at once, the last two knives to go were sold at the Solvang show 2 1/2 years ago. Sold for what I paid for them, a pair of engraved Italian made folders, $15,000 and sold to a dealer, they languished on a website for over a year at 15K and I doubt they sold for that. I still pay attention to the knife world, still like knives, attend shows like Solvang and the AKI, am friendly with some collectors and makers, and I pay attention to the websites. No instagram or facebook.
So the state of the state in my opinion. Prices are ridiculous. Dealers created unrealistic expectations of price increases and buyers fell for it. The idea that prices can only go up and never come down is prevalent and it's makers, dealers, and collectors that think this way. A Bogi Cobra with orange peel bolsters and G-10 for $4000? I could go on and on but a little article I read in the Wall Street Journal pretty much sums up my feelings. The article was about Polo shirts and how you needed a few for summer. Five choices and the most expensive was a designer label for over $500. So in the letters section a guy wrote "you would have to be an imbecile to pay $500 for a Polo shirt". I know people say something is worth what someone will pay for it but I don't agree, at some point it's just stupid regardless of how much you've got. And that's how I started to feel about knives, I could afford them, high prices didn't affect my life or keep me from doing something else that I needed the money for, I decided I could enjoy knives at shows without possessing them, and, I was sick of all the lies, BS, false optimism and shenanigans of the dealers.

Always nice to read one of your posts, Martin. You and I have discussed this before, and I empathize with everything you said. It makes me think seriously about knife collecting more than all of the other posts on this thread combined. My problem is that I still like to actually hold elegant and well-made knives in my hands. I can't do that to a picture, and it is a long time between shows. Maybe someday I will figure a way that I can just rent such knives, or I will develop the willpower for knife celibacy that you seem to possess , and if that happens then I guess I will follow your lead.

I feel the very same way, Martin. It was, by the way, good to see you at Solvang. Hey, Everyone started up-selling and no one quit. Screw that crap. If certain knives come down to an APPROPRIATE level, I'll buy. But it my opinion, it all falls back on the secondary market price-setters whose greed and expectations of ever-escalating prices has to a large part driven me away from purchasing. Makers who have tried to follow the ever-rising pricing trends with higher prices will not get any of my money. I've sold probably half of my collection over time, luckily before this hit to the secondary market, but am not about to sell the best pieces no matter the pricing.

And I've found that it can be just as gratifying chasing down a specially-handled CPK knife (Nathan the Machinist aka Nathan Carothers/Lorien Arnold collab) for both it's usefulness and for two other reasons, which I'll keep to myself. There is a reason CPK knives are sought after, but others must find out themselves.

To summarize, screw the maker or dealer who shows and/or charges outlandish pricing - unless he or the piece rise to the level of BW.

I feel a lot of that, too.

Spent a morning with Matt Parkinson shooting a BUNCH of knives, swords, and whatnot from his successful blacksmith/artist shop here in CT (Dragon's Breath Forge).

He relates he's selling nicely on Etsy.com. Another lead, and with direct-to-buyer processing.

We've learned a LOT in this thread.

Open talk: The evil dealers who have invested a LOT of money in inventory and support our industry with purchases directly to the maker are ALSO trying to make a living and that involves making a profit.

Martin, if you purchased two knives at $15K and then SOLD them at 15K where is the room for profit if they don't sell for even more? Is it fair to target escalating prices squarely on their shoulders? Each time a new high has been reached by a buyer, it shapes the current climate. And, I guess, the same can be said of the a new 'low', although that is represented by unsold inventory.

I don't have an answer. It's complex, isn't it?

Coop

I certainly do not view dealers as "evil." In some case they might support makers by buying knives that could not sell at a show and holding them until the right collectors come around to buy them. But in other cases, they stuff boxes and win drawings at shows like AKI against collectors who actually just want to add the knives to their collections, and then they jack up the prices without really adding anything of value AFAICT. It is a free world and everyone has bills to pay, and as long as they play by the rules that is fine. And it certainly does not make them evil. But it does sort of add some perspective about how they "support the industry."

I see lots of Italian knives (arbitrary - applies to most countries) that have risen in price (USD) on the secondary market (read that as dealer price) over the last year or so (it seems), during which time the strength of the US dollar has risen greatly. But all things being equal, they should have dropped in price when taking arbitrage into account. Same can be said for knives, I would think, since the relative strength of the dollar to most other currencies has had a drastic impact on much world pricing.

As the dollar strengthens, if dealers (who can reap the value of the stronger dollar) kept such knife prices the same, it still makes their cutlery products more expensive for non-US buyers. I think many of us can name a few countries where sales of US goods have declined precipitously. I realize I am oversimplifying a complex global value issue, but it makes it easier to understand sometimes - and keeps me from having to write a book here.

I only bring this up because I don't think it's been mentioned in the thread so far - yet another reason some higher value product has not sold. The affect may be minimal in numbers of knives, but may affect a larger dollar number of them. Thus, mid-high end pieces are available, albeit at higher prices, rather than never seen on websites.

A good point. I and a friend of mine have wondered about and discussed the same thing. If the dollar is up against the Euro, then why are prices from European makers not reflecting that? I mean . . . AT ALL. Their new knives, priced in dollars, seem to be the same or higher than their old prices. Meanwhile, many of their knives seem to languish on dealer websites for months . . . or years. Interesting.

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

I have found a mistake on almost every mastersmith knife ive owned. Exceptions in my current collection are my two john whites and four tim hancocks. THere are a few other random stand out peices but most of my favorite knives are not 100% perfect from side to side. Its ok as long as i love the knife and find it beautiful. But in my experience buyimg some other random mastersmith made knives from the more old school original ABS crew the knives are always showing uneven grinds and what not.

My experience is similar. IMO, the two makers you mentioned stand out with a VERY few others in a place by themselves. I have never seen a significantly flawed knife from either one of them. I am guessing they made some - they just did not see the light of day. Maybe a personal pride thing?

I will add this. A couple of my favorite ABS makers are real old school. Besides the fact that I like them personally, many of their knives are exceptional in quality and I own a few of them. But I have seen too many others on their tables with MS stamps, large prices , , , and very significant issues. If I see these issues, they must, too. And it makes me feel bad wondering why they are selling these knives that maybe should have just been scrapped. Again, I guess we all have bills to pay and maybe it is too much to expect a knifemaker to scrap a knife that he put a lot of time making, just because it turned out to be half a turd. Never been in those shoes, so in the end I don't feel that I can judge it. It is what it is.

 

[Wulf]

If the dollar is up against the Euro, then why are prices from European makers not reflecting that? I mean . . . AT ALL. Their new knives, priced in dollars, seem to be the same or higher than their old prices. Meanwhile, many of their knives seem to languish on dealer websites for months . . . or years. Interesting.

European makers who attend shows in the U.S. have to pay their table fees, hotel rooms, food etc. in dollars. For them to be able to recoup these travel and show expenses (and in some cases material costs as well) they need to keep their prices - in dollars - as is. But more importantly, it's a free market. Prices reflect what customers are willing to pay.

And this applies to all makers, dealers, and collectors alike. If the market is willing to pay one price, why do some people think that the maker, dealer, or fellow collector should sell it to them for less?

It's easy to understand why buyers want the best price they can get for their purchases. Why is it so difficult to understand that sellers also want they best price they can get?

As has been pointed out by many astute participants already, the market is changing in many ways. Some of yesterday's makers and collectors are exiting while while a new generation is coming in. Styles change, venues change, and prices change as well. And isn't it funny that some of the people who are saying that the market is weak and prices are falling, are saying in the very same breath that other prices have risen too much? If the things you want to sell are too cheap, and the things you want to buy are too expensive, well maybe that's just the market's way of telling you that you missed the boat.

Is the market wrong? Maybe... Or, as an old wall street veteran once told me, there's no such this as "wrong," only early or late.

A number of people have brought up the tactical folder genre, where a combination of social media hype and effective marketing campaigns have propelled some prices to "unsustainable levels." Some have mentioned that it reminds them of the dot-com stock bubble of the late 1990s, where any stock with a business model even tangentially related to the internet rose to sky-high valuations - irrespective of the quality of its balance sheet - while good, solid blue chip stocks just languished. Is today's overbuilt, clunky, machined and anodized titanium frame lock with a sharpened pry-bar blade our market's version of pets.com? Yeah, maybe it is. But yelling at the ticker-tape was no more effective an investment strategy in 1999 than complaining on bladeforums about the new instagram knifemaker sensations is today.

The market will do what the market will do. Those who get caught up in the hype and buy pets.com at the height of the frenzy will get burned and possibly never come back, while those who recognize it for what it is and ride out the volatility with a few good blue-chips will remember fondly the days the bubble finally burst and they were able to buy some great pieces at bargain-basement prices when they got thrown out with the bathwater. The decisions you make as a collector need to reflect your own personal situation as much as your tastes, desires, and market knowledge. A lot of very insightful perspectives from many well-informed players have been shared here already. Anyone who has made it this far into the thread is much better for it. The best any of us can hope to do is to enjoy the interactions with our friends and peers in this great community and to invest our money wisely while we're still here.

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

European makers who attend shows in the U.S. have to pay their table fees, hotel rooms, food etc. in dollars. For them to be able to recoup these travel and show expenses (and in some cases material costs as well) they need to keep their prices - in dollars - as is. But more importantly, it's a free market. Prices reflect what customers are willing to pay.

And this applies to all makers, dealers, and collectors alike. If the market is willing to pay one price, why do some people think that the maker, dealer, or fellow collector should sell it to them for less?

It's easy to understand why buyers want the best price they can get for their purchases. Why is it so difficult to understand that sellers also want they best price they can get?

As has been pointed out by many astute participants already, the market is changing in many ways. Some of yesterday's makers and collectors are exiting while while a new generation is coming in. Styles change, venues change, and prices change as well. And isn't it funny that some of the people who are saying that the market is weak and prices are falling, are saying in the very same breath that other prices have risen too much? If the things you want to sell are too cheap, and the things you want to buy are too expensive, well maybe that's just the market's way of telling you that you missed the boat.

Is the market wrong? Maybe... Or, as an old wall street veteran once told me, there's no such this as "wrong," only early or late.

A number of people have brought up the tactical folder genre, where a combination of social media hype and effective marketing campaigns have propelled some prices to "unsustainable levels." Some have mentioned that it reminds them of the dot-com stock bubble of the late 1990s, where any stock with a business model even tangentially related to the internet rose to sky-high valuations - irrespective of the quality of its balance sheet - while good, solid blue chip stocks just languished. Is today's overbuilt, clunky, machined and anodized titanium frame lock with a sharpened pry-bar blade our market's version of pets.com? Yeah, maybe it is. But yelling at the ticker-tape was no more effective an investment strategy in 1999 than complaining on bladeforums about the new instagram knifemaker sensations is today.

The market will do what the market will do. Those who get caught up in the hype and buy pets.com at the height of the frenzy will get burned and possibly never come back, while those who recognize it for what it is and ride out the volatility with a few good blue-chips will remember fondly the days the bubble finally burst and they were able to buy some great pieces at bargain-basement prices when they got thrown out with the bathwater. The decisions you make as a collector need to reflect your own personal situation as much as your tastes, desires, and market knowledge. A lot of very insightful perspectives from many well-informed players have been shared here already. Anyone who has made it this far into the thread is much better for it. The best any of us can hope to do is to enjoy the interactions with our friends and peers in this great community and to invest our money wisely while we're still here.

Nice post.

A couple of comments, since you quoted me.

1) I do a lot of business with Europeans both selling and buying services. Their services (especially the ones priced in British pounds!) are all a lot cheaper for me than a few years ago, and they are all complaining a lot more about my prices - which have not changed in dollars. You cite "table fees, hotel rooms, food etc." So let's say that a European maker has $50000 worth of knives at a show like AKI, Solvang, ECCKS, etc. What percentage of that is really "table fees, hotel rooms, food etc." and what percentage is net income to be converted back into Euros for paying the bills back home in Euros? I think you have to admit that SOME of that (actually, MOST of it) is net income from labor . . . and a net income of even $30000 is worth more today in Euros (which is what the mortgage and food bills back home are priced in) than a few years ago. IF all other things were equal, European labor that was $30000 when the dollar was weaker should definitely be less in dollars now that the dollar is stronger. It just should be. But it isn't, and I find that interesting. That's all.

2) I agree that sales prices reflect what customers are willing to pay . . . sometimes less. But it is also true that a seller sets an asking price based on what they are willing to sell for . . . usually a tad more . . . and that does not necessarily reflect what a customer is willing to pay. I see some pieces languishing for years . . . not sure anyone is ever actually paying that asking price.

3) Can't speak for anyone else, but just to be perfectly clear, I do not "think that the maker, dealer, or fellow collector should sell it to [me] for less." No one has any right to anyone else's knife. I absolutely understand trying to get as much as you can for your product! And if I think the price is too high, I not only won't buy, but I might tell others that I think it is too high. Free market; free speech!

4) I did not get involved investing into the dot com bubble. But I sure as hell TALKED about it at the time. That is all folks are doing here. Anything wrong with that? I think such discussion is a good thing and the astute listener can often pick up enough to avoid becoming a bubble loser. And it is not only the bubble losers who do not come back - it is a lot of folks watching the bubble losers and consider their misfortune to be a "lesson learned." Look at the NASDAQ . . . when dot com busted, how many folks stayed away for many, many, many years. It wasn't just those who got busted. How many years did it take for NASDAQ just to get back even with its 2000 peak? A little more than 15 years!

 

[Wulf]

Agreed on pretty much all points, although to your first example, it's largely a function of scale and net margins. The net conversion factor for a maker with €50,000 of work on his table is much different than it is for the maker with €5,000 on his table.

Regarding my comment about people wanting to buy a knife at something less than where it's currently selling, my wording there was deliberately provocative. Because truthfully, I understand that sentiment much more than I care to admit. The fact is, it happens in all markets from time to time that new entrants will enthusiastically - and sometimes blindly - drive up prices for products that well-informed and experienced players would never even consider to be rational, especially when compared with well-known industry benchmarks. This is a relative-value assessment that applies just as much to the custom knife market as it does to any other asset market - even stocks.

Those of us who have been around for a while, who have invested a lot of time and energy educating ourselves, conducting market research, performing our due diligence on makers etc. want our years of hard work to pay off. We want the market to confirm our own hard-won beliefs. We want to be proven right. And when a guy like STeven, whose knowledge of custom knives is deeper than 99% of the collectors out there, is selling knives at a loss while some young whippersnapper who's never even heard of Bob Loveless is making thousands of dollars flipping cookie-cutter knives on instagram, well it just seems wrong, doesn't it?

But like I said, the market will do what it will do. There will be trend-following momentum traders, there will be contrarian reversal traders, there will be relative value traders, and there will be arbitrageurs. Some will do well, some will not, most will have a few ups and downs along the way. It is what it is... But we're all fortunate in that we are in this together because of our deep appreciation and enjoyment of fine, well-made knives. And even if the value of our investment goes down, we can still enjoy it.

Besides, you can't use a share of stock to peel an apple or stab an intruder

 

[martinr]

What about value for money? My opinion is that prices are ridiculous and I see it like this, knives are toys and when you compare prices of toys like knives with other items that are bought with discretionary income knives seem like a bad deal. For example, there is a knife, a Joe Kious knife engraved by Barry Lee Hands on the Knife Treasures website for over $59,000! Now, it's a nice looking knife, Kious was a good maker and Barry is a good engraver but think about this, would you rather have that knife or a brand new 2017 BMW 428i convertible? If that's an extreme example what about the $4000 tactical that's a couple of titanium slabs, a pivot and a bead blasted blade. $4000 can buy........fill in the blank, I'm sure you won't have any trouble coming up with something that seems like it's "worth" more.

 

[brownshoe]

...And when a guy like STeven, whose knowledge of custom knives is deeper than 99% of the collectors out there, is selling knives at a loss while some young whippersnapper who's never even heard of Bob Loveless is making thousands of dollars flipping cookie-cutter knives on instagram, well it just seems wrong, doesn't it?...

What's wrong about it? It's the world of luxury collectibles, thus it is not surprising that a "young whippersnapper" would know what their generation wants to buy.

If you're into folders, there's no need to know the name Bob Loveless, but I'll bet you the "young whippersnapper" knows the name Bob Terzuola. I didn't sell my Terzuola but traded it for about 2x what I paid...and it was to an old geezer-dealer who wanted fresh stock for the "young whippersnapper."

 

[Wulf]

Martin, for every $59,000 Kious there are a hundreds of bargains to be found at knife shows, other dealer websites, or right here in the for sale forum. A maker does not need to be famous or deceased to be good, and there can be great joy in "discovering" a new or otherwise unknown maker of high quality knives. I attended a show in Belgium last year and was almost embarrassed by some of the prices a few of the makers there were asking for, what appeared to me to be extremely good work. Maybe not "art knives" per se, but high craftsmanship in their own right.

Moreover, in many instances, you can get way more bang for the buck today than you could even just 10 or 15 years ago, due to rapid advancements in equipment, materials, and know-how. Since people keep bringing up Nathan Carothers, I'll mention him here as well. He makes a truly high performance knife made out of the best materials using reliable, repeatable and scientific heat treatment regimens, and featuring extremely accurate (and effective) blade geometries. According to his website, his field knife starts at just $235. Compare this to just ten years ago, when a lot of people thought the pinnacle of achievement in a performance blade was a $400 Busse or a cord-wrapped Strider in S30V.

 

[martinr]

Wulf, I may be out of touch with what's going on but I look at websites like Knifelegends, Knife Treasures, Knife Purveyor, Exquisite Knives etc. and there are a ton of art knives for high prices that aren't selling and have been for sale for a long time. One of those dealers marks the knives sold when they haven't sold, lots of them are consignment and when they don't sell and are returned to the owner they're marked sold. I know from experience. Then there are all the old guys that have been buying art knives for years, there isn't much of a market for those kind of knives, that's why the websites are full of unsold knives. A good example is Steve Hoel AKI member. His knives were around $2500 now they are half that and still languish. My response to Coop about my 15K pair and how do I expect a dealer to make money selling them for 15K, I don't. But when does the price increase end? I sell for 15, the dealer sells for 18, the buyer wants to sell later for more and then the next guy wants even more? That won't work for long if at all. Also, since when does preowned cost more than new. That doesn't make sense unless the item is maybe rare or one of a kind and even then there aren't a lot of potential buyers. The dealers and guys that are trying to prop up the value of their collections will tell you otherwise but their opinions aren't exactly altruistic.

 

[Wulf]

Martin, sounds to me like you are VERY in touch with what's going on in the art knife market. Much more so than me. I was just pointing out that, in my opinion, there are still some great pockets of value, if not in one segment of the market, then perhaps in another.

 

[Kohai999]

.......And when a guy like STeven, whose knowledge of custom knives is deeper than 99% of the collectors out there, is selling knives at a loss while some young whippersnapper who's never even heard of Bob Loveless is making thousands of dollars flipping cookie-cutter knives on instagram, well it just seems wrong, doesn't it?

But like I said, the market will do what it will do. There will be trend-following momentum traders, there will be contrarian reversal traders, there will be relative value traders, and there will be arbitrageurs. Some will do well, some will not, most will have a few ups and downs along the way. It is what it is... But we're all fortunate in that we are in this together because of our deep appreciation and enjoyment of fine, well-made knives. And even if the value of our investment goes down, we can still enjoy it.

Besides, you can't use a share of stock to peel an apple or stab an intruder

Hi Derrick,

I sell SOME knives at a loss....they cannot all be winners, especially when we buy on emotion over intellect.

Overall, I do much better buying/selling knives than playing blackjack in Las Vegas, where I am probably down $7,000.00+/-.

I'm UP in knife sales.....but it isn't easy....it's almost like work, lol!

Martin, for every $59,000 Kious there are a hundreds of bargains to be found at knife shows, other dealer websites, or right here in the for sale forum. A maker does not need to be famous or deceased to be good, and there can be great joy in "discovering" a new or otherwise unknown maker of high quality knives. I attended a show in Belgium last year and was almost embarrassed by some of the prices a few of the makers there were asking for, what appeared to me to be extremely good work. Maybe not "art knives" per se, but high craftsmanship in their own right.

Moreover, in many instances, you can get way more bang for the buck today than you could even just 10 or 15 years ago, due to rapid advancements in equipment, materials, and know-how. Since people keep bringing up Nathan Carothers, I'll mention him here as well. He makes a truly high performance knife made out of the best materials using reliable, repeatable and scientific heat treatment regimens, and featuring extremely accurate (and effective) blade geometries. According to his website, his field knife starts at just $235. Compare this to just ten years ago, when a lot of people thought the pinnacle of achievement in a performance blade was a $400 Busse or a cord-wrapped Strider in S30V.

I agree with everything you wrote there, Derrick. There are still fantastic deals to be had, and that is what I look for at a show. Sometimes, I'll go to an unrelated show and pick up a gem. Earlier this year I got a USMC swagger stick in lacquered rosewood with silver fittings and a 12" twist out poignard blade at a militaria show for $300.00.

It probably cost close to that price in the '60's....you just gotta know what to look for!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Wulf]

I'm UP in knife sales.....but it isn't easy.

If it was easy, everybody would be doing it

 

[betzner]

Martin, for every $59,000 Kious there are a hundreds of bargains to be found at knife shows, other dealer websites, or right here in the for sale forum. A maker does not need to be famous or deceased to be good, and there can be great joy in "discovering" a new or otherwise unknown maker of high quality knives. I attended a show in Belgium last year and was almost embarrassed by some of the prices a few of the makers there were asking for, what appeared to me to be extremely good work. Maybe not "art knives" per se, but high craftsmanship in their own right.

Moreover, in many instances, you can get way more bang for the buck today than you could even just 10 or 15 years ago, due to rapid advancements in equipment, materials, and know-how. Since people keep bringing up Nathan Carothers, I'll mention him here as well. He makes a truly high performance knife made out of the best materials using reliable, repeatable and scientific heat treatment regimens, and featuring extremely accurate (and effective) blade geometries. According to his website, his field knife starts at just $235. Compare this to just ten years ago, when a lot of people thought the pinnacle of achievement in a performance blade was a $400 Busse or a cord-wrapped Strider in S30V.

For all those following this excellent thread, just thought I would highlight the fact that the Nathan Carothers Light Chopper was the knife that just won the Jerry Fisk show cutting contest, in the very capable hands of surgeon Bill Flynn.

 

[Lycosa]

Gratzee, Nathan and Bill.
rolf

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

What about value for money? My opinion is that prices are ridiculous and I see it like this, knives are toys and when you compare prices of toys like knives with other items that are bought with discretionary income knives seem like a bad deal. For example, there is a knife, a Joe Kious knife engraved by Barry Lee Hands on the Knife Treasures website for over $59,000! Now, it's a nice looking knife, Kious was a good maker and Barry is a good engraver but think about this, would you rather have that knife or a brand new 2017 BMW 428i convertible? If that's an extreme example what about the $4000 tactical that's a couple of titanium slabs, a pivot and a bead blasted blade. $4000 can buy........fill in the blank, I'm sure you won't have any trouble coming up with something that seems like it's "worth" more.

Wulf, I may be out of touch with what's going on but I look at websites like Knifelegends, Knife Treasures, Knife Purveyor, Exquisite Knives etc. and there are a ton of art knives for high prices that aren't selling and have been for sale for a long time. One of those dealers marks the knives sold when they haven't sold, lots of them are consignment and when they don't sell and are returned to the owner they're marked sold. I know from experience. Then there are all the old guys that have been buying art knives for years, there isn't much of a market for those kind of knives, that's why the websites are full of unsold knives. A good example is Steve Hoel AKI member. His knives were around $2500 now they are half that and still languish. My response to Coop about my 15K pair and how do I expect a dealer to make money selling them for 15K, I don't. But when does the price increase end? I sell for 15, the dealer sells for 18, the buyer wants to sell later for more and then the next guy wants even more? That won't work for long if at all. Also, since when does preowned cost more than new. That doesn't make sense unless the item is maybe rare or one of a kind and even then there aren't a lot of potential buyers. The dealers and guys that are trying to prop up the value of their collections will tell you otherwise but their opinions aren't exactly altruistic.

Another pair of excellent posts. You are bold my friend to provide concrete examples, and I appreciate that - even if some folks might get their feelings hurt.

You're right, objectively. Many knife prices are crazy. They make no sense. But if these knives are worth that much money to someone . . . as they say, the heart wants what the heart wants. Of course the question for many of these knives is if they really are worth that much money to ANYone. That $59K knife is one I have discussed with a friend as a good example of crazy. Not that "$59K for a knife is crazy" all by itself (although I am thinking many/most here probably think that) , , , premium Michael Walker folders go for that and more . . . and I am sick enough with the knife disease that there are a few knives for which I would part with that much money for if I was in a position to do so. We are talking once-on-a-lifetime knives of tremendous artistic quality and historical significance. But for that particular knife . . . pretty as it may be . . . it isn't Walker or Schmidt or Warenski or . . . it boggles my mind. Then again, anyone who could and would spend that much on that knife probably wouldn't be caught dead in a mere BMW 428i convertible with its piddly 240 HP 4-banger engine. Gotta have at least a Mercedes-Benz AMG SL65. Minimum.

Truthfully, there are not many buyers for knives at these prices. But truth be told, it is sometimes hard for us mere mortals to conceive of the kind of wealth that is out there. There are literally hundreds of people in this world who could buy and then give away every single knife listed on every one of the websites you mentioned without even changing the number three decimal places down in their net worth. If I was worth $10 billion would I buy all of those knives? Ya never know!

 

[Ellis]

OK, time for me to chime in and I will try to speak as Collector as well as Dealer.
Many salient points here and I tell anybody that will listen (especially those starting out) to buy what you like. In any Art form you do not know what the secondary will bring...ever!

Now, there are some that will tell you the sky is falling (not here, I have no complaints with 2015 or 16 purchases or sales), there are some that will tell you that they have never done more business (that is fantastic and you should track exactly what you are doing right!)

I love Cars, Watches, Tiffany Lamps, all sorts of good things, I buy them because I like them, very few go up in value (hopefully with the finite number of Tiffany Lamps, they will be an exception).

I have been in the Game a long time, I have seen them come and go..you old timers remember Barrett Smythe? I cut my teeth on a lot of their pieces dispensed on the secondary and tertiary markets. I buy and Sell high end Art pieces as well as Tactical or so called knives. Have I overspent before? that is the collector in me.

I was taught by a very wise Man that you should not always look for a profit on every single sale, average in and buy smart as well as picking not only what you like but with an eye towards eventual sales as well.

If you are concerned about the state of the Custom Knife World, do something about it, bring new blood to the shows, educate yourself and others.
Try to bring our Art into the mainstream of the Art World.

I am not sure about comparing a Michael Walker Zipper with an AMG, I cannot predict the future.
I only can tell you all from my experience that I am meeting more, educated buyers and prospective buyers all of the time and still enjoy the Hell out meeting each and every one of you
Dave

 

[JParanee]

OK, time for me to chime in and I will try to speak as Collector as well as Dealer.
Many salient points here and I tell anybody that will listen (especially those starting out) to buy what you like. In any Art form you do not know what the secondary will bring...ever!

Now, there are some that will tell you the sky is falling (not here, I have no complaints with 2015 or 16 purchases or sales), there are some that will tell you that they have never done more business (that is fantastic and you should track exactly what you are doing right!)

I love Cars, Watches, Tiffany Lamps, all sorts of good things, I buy them because I like them, very few go up in value (hopefully with the finite number of Tiffany Lamps, they will be an exception).

I have been in the Game a long time, I have seen them come and go..you old timers remember Barrett Smythe? I cut my teeth on a lot of their pieces dispensed on the secondary and tertiary markets. I buy and Sell high end Art pieces as well as Tactical or so called knives. Have I overspent before? that is the collector in me.

I was taught by a very wise Man that you should not always look for a profit on every single sale, average in and buy smart as well as picking not only what you like but with an eye towards eventual sales as well.

If you are concerned about the state of the Custom Knife World, do something about it, bring new blood to the shows, educate yourself and others.
Try to bring our Art into the mainstream of the Art World.

I am not sure about comparing a Michael Walker Zipper with an AMG, I cannot predict the future.
I only can tell you all from my experience that I am meeting more, educated buyers and prospective buyers all of the time and still enjoy the Hell out meeting each and every one of you
Dave

Best post of the thread

Knew I liked you for a reason

If any of you want you learn how to buy knives and sell knives and want to see what is hot and what is not follow Dave and DeLac around at a show

It's an honor to watch them