Steel quality and snobbism.

[gooeytek]

Part of it is about having the latest and greatest. True potential might not be realized, but I'm happy to know that it's there. Knives are great in this regard because it's good enough hobby for the collector where the newest technology and materials can be reasonably showcased and not used.

One of my friends in Austin, TX has a very extensive knife collection with 99% of them being safe queens. He has a lot customs displayed in their own little plexiglass boxes in his "war room" where guns are on the walls too. I commented on an XM-24 w/ CTS-XHP and several scales positioned around it, in its little box. He said that it's one of the toughest, smoothest, sharpest knives in his collection and that it's built like a tank. I asked if I could take it out and handle it, and he said that he hasn't taken it out since he put it under glass, and he hasn't cut anything with it because the blade might get marred. Such a shame.

 

[Bumppo]

My favorite steel was "Carbon V". For me, it sharpened well, held the edge well and it just performed as it should. Right after I made that choice, it seemed to have gone out of production. Someone mentioned it might have been a "Camillous" steel and it died with the company.

I like the INFI, SR 101, and SR 77 steels, but they are not as easy for me to work with. My snobbism would be I would grab just about any knife that had "Carbon V" stamped on it.

 

[Doug S]

It all depends on where you place your attention. If you are attending to the task, the implement is almost immaterial and need only be sufficient to complete the task at hand. If you are focused on the implement, then details such as materials and quality become more important.

Now that is a good point. Hadn't thought about it, but I should wouldn't argue with the truth of this statement.

 

[NightMare Silverado]

I could get by forever with my leatherman wave or CS recon without ever buying another knife but that would be BORING. I bought a Kershaw Rake because I thought the multi steel blade was really cool. I just ordered a ZT 0560 because it's cool lol.

 

[Noddy]

I like tinkering about with this or that steel - seeing how it is in the world - generally

Both sides of the steel snob argument are rubbish

 

[Gator97]

What do, any of you all (or me, for that matter), use your knives for? Maybe cutting some cardboard, strip a few wires and, once in a while, going outdoors and pretend you are in a survival situation. That's all.

I haven't been outdoors for a decade or so Unless we count chopping some branches in my backyard. Still, I carry 2 folders and a multitool on me.

Do we **REALLY** need a super-mega-fancy-brand-new-steel for just that? I don't think so. In fact, even the cheapest knives with the worst steel ever would be more than enough for 99.9% of the tasks at hand.

I am a software engineer for the record, and there's a awful lot of people out there who are convinced that I have no need for the knife(knives) at all, and I shouldn't be allowed to cary them either. It's just one step further from "no need for better steels"

Let's reflect for a brief moment... Not so long ago, maybe just a century ago or so, a man couldn't survive without his knife. And I'm talking about **REAL** survival, life-or-death scenarios. Prepping food, building shelter, making campfires, dressing animals, making cordage, carving wood, clean fish and self defense. On a daily basis!!!

I doubt that, there were cities century(and more) ago, and it was not unsurvivable w/o knife, save for the kitchen knives.

And I guess it would be a safe bet to say they made it remarkably well with their not-so-fancy knives. Otherwise, neither of us would be here today, would we?

And let's rewind to a bronze age, and the same applies to bronze. And then we can go some more back to stone age, and the same applies, humans did claw their way through thousands of years using bone and stone tools. From your point of view, those tools also did remarkably well But each time next generation of tools was better.

So if the not-so-good-steels did suffice for our ancestors, why on Earth wouldn't an AUS-8 knife be enough to cut some cardboard..

Or bronze, or stone, or obsidian or bone... Each will do for a strip of cardboard. In fact, most of the people I know don't even cut cardboard, just throw it away.

Even the cheapest Kershaw or Boker models are waaaaaay better than our ancestors' knives. And we won't even remotely abuse them the same way they did with theirs.

By the same token, bronze tools were waaaaaay better than the stone tools of their ancestors, that'd be a good reason to stop innovating right there.

So, from now on, I solemnly swear not to be a steel snob and discard perfectly valid knives just because they are not made from the latest-super-hyper-mega-steel.

If you have enough skills and properly made and heat treated knife, then you can clearly benefit from latest super duper steels. A knife with 5 per side edge cuts several times more efficiently than the knife with 20 deg per side, it's just not all the steels can sustain that kind of edge, others can do for different materials, better or worse...
Doesn't really matter how much I use a knife, if steel A performs better than steel B, that's enough. If a knife with one steel can do the same job with the edge twice as thin compared to knife B in another steel, that's all.

Don't take it personally, I have no clue how good or bad you are with sharpening, but generally, there's quite a few people putting 20 per side angle on all knives, consistently and then going about steel snobbism. The way I see it, it's the same as someone arguing that cars doesn't need anything past 2nd gear(or shouldn't go faster than 20 mph), because he can get form point A to point B in 2nd gear just fine.

 

[hardheart]

there's quite a few people putting 20 per side angle on all knives, consistently and then going about steel snobbism. The way I see it, it's the same as someone arguing that cars doesn't need anything past 2nd gear(or shouldn't go faster than 20 mph), because he can get form point A to point B in 2nd gear just fine.

but there's the other side a s well, those who buy the highest carbide volume and hardest steels on the market, then sharpen to that same 40 degree inclusive angle, or don't bother to use them at all. And there are people with 600 hp cars who don't get out of 2nd, or 4wd SUVs that don't leave the pavement. I can see how it would get tiresome to read high opinions from people who never had a need for the attributes and don't actually know what they are.

 

[Dave Behrens]

Over the years and all I have learned about knives and steels, I came to the conclusion that Heat Treatment matters more than the type of steel. A bad HT can turn a "Super Steel" into a scrap pile steel.

I always weigh cost and performance ratio. Example: 1095 vs S30V, assuming both HT's are spot on. Both can be great blade steels. S30V is supposed to have more toughness, wear resistance, and corrosion resistance, but can be more difficult to sharpen. 1095, takes and holds a great edge, wear resistant, decent impact resistance, easier to sharpen, less corrosion resitance.

The question I always ask when considering blade steel is, does the difference in performance justify the difference in cost? In the case of 1095 and S30V the answer is almost alway no for me, as S30V is substantially more expensive than 1095, but does not neccessarily outperform it equally in reference to said cost. In the case of O1 and A2(A2 being more expensive), then the answer is yes for the A2 most of the time. In the case of tools steels, I believe the difference in cost is, more often than not, justifiable.

This next statement is probably going to ruffle a lot a feathers. IMO "Super Steels" are used more often as a selling point, or "Cool Factor", rather than from a point of purpose and function. My personal philosophy is I want make the best possible knife I can for the most reasonable cost, I never sacrifice quality or function for the sake of "cool" or asthetics, I make tools not art, and a more expensive material is never an indicator of superior function.

 

[Noctis3880]

The thing isn't really about the steel so much as the price tag. Thing is, I can find agreement with you on some level. I just don't go through enough cardboard/fiberglass/carpet to need S125V blade steel. But for me, I find myself willing to abuse my Mora more than say, a $400 custom. Not quite prying a tree open, but more leaving it in the sheath after trimming and processing a pallet of vegetables without wiping it down.

 

[shunsui]

Having grown up with slipjoints and cheap carbon steels, I was happy when better things came along.

And I do carry a cheap Timex watch for the same reason.

 

[shunsui]

I am a software engineer for the record, and there's a awful lot of people out there who are convinced that I have no need for the knife(knives) at all, and I shouldn't be allowed to cary them either. It's just one step further from "no need for better steels"

That pretty much sums it up.

 

[Gator97]

but there's the other side a s well, those who buy the highest carbide volume and hardest steels on the market, then sharpen to that same 40 degree inclusive angle, or don't bother to use them at all. And there are people with 600 hp cars who don't get out of 2nd, or 4wd SUVs that don't leave the pavement. I can see how it would get tiresome to read high opinions from people who never had a need for the attributes and don't actually know what they are.

Yeah, of course there are all sorts of users, of cars, knives and whatever else. Neither super thin angles nor high speeds are a must either. Whatever works for you. It's just the approach that's not quite convincing, "I don't need(or don't know) it, so it must be excessive or snoby"...

 

[Alan Mackey]

Doesn't really matter how much I use a knife, if steel A performs better than steel B, that's enough. If a knife with one steel can do the same job with the edge twice as thin compared to knife B in another steel, that's all.

I disagree. No matter how good you think you are at driving: you couldn't even finish a single lap aboard a F1. So, maybe (just maybe) having such an overkill might be counterproductive.

You certainly do not need an INFI Busse, you (or me, for that matter) won't be able to make the most of an Esee. So, if you go buy a Busee it's just because you like shiny pretty things (me too) not because you are going to perform better.

Same thing happens with casual runners who buy competition shoes that only true professionals can squeeze properly. Nothing wrong with that, but it's just a wannabe's dream. And, I repeat once again, I'm guilty of that too.

 

[Alan Mackey]

This next statement is probably going to ruffle a lot a feathers. IMO "Super Steels" are used more often as a selling point, or "Cool Factor", rather than from a point of purpose and function. My personal philosophy is I want make the best possible knife I can for the most reasonable cost, I never sacrifice quality or function for the sake of "cool" or asthetics, I make tools not art, and a more expensive material is never an indicator of superior function.

I tip my hat to you, sir.

 

[Sharp Knives 86]

The thing isn't really about the steel so much as the price tag. Thing is, I can find agreement with you on some level. I just don't go through enough cardboard/fiberglass/carpet to need S125V blade steel. But for me, I find myself willing to abuse my Mora more than say, a $400 custom. Not quite prying a tree open, but more leaving it in the sheath after trimming and processing a pallet of vegetables without wiping it down.

Yup. While steel choice is important to me, in the end as long as the knife itself appeals to me and has a good reputation for it's intended use it can be made of AUS8 or INFI for all I care. Truth is back in the day when I was a teen, I started out collecting alot of cheap Chinese and Pakistani made knives and I put most of them through the ringer and while many of them got chips on the blades or the guards would loosen etc, none of them were damaged beyond repair (which looking back on it now is very surprising considering). Basically what it boils down to, a cheap knife "made in Pakistan" would probably suffice for what most of us here use our knives for but why settle for less if you want and can afford something better? I'd love to own a Busse (a Team Gemini is my most wanted knife atm) but I cant afford one so I'll stick with something cheaper made with a "lesser" steel but don't think I wouldn't get the Busse if I had the cash.

 

[Alan Mackey]

Yeah, of course there are all sorts of users, of cars, knives and whatever else. Neither super thin angles nor high speeds are a must either. Whatever works for you. It's just the approach that's not quite convincing, "I don't need(or don't know) it, so it must be excessive or snoby"...

Me, wanting to have a Mnandi is not snobby, just a capricious mood. But... me, NOT wanting to have a perfectly valid Boker Trance just because it's not made from a super steel it certainly would be snobby.

Me, wanting to buy a Ferrari would be understandable (who doesn't like a Ferrari?). Me discarding a BMW ///M3 just because it's not a Ferrari would be rather idiotic, don't you think?

We all would like to make $1M a year, wouldn't we? But no one should say no to a job that pays "just over $675K".

Nothing wrong in purchasing a Busse. All kinds of wrong discarding a Bark River just because it's not a Busse.

Can we at least agree on this?

 

[Gator97]

...But... me, NOT wanting to have a perfectly valid Boker Trance just because it's not made from a super steel it certainly would be snobby.

My point is, steel choice(with proper HT), along with geometry and intended use define whether the knife is valid, budget/bargain or not, no snobbism is necessary. Let me put it this way, let's say, opening letters and occasional cardboard is all really intend to use the knife for. Having a "super steel", let's say CPM 110V instead of conventional, let's say 440C which Boker likes so much, will give both, thinner edge(thus better cutting performance) and much better edge longevity. So, why would you consider that to be snobbism, just to want a better performance.
Yes, I understand, there are people who won't ever sharpen or use and buy that knife just because it was made out of whatever super steel. Just, the point is, choosing a better steel, or asking for it, doesn't automatically mean a person(you, me or anyone) is being snobbish. I don't need to have 1000 inches of cardboard to cut daily to ask for a better steel either

Nothing wrong in purchasing a Busse. All kinds of wrong discarding a Bark River just because it's not a Busse.

Can we at least agree on this?

Depends what do you want from your knife.

Over the years and all I have learned about knives and steels, I came to the conclusion that Heat Treatment matters more than the type of steel. A bad HT can turn a "Super Steel" into a scrap pile steel.

Yes, however I doubt anyone is asking for a supersteel with a botched HT . Comparing steel A to steel B makes sense only when both have the best possible HT. After that, the edge optimized for whatever it is being used, geometry, etc.

 

[Rob_Angerer]

I'm a steel snob. It comes from being discerning, and enjoying the hobby of being a knife collector and avid user. It isn't completely rational, it's rooted in some sort of passion for the hobby.

I know how to sharpen, to a hair popping edge, yet, it's not a ritual I particularly enjoy. I appreciate a good knife steel that holds it's edge for a while so I don't have to futz w/ sharpening or stropping.

As time goes on, I realize I love the *few* wondrous safe queens (e.g. a damascus Broadwell subhilt, or the Reinhard Tshager damascus integral), but what I get the most day-to-day enjoyment from are 1) very finely designed and executed folders that I can carry daily and 2) finely designed (fit for purpose) working knives, like a high performance Dozier or Phil Wilson hunter or filet knife, or a well designed camp knife that can serve as a tool (light chopping) or as an outdoor Chef's knife.

So I've focused my funds, lately, on folders, since that is daily carry, and daily enjoyment stuff. I EDC stuff that is from $80 to $1400. I can always send the $1400 folder to the maker for a refurb. It's what I get enjoyment from. I rotate a couple dozen folders as EDC knives. And I have very few friends who appreciate fine knives... it's a personal enjoyment thing, not a bragging rights thing. I don't wear an expensive watch, but that's probably next.

So I don't worry nearly so much (for EDC folders) about the ultimate steel (I choose damascus over say 110V) as I do about the design and the materials used, and the comfort of carry and use. I find that, consistent with research on what people tend to covet and prize most, I like knives that are well made and feel good in-hand. Not just handle ergonomics, but also a rounding of sharp edges on the handle and other points that make consistent hand contact. Sharp edges where they don't belong are not desireable. I also value interesting and beautiful materials. Damascus for looks and interest (and not for performance, necessarily), nice woods, nice fossilized handle materials, or cool looking tactical carbon fiber materials.

Would I carry a 440A folder? Probably not ... not for myself. But anything from 440C and AUS-8 is ok, but just has tended to disappear from my collection. Life is too short to carry knives that don't satisfy on some level... ergonomics, design, steel, interest level.

I have a short attention span, and demand high quality entertainment. ;-)

 

[james terrio]

I'm going to drift a bit, because this whole topic irks me.

Heck, the old mountain men used plain old carbon steel thin bladed butcher knives for the most part, as did the later buffalo hunters. No wonder choppers or mirracle steel of the month.

You're missing a big part of the point. At that time, reliable consistant steel from places like Solingen and Sheffield WAS what we would call "super steel" today. It represented the finest materials and highest technology available at the time, and most people who made their living with edged tools were happy to pay more for the best they could get.

Similarly, I'd bet dollars to donuts most ancient smiths in Norway, Japan or Syria would have quite happily traded their bloomery steel for precision-ground bars of O1. Not because they were trendy or snobbish, I assure you... simply because a trained warrior whose blade failed in combat (assuming he lived through the experience) would have a high likelihood of returning to the smith with a very, very bad attitude.

The reverse-snobbery of folks who insist that AUS-8or 440A is "just as good for most folks" as ElMax or CPM-154 is just plain silliness, mixed with a healthy portion of sour grapes. Never forget that at least 90% of the steel chosen for mass-produced knives is NOT selected based on it's performance capabilities, but on its low cost and the ease with which it can be ground.

 

[singularity35]

I'm going to drift a bit, because this whole topic irks me.



You're missing a big part of the point. At that time, reliable consistant steel from places like Solingen and Sheffield WAS what we would call "super steel" today. It represented the finest materials and highest technology available at the time, and most people who made their living with edged tools were happy to pay more for the best they could get.

Similarly, I'd bet dollars to donuts most ancient smiths in Norway, Japan or Syria would have quite happily traded their bloomery steel for precision-ground bars of O1. Not because they were trendy or snobbish, I assure you... simply because a trained warrior whose blade failed in combat (assuming he lived through the experience) would have a high likelihood of returning to the smith with a very, very bad attitude.

The reverse-snobbery of folks who insist that AUS-8or 440A is "just as good for most folks" as ElMax or CPM-154 is just plain silliness, mixed with a healthy portion of sour grapes. Never forget that at least 90% of the steel chosen for mass-produced knives is NOT selected based on it's performance capabilities, but on its low cost and the ease with which it can be ground.

Yep, that's what this all is.