Steel quality and snobbism.

I can't speak for the others but I see no need for folks to downgrade.
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I'm not advocating for downgrading. I'm just trying people not to discard "lesser" steels, which is way different.

I'm talking about "don't buy that, man. It's AUS-8. Get a blahblahblah instead just because it's D2" things.

I love my Para2, but I fail to see why a Cold Steel AK-47 is "inferior". Isn't the Tri-Ad-Lock better than the Para's? In which way are the Para2 ergos better than the AK's? The AK and the Para2 are equally smoother but the Cold Steel is waved too.

So, really, I do not advocate for downgrading anything but to keep an open mind and consider other alternatives. Yes, even if they are cheaper. Nothing wrong with buying expensive things as long as one realizes they might not be necessarily better just because their cost is higher.
 
Alan Mackey said:
So, from now on, I solemnly swear not to be a steel snob and discard perfectly valid knives just because they are not made from the latest-super-hyper-mega-steel.
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As do I, I love my Victorinox Solo and my 2011 Voyager...

And when the right knife comes along with the latest-super-hyper-mega-steel I'm gonna jump all over that thing like a starving dog on a pile of bacon!
 
The ELMAX steel on my ZT is no harder to sharpen than O1 or 1095 @ Rc60 and I even use waterstones to sharpen it. It has better resistance to deformation and has yet to have a report of chipping all while having the edge retention of ZDP, and with 18% Cr don't expect it to rust anytime soon. Why would you not want that?
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And why wouldn't you want a perfectly fine Kershaw Leek just because it has been made from a "worse" steel? Why not keep an open mind?

Just because you can afford a Ferrari doesn't mean you can drive it as fast as it was designed to do. In fact, you would probably be faster driving a much less expensive Subaru Impreza WRX STi (which is a fine car by itself).

More expensive is not always better.
 
unit said:
Because sharpening is fun too?;)
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Only if I am in the mood to do it. :D

Alan Mackey said:
My point is not that you shouldn't, but you could use AUS-8 and get the job done as well. Sometimes we kind of dismiss excellent steels, like the AUS-8, just because we can afford something better (on the paper at least).

One of my next purchases is going to be a damascus Mnandi, so I'm guilty too of liking expensive things. But I really doubt the Mnandi will get more pocket time than my Spyderco Tenacious or my Boker Hyper. Being cheaper doesn't necessarily mean being inferior in every aspect.
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Sure AUS-8 would make a fine kitchen knife, better than most of we normally see in kitchen knives these days, but then so would 154cm, S30V, VG-10, CPM 154, ELMAX and so on.
 
We all know the lesser steels will do the job. I think you make a lot of assumptions on how people use their knives. People choose what they can afford and what they want. The problem of steel snobbery only come into play when the lesser steels are sneered at or perfectly good designs are passed over because they use AUS-8 or 440A, or even 420HC.

The knife has to be taken as a whole package. It's silly to avoid a good design with a comfortable handle, good feel in pocket, and efficient shape just because the steel is some lesser steel that makes the potential buyer turn up their nose. It becomes even sillier when you realize that geometry and sharpening procedure on a lesser steel can out perform "superior" steels.
 
Alan, I hear ya, and totaly agree.

Because being a knife knut is being obsessive about the hobby, and the hobby tends to turn into an obsession, the overall view tends to get lost. The big picture is no longer visable since the person is too close to see the forest for the trees. And your annalogy of life then and now is right on. OUr grandfathers and great grandfathers really worked at jobs that make most of us look like a bunch of wusses. Heck, the old mountain men used plain old carbon steel thin bladed butcher knives for the most part, as did the later buffalo hunters. No wonder choppers or mirracle steel of the month.

The modern knives are an artificially driven market, trying to bring out the lastest and greatest, and selling sensation. Kind of like news media and video games. Things just keep getting more and more out there, no matter if we need it or not.

I used to have a bunch of high end custom knives when I used to collect in my younger day. I was a knife snob. I was solid in my belief that I was using a way better knife than anyone else. Then I got over it. Ended up selling off all my Randall's, Ralph Bone, Don Hastings, and all my high end factory stuff. I found that in real world day to day use, there was really not that much difference. Opening mail, a UPS box, Cutting some twine for the tomato plants, just does not need an Excalliber of a blade. I just moved on in my main interests in life. I'd rather spend more time doing real things, like fishing, hiking, canoeing, than obsessing over which new wonder knife I should buy. It gets a little silly after a while. My dear departed daddy used to tell us, "all things in moderation."

For me, a retired old fart doing all the things I'd day dreamed of while stuck in that machine shop, plain old 1095, 420HC, is fine for opening up that fish belly for cleaning.

Carl.
 
Yep, I think for the most part we get caught up in advertising hype, and a subconcious competing with the Jones'. In fact, the closest I get to doing anything "manly" with my knives is gutting a fish, or a deer, and my SAK or Buck 420HC does a fine job at that. Otherwise it's opening mail, or a package, cutting some string, etc. Just because I have enough money to blow (and live in a society that is blessed to have enough leisure time to focus on such trivial things), doesn't mean that I should...unfortunately, I do, though.
 
I agree with Esav. I get a lot of enjoyment out of purchsing new steels. Your right that there way more durable than anything I may ever throw at them, but It comes down to personal justification. I can justify buying new high end steels. I have a Para2 in M390 and Para2 in CTS 20 on the way and I'm stoked to be getting them. It all comes down to what rocks your boat. The new steels definitely rock mine!
Esav Benyamin said:
Cars and knives are a bad analogy -- unless you can afford a hundred or more cars, like many of us have bought that many knives.

This is Bladeforums, we are knife hobbyists we are knife knuts.. For most of us, it is not only the utility. It is not survival. It's fun. We enjoy the steels, the designs, the sharpening, the experimenting.

And we do have simpler, cheaper, very effective knives for ordinary use. The only "knife" I used today was my Victorinox Farmer. I popped the top off a soda bottle with the bottle opener. No reason to pick one over the other.
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Alan Mackey said:
And why wouldn't you want a perfectly fine Kershaw Leek just because it has been made from a "worse" steel? Why not keep an open mind?

Just because you can afford a Ferrari doesn't mean you can drive it as fast as it was designed to do. In fact, you would probably be faster driving a much less expensive Subaru Impreza WRX STi (which is a fine car by itself).

More expensive is not always better.
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Because I don't like the leek and who said I didn't like the steel? and now price, when did money get involved? What does that have to do with steel performance?

Sorry, cars are just a bad comparison but if you want.... Why put a 4 cylinder in a Corvette? (We could go at this for hours)


I do have a open mind but I also have experience with lots of steels. I've also accepted change and steel advancements for what they are.
 
I think many of us started with Case and Victorinox slip joints, graduated to plastic-handled one-hand openers, got hooked on titanium framelocks with super steel and eventually made our way back to see the value of slip joints and Swiss Army Knives. (At lead in part.)
 
Because I don't like the leek and who said I didn't like the steel? and now price, when did money get involved? What does that have to do with steel performance?
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How many times have we read something like this on the forum?

"Hello, my name is Blah and I would like to purchase a CRKT M-16".

"Don't. Get a Sebenza instead. Much better steel and blah-blah-blah...".

"No! Just get A Hinderer or a Strider because blah-blah-blah...".

C'mon... it's ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with a $40 knife. It gets the job done. You may WANT a Busse but you don't NEED anything more than an Esee or a Becker.

Of course, you should buy whatever rocks your boat, but it's not a rational decision. That's all I'm saying.

I'm a knifenut too. And I like expensive knives and gadgets. But I don't fool myself anymore thinking that a Sebbie is going to do a better job than a, for instance, a Ritter Grip. And I can assure you I DO lust after the Sebbie.

Like someone on this thread already said, you can buy a Patek Philippe (tens of thousands of dollars worth the cheapest one) but, please, do not think, even for a moment, that it's going to be as accurate like a $20 Casio.

And, I repeat for the thousandth time that I am NOT attacking anyone's choices. I'm just trying to be rational about this. And a $40 knife can be just as good as a $400 one.
 
Your the one saying it not me. This started about steels now its about brand and price, both of which have nothing to do with steel performance.
 
The funny thing about steel snobbism is that it doesn't happen at the high end of knife prices. It's really a mid-range thing, where knives from $50 to $500 (yeah, that's a pretty wide range) are scrutinized for the steels used; despite the fact that nearly every knife in use on the planet is low alloy and poorly heat treated, yet still gets the job done without failure. Steel is a secondary concern on nearly all user grade knives. At the other end of the spectrum, where thousands, even tens of thousands, are spent on a single knife, the alloy again is unimportant. The aesthetics, the cache of the maker, the overall balance in design and the quality of workmanship, completely trumps how much vanadium or carbon is in the melt. Right there in the middle of the enthusiast pack is where things get switched and the alloy can take the lead over looks, comfort, and utility for some.

Heck, it does for me, I buy plenty of knives because of the steel, even when I hate the handle material, the lock, the looks, the blade shape, etc. But I don't do a lot with my knives, and I have plenty in more basic alloys that feel better than some of my super steel wonders.
 
Your the one saying it not me. This started about steels now its about brand and price, both of which have nothing to do with steel performance.
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Higher steels usually mean steeper price tags. It's not me who is trying to change the subject. ;)
 
Alan, congratulations! You have come to your senses, yet, let me assure you, knife collecting is plain and simply, an addiction. The journey with cutting tools and the delight associated with acquiring the pieces, sharpening them, using them and then selling them is what pushes us. This 'need' for tinkering and searching is the unquenchable thirst that fuels the poor addict to rise up early and attend gun or knife shows even when the cash on hand is frightfully low. We have bought knives that we never needed, multiples in fact, sensing that one day we might actually use these neat looking tools. And no, I am not getting rid of my Don Hastings bowie. Yes, the story of the shovel being converted into a functional blade is a GREAT tale and should be read aloud by all of us who suffer from the knife-nut symptoms. Knife collecting is terrific amusement!

When Busse first came out with their BM I decided that i had to have the 'ultimate' knife. Imagine the horror when on a trip to southern Mexico, I was totally upstaged in a chopping competition by a local with a cheap machete. Years later, I still look for Busse knives knowing all along that they are not the best choice for chopping. What they are is a representation of the concept of the best survival tool extant, and, I suppose they would be nearly bullet proof unless user error just got the best of the day or Noss plied his inane trade.

I think you'll be saving yourself a lot of money with your newly found knowledge and ability to split fact from fiction. The lore of the outdoorsman calls to all of us, more stridently from the courts of the manufacturing companies that compete zealousy for your hard earned greenery.
 
It all depends on where you place your attention. If you are attending to the task, the implement is almost immaterial and need only be sufficient to complete the task at hand. If you are focused on the implement, then details such as materials and quality become more important.
 
My favorite two blades, my 12" Culberson Chopper and my Winkler RnD Hawk are both 5160. With the proper HT, that steel is awesome for edge retention and the impact those tools will see.
If I were in the military, I don't think I would need anything better.

If I had more money, I might get some newer steels, but I don't need them. My limited experience with CPM S35VN has been pretty good. I have a few Bark Rivers that were their "mules". It's more difficult to sharpen, but holds an edge for a long time. I can cut through chicken bones without worry of chips and rolls. Then again, I've done the same with 1080, 01, and others. It more depends on the edge and the HT than the steel.

I like that new steels keep coming out, and that others guys are buying and trying, reporting back to this forum. In a few years, I'll be able to stand on their shoulders and make better decisions for what I want and need. Thanks to steel snobbery, I'll be patient and reap the rewards after the dust settles.

I wish more knife makers went back to bronze:D It was good enough for the Egyptians!
 
I agree with much that has already been said on this thread: steel grade is only one of many facets to knife use/owning/collecting. I've never had a problem using 'pedestrian' steels, especially for EDC purposes, but I must admit that I am a casual user. My knives rarely see 'hard-use' to be perfectly honest--I don't cut cardboard all day everyday, I don't need to stab through kevlar or car doors, nor do I rely on my pocket knife to shave in the morning. Super-steels are mostly wasted on a fella like me (I find no real advantage using S30V over 440A in my mundane everyday cutting chores.) Your mileage may vary.

The Mastercraft wrenches I have at home will do the same job as a professional contractor's Snap-On tools, but the contractor is certainly in a better seat to note the difference, imo.
 
I'm fine with using aus8 and 8cr13mov blades. It's just that the knives that appeal to me most in overall design happen to have a higher grade blade steel. For example, I don't care for the Spyderco Resilience. If it were offered with an m390 blade i still wouldn't like it. I prefer the lighter and more ergonomic Military. If the Military was offered with an 8cr13mov blade priced similar to the Resilience I would buy one of those over a higher priced super steel sprint run.
 
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