Super Steels vs Regular Steels

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craytab said:
Actual science.

Many of us work or have worked in the various scientific fields. I myself spent many years working as a data analyst for an organization that did large scale epidemiological studies funded by the NIH. Getting those grants was quite laborious, requiring hundreds and hundreds of hours of work from actual scientists. Then, if we were awarded said grant, typically about $2 million, we would spend years putting together, implementing, analyzing, being reviewed by our IRB, and writing peer reviewed conclusions to our findings. It was incredibly complex. But it was an actual contribution to science, and yes, our subjects were part of that contribution.

So to have some guy come along and babble a bunch of made up stuff that he can't prove, break a few knives, and call it a contribution to science? Yeah, I can call bs on that.
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A guy named Nathan who surely knows more than you do about knife performance thinks it's a good idea to take a closer look. I agree with him, regardless of the unicorn dark matter lattice blunt cut thinks is happening.
 
shinyedges said:
I don't care if he thinks he's turning the inside to unicorn horn, if he makes a knife survive when it should fail, there is potential for something to be gained.

If later down the road he's formally corrected as to what's occuring, so be it. Why not look at his results? The condemnation benefits no one, sure he may be confused or down right wrong on what he thinks is happening.

His results still deserve to be looked at.
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I did look at his results. They are impressive. They are not scientific and nor do they need to be. Just don't call them science and many people will have no problems. I don't require scientific test to make good knife, but if a maker calls it that it damn well better be.
 
shinyedges said:
A guy named Nathan who surely knows more than you do about knife performance thinks it's a good idea to take a closer look. I agree with him, regardless of the unicorn dark matter lattice blunt cut thinks is happening.
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And so do I. But if we call it science it needs to be scientific. Just make the damn knives. Don't call it something it isn't. Or get some real science involved.
 
I’ve seen some poorly made poorly heat treated knives on “Forged in Fire” do some surprising things. Chopping bone, hard wood etc. doesn't mean it’s a good knife. Measuring hardness is also not proof of a good heat treat. Theorizing what’s going on in the steel is different than what is actually going on.

Hoss
 
craytab said:
I did look at his results. They are impressive. They are not scientific and nor do they need to be. Just don't call them science and many people will have no problems. I don't require scientific test to make good knife, but if a maker calls it that it damn well better be.
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I get it, and I agree. I just don't judge him so harshly. However misled he is, he's doing something and making some sort of progress. More then I can claim from the comfort of doing nothing.
 
shinyedges said:
A guy named Nathan who surely knows more than you do about knife performance thinks it's a good idea to take a closer look. I agree with him, regardless of the unicorn dark matter lattice blunt cut thinks is happening.
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No need to condescend. I know exactly who nathan is and you know it. Got his knife on my belt as we speak.
 
DevinT said:
I’ve seen some poorly made poorly heat treated knives on “Forged in Fire” do some surprising things. Chopping bone, hard wood etc. doesn't mean it’s a good knife. Measuring hardness is also not proof of a good heat treat. Theorizing what’s going on in the steel is different than what is actually going on.
Hoss
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And that's the problem! He could present it as the "Bluntcut's Crystal Weaving Theory" instead of presenting it as science.
 
Personally, in a real world not made of cardboard and clean rope and dead vertical cuts, I find most supersteels brittle and lacking, especially in stainless. 3V seems to be the exception.

But yet blades get ever thinner, even while the supersteels are not advertised as springs. Not even 3V....

If all you want is the world's most expensive box knife, many makers and steels have you well covered.

But when it comes to puncturing and opening a tin can, light prying under a stripped fastener head where only a knife edge will fit, hard stabs hitting unpredictable materials and objects...

A lot of the old fashioned steels look pretty good, especially when wanting a stainless blade....

I remain unimpressed, in general, as gains often taken away by making tactical/military chef knives....and the steels not rated for flexing, at all....I would rather have a martempered 80CrV2 blade for most of those combat cook knives ever so baby talk "slicey" as demanded by a market of office workers whose main use is in the kitchen at home....
 
Larrin said:
It's a good idea to suggest that my testing is bad before I test anything. That way if it doesn't confirm what you want you can say you knew my testing wouldn't be fair to begin with.
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I admire your grim determination and/or gumption to argue on the internet. It ain't easy. Ask me about trying to convince the internet that titanium alloys aren't brittle!* Six years now and STILL damn near every time I or someone else posts a ti sword somewhere other than on Bladeforums, here comes more experts citing credentials and proclaiming with absolute authority that a titanium sword will shatter like glass and never ever get sharp. Ever.

...because space ships and fighter jets are made out of brittle and weak materials. :D



danbot said:
But what IS his CWF HT protocol?
I see a lot of explanations about what he believes is happening, but no step by step process that would allow replication for peer review, testing and evaluation.
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After reading his thread some time ago, I came to the conclusion that he was doing a sort of marquenching / martempering (high temperature quench with no tempering afterwards), and getting great results mainly with steel that has a lot of vanadium in it. I think he said that I was basically correct other than some smaller details. Not sure though.

*edit: I see it was found and posted and I was pretty much right. Damn that feels good. No reason his ht can't make a good knife imo.


*Of course they can be put into a brittle state but that's now how ti alloys are used of course.
 
Mecha said:
After reading his thread some time ago, I came to the conclusion that he was doing a sort of marquenching / martempering (high temperature quench with no tempering afterwards), and getting great results mainly with steel that has a lot of vanadium in it. I think he said that I was basically correct other than some smaller details. Not sure though.
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Another member found the link to his HT protocol and it sure seems that way if you ignore what he thinks is happening. But I think I remember him being adamant that he was not marquenching.
 
Mecha said:
I admire your grim determination and/or gumption to argue on the internet. It ain't easy. Ask me about trying to convince the internet that titanium alloys aren't brittle!* Six years now and STILL damn near every time I or someone else posts a ti sword somewhere other than on Bladeforums, here comes more experts citing credentials and proclaiming with absolute authority that a titanium sword will shatter like glass and never ever get sharp. Ever.

...because space ships and fighter jets are made out of brittle and weak materials. :D






After reading his thread some time ago, I came to the conclusion that he was doing a sort of marquenching / martempering (high temperature quench with no tempering afterwards), and getting great results mainly with steel that has a lot of vanadium in it. I think he said that I was basically correct other than some smaller details. Not sure though.

*edit: I see it was found and posted and I was pretty much right. Damn that feels good. No reason his ht can't make a good knife imo.


*Of course they can be put into a brittle state but that's now how ti alloys are used of course.
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I think he was focusing on getting any steel tougher and stronger, not necessarily high vanadium steels. He worked a lot with 52100 and W2. I think he kind of shifted to higher alloy steels because that's what he was more interested in finding solutions for based on where knives are going. That and it was working so he just kept rolling with it. He does post some impressive numbers off of a calibrated hardness tester and then puts the edges to hard work. His knife profiles aren't thick and his edges aren't usually any more than maybe 20-25 degrees per side. That's not ridiculous for any maker.

What's interesting to me is that he's posted all that in basically raw video format AND offered for basically anyone to test them. I think that all these critics who know believe they know what's happening should have stepped forward when there were probably 30 or more different knives available to test over a several year period and a LOT more coupons he would have happily sent out, as he did for Nathan and Ankerson. These critics weren't anywhere to be found. Yet here they are now admonishing a man who's undeserving of it. They should have stepped up to the plate when the opportunity was there. Not wait until years later then trash him.

Anyway, if they're marquenched and it's easy to do and it's easy to get the results he was getting, I'd think more makers would do it seeing how good the end result is and people who've used them seem to genuinely like the end result.
 
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Someone1 said:
I think he was focusing on getting any steel tougher and stronger, not necessarily high vanadium steels. He worked a lot with 52100 and W2. I think he kind of shifted to higher alloy steels because that's what he was more interested in finding solutions for based on where knives are going. That and it was working so he just kept rolling with it. He does post some impressive numbers off of a calibrated hardness tester and then puts the edges to hard work. His knife profiles aren't thick and his edges aren't usually any more than maybe 20-25 degrees per side. That's not ridiculous for any maker.

What's interesting to me is that he's posted all that in basically raw video format AND offered for basically anyone to test them. I think that all these critics who know believe they know what's happening should have stepped forward when there were probably 30 or more different knives available to test over a several year period and a LOT more coupons he would have happily sent out, as he did for Nathan and Ankerson. These critics weren't anywhere to be found. Yet here they are now admonishing a man who's undeserving of it. They should have stepped up to the plate when the opportunity was there. Not wait until years later then trash him.

Anyway, if they're marquenched and it's easy to do and it's easy to get the results he was getting, I'd think more makers would do it seeing how good the end result is and people who've used them seem to genuinely like the end result.
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Like "they" say, "Its never too late"! I think he should raise some money and work with a metallurgist to come up with a testing proposal that can prove his theories and then raise some more money to complete that metallurgical testing.
 
marrenmiller said:
This thread keeps on giving.

I'm sorry Larrin.
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marrenmiller said:
This thread keeps on giving.

I'm sorry Larrin.
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For what? This is a good discussion.

Larrin, I'm not sorry. I'm grateful you create content that spurs learning and open dialogue that remains fairly civil.

This is like knife porn with a plot.

Since no one else here will ask, what are marquenching and martempering, why is it that people are claimimg that's what BC does, and if people who use it like it, why aren't more makers doing it? Can this turn steel into "super steel?":eek:

I ask because I've used a couple of his knives and they all performed better than others knives from other makers in the same steels made with more or less standard heat treatments.

Let's keep this learning going.
 
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There is a flip side to that argument though isn't there? :D

You can't chip your edge if you have NO edge :D.

Ultimate durability is usually just thick geometry mixed with low alloy, with a low hardness heat treatment.

The minute any serious cutting is being done with a knife designed to handle hardcore impact, prying and chiseling, the edge rolls and blunts and you have to stop and sharpen it every 5 seconds :D

Also, no use in putting a killer edge on that kind of stuff. It doesn't really want to take shape or release the burr, also it can't hold a crisp polished edge. Just goes smooth with very little use.
If you put that kind of steel in a slicer geometry (.100 stock, flat grind to 0.005"behind a 15dps edge) it's garbage and may even have some deformation behind the edge from basic cutting since it lacks the strength needed to hold it's shape.
The malleablity is perfect for impact energy and not breaking and relying on geometry thickness for strength/support.

So why not slice with a thicker knife? Well, you'll shoot a carrot across the room trying to slice with a thick boi. Generally, Thickness compromises cutting performance and quality for durability.

So those of use that can sharpen and not use our knives like hammers appreciate the harder steel since it supports geometries made to "cut" not bludgeon, chisel, scrap and pry.


I'm all for steels on the durable spectrum AND the cutting performance spectrum just have to point out that everything is a compromise. it seems people are vehemently in one camp or the other and refuse to see the benefits of either side and how the synergy works.

Just an opinion, not gospel so don't freak out :D


mtngunr said:
Personally, in a real world not made of cardboard and clean rope and dead vertical cuts, I find most supersteels brittle and lacking, especially in stainless. 3V seems to be the exception.

But yet blades get ever thinner, even while the supersteels are not advertised as springs. Not even 3V....

If all you want is the world's most expensive box knife, many makers and steels have you well covered.

But when it comes to puncturing and opening a tin can, light prying under a stripped fastener head where only a knife edge will fit, hard stabs hitting unpredictable materials and objects...

A lot of the old fashioned steels look pretty good, especially when wanting a stainless blade....

I remain unimpressed, in general, as gains often taken away by making tactical/military chef knives....and the steels not rated for flexing, at all....I would rather have a martempered 80CrV2 blade for most of those combat cook knives ever so baby talk "slicey" as demanded by a market of office workers whose main use is in the kitchen at home....
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DeadboxHero said:
Just an opinion, not gospel so don't freak out :D
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26fa7351853877-58fc79a1747a2.gif


Gospel :)
 
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