Super Steels vs Regular Steels

[DevinT]

“Super steels” is a term made up by the people making things out of steel and not the steel manufacturer.

Every once in a while, I see a new steel or blade material pop up and everyone gets excited about it only to find out that it’s not as good as what is already out there.

In my forty one years of knife making, I have seen lots of makers experiment with wild complicated heat treatments and then make outrageous claims. They explain the “science” behind what they are doing but when pressed they have no idea what they are talking about, it does sound impressive using a bunch of big made up terms though.

BC is using higher austenitizing temperatures putting more carbon in solution allowing for higher attainable hardness. The mar-quench allows for faster quench rates also leading to higher hardness. The slow cooling in the oil is a type of aus-temper and probably produces some bainite, some testing shows bainite to be tougher than martensite. I’m sure with the high aus-temps, there is some retained austenite making things tougher also.

A steel like aeb-l will never be as wear resistant as 10-V, and 10-V will never be as tough as aeb-l no matter what heat treat protocol was followed. Steels are limited by their nominal chemical make up.

Solidification, homogenization, forging, rolling, normalizing, annealing, austenitizing, quench rate, sub-zero quenching, tempering etc. all affect the outcome. Most makers understand very little about the entire process.

The bigger the story, the bigger the price of the knife.

Hoss

 

[marcinek]

Luong La is a great guy. He's not out to bamboozle people. He is good natured.

I am sure that is true. That doesn't constitute scientific proof though.

"marcinek's a good guy. Likes puppies and kitties. He says the Earth is flat, and it sure looks flat, so I guess it's true."

 

[marcinek]

“Super steels” is a term made up by the people making things out of steel and not the steel manufacturer.

It's a term made up by the marketing people for the people making things out of steel.

 

[Revolverrodger]

Since Bluntcut has published his protocol Larrin or perhaps a knife maker could make some sample using the method

 

[danbot]

I feel vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate. I'm not going to come in here with some cockamamie graph, nonsense experiment, handwaving "science," or misguided understanding of mathematics to prove it.

But I still have strong convictions that it is better.

It is better. Fact!

 

[marcinek]

 

[danbot]

Since Bluntcut has published his protocol Larrin or perhaps a knife maker could make some sample using the method

Its not his protocol or his results that are so much in question. It's his explanations.

 

[Revolverrodger]

Its not his protocol or his results that are so much in question. It's his explanations.

Bluntcut stated that his explanation was only a hypothesis based on his understanding

If other people validate that his method works and makes good knives, samples can be made an analyzed to explain the science behind it

 

[Twindog]

“Super steels” is a term made up by the people making things out of steel and not the steel manufacturer....
Hoss

Of course, there is Uddeholm's Vanax SuperClean, which is an awesome steel for knife blades.

I don't know anyone who says "super" is a technical term with a precise definition. That's a straw-man argument. I just called Vanax SuperClean "awesome," but I'm not claiming that Vanax is awesome in a technical sense with a precise definition of "awesome" that is agreed upon by all metallurgists.

Uddeholm is saying that Vanax is super clean because it is processed in a way that gives it far less impurities or inclusions than most other steels processed in traditional ways.

And, yes, I know you know this.

 

[DeadboxHero]

Nah Marci, you're just "alright"

But yeah what you're saying is true, being a good dude doesn't mean someone is right about everything and it doesn't mean we have to agree about everything.

I am sure that is true. That doesn't constitute scientific proof though.

"marcinek's a good guy. Likes puppies and kitties. He says the Earth is flat, and it sure looks flat, so I guess it's true."

 

[danbot]

Bluntcut stated that his explanation was only a hypothesis based on his understanding

If other people validate that his method works and makes good knives, samples can be made an analyzed to explain the science behind it

I've heard of people who have an understanding that "When the steel glows the colour of the sun, it is ready to receive it's soul."

That doesn't make the knife any more than an inanimate object.

 

[marcinek]

Nah Marci, you're just "alright"

But yeah what you're saying is true, being a good dude doesn't mean someone is right about everything and it doesn't mean we have to agree about everything.

Well, I will take what I can get!

And we don't have to agree on everything, like "vanilla vs chocolate", or "convex grind vs vee," or "what steel is best."

But we have to agree on things that have been proven (or not proven) by experiment and/or mathematics. There is no debating those, you know? That is what they are for.

 

[shinyedges]

What did bluntcuts say was "science" ? He named a heat treatment protocol just like a bunch of other people. D3v hasn't been examined in the methods that proves "science" either.

What I don't like about blunt cuts posts was his beyond confusing approach to describing what he is trying to convey. I don't recall ever seeing him say his method is proven by "science".. I could be wrong.

 

[shinyedges]

And whatever he did that isn't "science" impressed Nathanthemachinist enough to warrant his opinion of further examination. Apparently it isn't voodoo magic in a closet with a pineapple.

And unlike many of his detractors, bluntcut tried something and made videos to document it as well as sent out test blades to other makers. Something to be said for that, lots of loud mouths doing a whole lot of hot air breathing talking smack about the dude and science lol

Criminy.

 

[Larrin]

Of course, there is Uddeholm's Vanax SuperClean, which is an awesome steel for knife blades.

You forgot Blue/Aogami Super Steel and Super Gold steel.

 

[shinyedges]

Larrin nothing I said was directed at you, I for one appreciate your contribution to our hobby and forum. Thank you for what you do.

 

[danbot]

And whatever he did that isn't "science" impressed Nathanthemachinist enough to warrant his opinion of further examination. Apparently it isn't voodoo magic in a closet with a pineapple.

And unlike many of his detractors, bluntcut tried something and made videos to document it as well as sent out test blades to other makers. Something to be said for that, lots of loud mouths doing a whole lot of hot air breathing talking smack about the dude and science lol

Criminy.

Maybe he is forming a mixture of Bainite and martensite. That's testable. "Weaving" and "patching" crystals are his explanations that are being questioned. I don't know how testable that is or isn't. It would be good to have that scientifically supported before making the claim.

ETA: I think all of the physical testing he does is great, and more makers should be that dedicated to testing.

 

[shinyedges]

Maybe he is forming a mixture of Bainite and martensite. That's testable. "Weaving" and "patching" crystals are his explanations that are being questioned. I don't know how testable that is or isn't. It would be good to have that scientifically supported before making the claim.

ETA: I think all of the physical testing he does is great, and more makers should be that dedicated to testing.

I'm totally in agreement Dan, I don't think (in my limited knowledge) that those terms accurately depict what's occuring. Terminology out the window, the results he's shown through video's and that others have tested are evidence his process does something otherwise blades that hard snap under the use shown.

All I'm saying is, everyone's talking smack about science and I've yet to see him claim his methods are proven by science and his naming of his heat treat is and has been done by many others whose videos sufficed as evidence.

Whatever he's doing, regardless of the name, it's being documented and tested and so far so good. I'm unaware of ANY knifemaker whose had their claims proven under the standards that have them backed by "science".

 

[shinyedges]

Can anyone provide a single other knifemaker whose gone through the process of having their heat treatment claims processes documented and proven through "science" ?

Anyone?

I get it, the name crystal weaving foundation has everyone in a tissy lol he should have chose a better heat treat protocol name.

 

[danbot]

Can anyone provide a single other knifemaker whose gone through the process of having their heat treatment claims processes documented and proven through "science" ?

Anyone?

I get it, the name crystal weaving foundation has everyone in a tissy lol he should have chose a better heat treat protocol name.

Ed Fowler.