Steel quality and snobbism.

Great thread. High Carbon 1095, AUS 6 or Aus 8, Sandvik 12C27, or Bucks 420HC etc, for example serves most of our purposes quite well. I prefer 1095 or Sandvik for my own camping, hunting and everyday use. If you want to collect more premium steels that is fine, but lesser steels work very well for most of what we use our knives for. As far as self-defense, I do not think the steel in our knives used for slashing or stabbing matters much. I know the victim will not stop to ask what the steel of our knives is. I say this as one that has actually used a knife in a couple of self-defense situations. One led me to a two day trial of which I was aquitted. My point is many of the more common steels or medium grade steels serve us very well in our activities and the so-called premium steels are simply uneccesary.
 
These threads always rattle my cage. I understand a hobbyists interest in higher end steels and manufacturers using and advertising same. I really do. Where I have the problem is the endless arguing over the subtle differences in performance in everyday applications. I get it, I really do. One of my other passions in life besides knives is watches. (Mostly G-Shocks). Realistically I don't even need a watch in this day and age with computers cellphones and clocks everywhere and I certainly don't need a watch that is solar powered, tells time in 48 cities, countdown timer, 5 alarms with snooze etc. etc. But I love the things anyway.
As for blade steel I have, after may years of knife buying and using settled on a few favorites like VG-10, AUS-8 and 1095.
Snobbery of any kind about material things really pisses me off. Whether watches, knives or cars for that matter. Back to my Inuit friend, one of the things that impressed me about these folks was an almost total lack of interest in comparing STUFF Homes, snowmobiles, dogs, knives, guns were nothing more than a means to an end. I'm a personal gear junkie and wouldn't like to live like that but it was refreshing.

Post related content.;)
spydershock.jpg
 
I find that in knives, like in any quality good, you reach a point of diminishing returns. I like stuff that's in the "sweet spot" in terms of bang-for-the-buck value. You have to go past that point to get the best, but you have to pay much more for much smaller increases in performance. I'd rather spend those extra dolars on another piece of gear to maximize what I'm getting for my money. But folks are free to buy what they like--as long as you're happy that's all that matters! :thumbup:
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
I find that in knives, like in any quality good, you reach a point of diminishing returns. I like stuff that's in the "sweet spot" in terms of bang-for-the-buck value. You have to go past that point to get the best, but you have to pay much more for much smaller increases in performance. I'd rather spend those extra dolars on another piece of gear to maximize what I'm getting for my money. But folks are free to buy what they like--as long as you're happy that's all that matters! :thumbup:
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BINGO!!!

At this point in time "Super Steels" do not out perform less expensive steels enough to justify the substantially higher cost IMHO. $20-25 .172x2x48 of 1095 vs. over $100.00 for CPMS35VN of similar size. That is just raw material, doesn't count for the extra cost of machining said "Super Steel", "special HT" etc. It still won't out perform the """"""lesser"""""" 1095 so dramatically, as to justify the cost.

In the world of custom knives, I would never consider paying hundreds(or thousands) of dollars for any custom knife because of the blade steel. I am buying the whole design, blade shape, handle shape, angles, colors, ergos etc. Whether the blade is the latest super steel is pretty low on my list. Whether its Busse or Hinderer, if the overall design doesn't suit me, I am not going to pay extra cash for it, no matter the steel choice. When it comes to "Super Steels" in production knives, a lot of the time you might as well buy a custom knife.

I agree as long as you are happy with your knife and the steel it incorporates, all is well. Just don't trash on someone else for being happy with their """""inferior"""" blade. And don't think for a minute it is because we must not know how great these "Super Steels" are. A lot of us know the difference/s and don't care, or do not see enough evidence of their "superiority", or just don't feel like paying the extra $100.00 for the "latest and greatest":rolleyes:, when we can buy a knife that does all the neccessary tasks for a 1/3 of the price. I cannot speak from a purely collector's standpoint as I use every knife I own, in which case, in terms of collecting steel choice is just a cool factor and selling point by defintion. Not saying that is bad or wrong, just don't call me or anyone else an idiot because we choose """""inferior""""" products.
 
yobbos1 said:
These threads always rattle my cage. I understand a hobbyists interest in higher end steels and manufacturers using and advertising same. I really do. Where I have the problem is the endless arguing over the subtle differences in performance in everyday applications. I get it, I really do. One of my other passions in life besides knives is watches. (Mostly G-Shocks). Realistically I don't even need a watch in this day and age with computers cellphones and clocks everywhere and I certainly don't need a watch that is solar powered, tells time in 48 cities, countdown timer, 5 alarms with snooze etc. etc. But I love the things anyway.
As for blade steel I have, after may years of knife buying and using settled on a few favorites like VG-10, AUS-8 and 1095.
Snobbery of any kind about material things really pisses me off. Whether watches, knives or cars for that matter. Back to my Inuit friend, one of the things that impressed me about these folks was an almost total lack of interest in comparing STUFF Homes, snowmobiles, dogs, knives, guns were nothing more than a means to an end. I'm a personal gear junkie and wouldn't like to live like that but it was refreshing.

Post related content.;)
Click to expand...
LOL...I always find it amusing when someone is bragging about their fancy car or big screen tv. Maybe I'm not a good consumer but I don't care about any of that crap. A car should be reliable, safe, and get you where you're going. A tv should be big enough to see what's going on. Anything more then that is superfluous. In much the same way as your inuit friend, my possessions provide a means to an end. I don't own status symbols and laugh at those who do.

Dave Behrens said:
At this point in time "Super Steels" do not out perform less expensive steels enough to justify the substantially higher cost IMHO.
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Shh...we want people to buy the latest super steels so that companies like crucible keep developing them. That way in 20 years when there is a serious performance difference we'll pony up the cash for it.:D Until then I'm content with 1095 and whatever mystery steel Victorinox uses.
 
Dave Behrens said:
BINGO!!!

At this point in time "Super Steels" do not out perform less expensive steels enough to justify the substantially higher cost IMHO. $20-25 .172x2x48 of 1095 vs. over $100.00 for CPMS35VN of similar size. That is just raw material, doesn't count for the extra cost of machining said "Super Steel", "special HT" etc. It still won't out perform the """"""lesser"""""" 1095 so dramatically, as to justify the cost.

In the world of custom knives, I would never consider paying hundreds(or thousands) of dollars for any custom knife because of the blade steel. I am buying the whole design, blade shape, handle shape, angles, colors, ergos etc. Whether the blade is the latest super steel is pretty low on my list. Whether its Busse or Hinderer, if the overall design doesn't suit me, I am not going to pay extra cash for it, no matter the steel choice. When it comes to "Super Steels" in production knives, a lot of the time you might as well buy a custom knife.

I agree as long as you are happy with your knife and the steel it incorporates, all is well. Just don't trash on someone else for being happy with their """""inferior"""" blade. And don't think for a minute it is because we must not know how great these "Super Steels" are. A lot of us know the difference/s and don't care, or do not see enough evidence of their "superiority", or just don't feel like paying the extra $100.00 for the "latest and greatest":rolleyes:, when we can buy a knife that does all the neccessary tasks for a 1/3 of the price. I cannot speak from a purely collector's standpoint as I use every knife I own, in which case, in terms of collecting steel choice is just a cool factor and selling point by defintion. Not saying that is bad or wrong, just don't call me or anyone else an idiot because we choose """""inferior""""" products.
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It depends on the steel we are talking about for me, ones that are really way over the performance of the standard super steels and make the standard steels all look like AUS-4 or pot metal by comparison. ;)

But then in the steels I am talking about they are only available from Custom makers and very few of them really know how to HT them and have the equipment to do it properly or will even work with them at all.

So yeah they are more than worth it compared to the others, but not everyone would want to deal with them.
 
Dave Behrens said:
At this point in time "Super Steels" do not out perform less expensive steels enough to justify the substantially higher cost IMHO. $20-25 .172x2x48 of 1095 vs. over $100.00 for CPMS35VN of similar size. That is just raw material, doesn't count for the extra cost of machining said "Super Steel", "special HT" etc. It still won't out perform the """"""lesser"""""" 1095 so dramatically, as to justify the cost.
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It really depends what one considers "dramatic". As things are today, typical RC for 1095 is around 60HRC at best. Compare that with CPM 10V at 64-65HRC, for cardboard and rope cutting, which is quite realistic choice of materials. Performance increase for both, cutting and edge holding will be few hundred %. Obviously, for large chopping knife other alloy will do better. I think that is enough to justify extra cost. Otherwise, if we are talking about the alloy which will outperform all other alloys for all types of tasks several times, I doubt that's come anytime soon.
For task optimized knives, alloys that can outperform old ones significantly already exist...

yobbos1 said:
Where I have the problem is the endless arguing over the subtle differences in performance in everyday applications.
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What is subtle? Given a correct steel, for specific application, one can perform better compared to other 5-10 times better. Even 100% increase in performance is not "subtle", at least the way I see it.

Dave Behrens said:
Not saying that is bad or wrong, just don't call me or anyone else an idiot because we choose """""inferior""""" products.
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Never intended? As I saw this thread it was the other way, if one wanted better steel he automatically became a snob at best, and not so bright, etc in other cases ;)
 
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Gator97 said:
It really depends what one considers "dramatic". As things are today, typical RC for 1095 is around 60HRC at best. Compare that with CPM 10V at 64-65HRC, for cardboard and rope cutting, which is quite realistic choice of materials. Performance increase for both, cutting and edge holding will be few hundred %. Obviously, for large chopping knife other alloy will do better. I think that is enough to justify extra cost. Otherwise, if we are talking about the alloy which will outperform all other alloys for all types of tasks several times, I doubt that's come anytime soon.
For task optimized knives, alloys that can outperform old ones significantly already exist...
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At Least a few hundred percent on the very low side and that's if CPM 10V is really getting dull before the cutting even begins. ;)
 
Gator97 said:
I'm trying to be conservative considering the way this thread is going...
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It's just like getting together with my family for the Holiday. As much as some might try, you just know it ain't gonna end well.

Prof.
 
Gator97 said:
It really depends what one considers "dramatic". As things are today, typical RC for 1095 is around 60HRC at best. Compare that with CPM 10V at 64-65HRC, for cardboard and rope cutting, which is quite realistic choice of materials. Performance increase for both, cutting and edge holding will be few hundred %. Obviously, for large chopping knife other alloy will do better. I think that is enough to justify extra cost. Otherwise, if we are talking about the alloy which will outperform all other alloys for all types of tasks several times, I doubt that's come anytime soon.
For task optimized knives, alloys that can outperform old ones significantly already exist...


What is subtle? Given a correct steel, for specific application, one can perform better compared to other 5-10 times better. Even 100% increase in performance is not "subtle", at least the way I see it.


Never intended? As I saw this thread it was the other way, if one wanted better steel he automatically became a snob at best, and not so bright, etc in other cases ;)
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I agree there are wrongs on both sides. One is not automatically a snob for choosing a "higher end" steel, it is when they look down upon others for not choosing the same steel. Just as one is not a fool for choosing a knife less than $50.00, but they become the fool once they call you stupid for spending $100.00+ on a knife. Both have happened on this thread.

I don't believe all "Super Steels" are bad steels. I have had bad expierences with some; S30V, S35VN, and VG10 in the edge holding/sharpening dept. The aforementioned CPM 10V and CPM 3V are two that I AM intersted in and have been doing my research. What turns me off is simply a cost issue, I have a hard time justifying the higher costs when there are other steels that will get the job done at a third of the cost. Just as I know a sub-par steel when I see it, such as 420 stainless, AUS 6 and below, and even 440c, all steels I have used a lot and none of them ever held up. But CarbonV, AUS 8(sometimes), 1095, 5160 have all succeeded where I needed the too. A2, D2, 154CM, ATS-34 as well for the slightly more expensive field.

I am still open minded to these newer steels, but thus far I have been let down by the ones I have used. I would like to see less task specific and more versitility though, and lower costs. Until then I will stick with my Carbon and Tool Steels.:D
 
I manage to be a snob no matter what quality the blade steel is.
That's just how amazingly awesome I am.:cool:
 
The issue is that the steels do not perform any better. The knives do not perform any better. The better performance is going to come from the maker and ultimately the user. The knife will just sit wherever it is placed for all eternity if left to its own. Giving someone a sub-MOA rifle when they have never pulled a trigger is doubtfully going to result in sub-MOA results. Give someone a super steel blade when they have no care or interest in knives, and it is probably going to encounter ceramic plates, heavy duty staples, digging of holes, steel surfaces, prying with the tip, bouncing around in the dishwasher, etc. Single digit edge bevels, high wear resistance but almost no corrosion resistance, thin primary grinds, and other things we can appreciate or deal with will only lead to problems for a lot of users. A knife is basically a simple tool, but we complicate their use in "improving" them. How "super" is the 15V in my little fixed blade? It is around twice the wear resistance of S90V, and half the impact toughness, while not be at all stainless. It will cut a lot longer, until I drop it on a concrete shop floor or make it through a zip tie and smack the edge into a piece of angle iron. Then it will need to be resharpened, and it didn't take many times longer than a 440C blade to suffer that instant damage to the edge. The way to improve cutting performance is to thin the blade. The way to increase the life of the edge is to increase wear resistance and hardness. The way to increase the durability of the knife is to do the opposite of both.

The term super steel came about for the increasingly wear resistant steels. But H1 is a super steel when it comes to corrosion resistance. 4140 is a super steel when it comes to impact damage resistance. Other steels are super for creep resistance, high temperature resistance, resistances to things we don't care about. "Super" is a matter of opinion, not fact. Wear resistance is not the only thing to care about in a knife. So many people use dull knives, it doesn't matter how long they keep a sharp edge, they won't try to get their knives sharp to begin with.

One day, I cut roofing shingles with my S125V folder at 62.5 Rc. Another day, I cut them with a Sanrenmu 710 with 8Cr13MoV, hardness unknown. They both got dull by the end of the day, and I didn't sharpen either one until the sun went down. The 5000% price difference didn't show itself on those days. One chipped a little, the other rolled little. I had to put both to the stones.
 
Ankerson said:
Yeah, really conservative..... :D
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As far as I can tell, lots of people simply dismiss claims that any super or whatever steel can stay sharp even 5 times longer than good old whateversteelnamehere. Same for the 5-10 deg. per side edges. Mostly you get either jokes about cutting atoms or tectonic plates, somehow hard to convince the same crowd that thin edges are better for many uses...
So, giving higher numbers which is really the case, especially when it needs to be accompanied with notes about correct geometry and use, will be dismissed even easier..
 
Gator97 said:
As far as I can tell, lots of people simply dismiss claims that any super or whatever steel can stay sharp even 5 times longer than good old whateversteelnamehere. Same for the 5-10 deg. per side edges. Mostly you get either jokes about cutting atoms or tectonic plates, somehow hard to convince the same crowd that thin edges are better for many uses...
So, giving higher numbers which is really the case, especially when it needs to be accompanied with notes about correct geometry and use, will be dismissed even easier..
Click to expand...

I never post numbers for that reason, people wouldn't believe how high those percentages can really be. LOL

I could just hear the crying now..... ROFL
 
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