Super Steels vs Regular Steels

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To me, this thread represents the kind of place Bladeforums should be. An interesting discussion of well thought opinions based on fact/research and knowledge.

Not a sign of the normal snarkiness, the smart ass remarks, or even the guys trying to be cute for one another. This thread is a real keeper!

Robert
 
Natlek said:
There are plenty of more important things for one HT oven to do , besides reaching this temperature .
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Like what? Assuming it holds it accurately, what else do you need it to do?

Those ovens will work for HTing stainless steel.
 
Megawatt308 said:
Nice article. I hate when people recommend a super steel simply based on the number in the name as far as a rank. Like S110V is a better super steel than S90V or given the choice of steels they would choose CPM 4V over CPM 3V when they most likely don’t even have experience with either.

The worst part is to take steel recommendations from a guy with a high forum post count, thinking he has steel knowledge.

Always choose your steel based on how you will use them and what is important to you. Edge retention, corrosion resistance or resharpening ability to keep it very simple when it comes to folders.
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I completely agree with this post! It’s all about what steel suits YOUR needs best:thumbsup:
 
marrenmiller said:
Like what? Assuming it holds it accurately, what else do you need it to do?
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Extract from the Vanax steel data sheet :

When hardening in vacuum furnaces it is recommended to apply a nitrogen partial pressure of 150–200 mbar to counteract loss of Nitrogen on the surface.

Vacuum furnaces? Nitrogen partial pressure? Clearly not a job for a small knifemaker....
 
patrickguignot said:
Extract from the Vanax steel data sheet :

When hardening in vacuum furnaces it is recommended to apply a nitrogen partial pressure of 150–200 mbar to counteract loss of Nitrogen on the surface.

Vacuum furnaces? Nitrogen partial pressure? Clearly not a job for a small knifemaker....
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Not only is that only one relatively new and obscure nitrogen based super steel that you've cherry picked, but that's probably not even required for heat treatment. It's only recommended because of how they nitride the powdered metal to get the nitrogen into the steel in the first place. You can probably heat treat the vast majority of stainless steels by yourself just fine with a good knife kiln.
 
Revolverrodger said:
An excellent article showing the subjectivity of the term super steel.
Any chance of doing toughness tests for basic steels like 5160 and 1060
I wonder how they compare to 3V and S7
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Well heat treated 5160 and 1060 should be very close of S7 regarding toughness and way ahead of 3v. Can’t wait for Larrin to test these steels. I’m also really sad because of the lack of interest in the toughness tests showed by most makers. If I where a maker, no doubt I would see some coupons of my favorite tough steel being tested for toughness. My competitive spirit would make me do it.
 
marrenmiller said:
Not only is that only one relatively new and obscure nitrogen based super steel that you've cherry picked, but that's probably not even required for heat treatment. It's only recommended because of how they nitride the powdered metal to get the nitrogen into the steel in the first place.
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I haven't "cherry picked" a specific steel. It appears HT is often complex when you want to obtain the optimal performance.
See this extract for S110V (not a "relatively new and obscure" steel) :

For optimum vacuum heat treatment response, a minimum 4 bar gas quench is recommended.

So we have vacuum HT with a high positive pressure gas quench. Clearly not a job for a small knifemaker with a kiln in his garage.

marrenmiller said:
You can probably heat treat the vast majority of stainless steels by yourself just fine with a good knife kiln.
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Yes you can for the majority of stainless steels but is it an optimal HT? And what about the other stainless steels that are difficult or next to impossible to HT without professional machinery?
 
patrickguignot said:
I haven't "cherry picked" a specific steel. It appears HT is often complex when you want to obtain the optimal performance.
See this extract for S110V (not a "relatively new and obscure" steel) :

For optimum vacuum heat treatment response, a minimum 4 bar gas quench is recommended.

So we have vacuum HT with a high positive pressure gas quench. Clearly not a job for a small knifemaker with a kiln in his garage.



Yes you can for the majority of stainless steels but is it an optimal HT? And what about the other stainless steels that are difficult or next to impossible to HT without professional machinery?
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I think vacuum furnaces where created mostly to eliminate the human factor of the heat treatment process, so high quality “normal” furnaces with great temperature control (one for pre harden, other to harden and a third one to temper) operated by skilled people should do the job very well.
 
patrickguignot said:
Extract from the Vanax steel data sheet :

When hardening in vacuum furnaces it is recommended to apply a nitrogen partial pressure of 150–200 mbar to counteract loss of Nitrogen on the surface.

Vacuum furnaces? Nitrogen partial pressure? Clearly not a job for a small knifemaker....
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While I understand the concern for something like that. The same is true for virtually all stainless steels, except with most stainless steels it's carbon you're worried about.

In the case of carbon steels a steel envelope is wrapped around the blade to make sure this is limited or doesn't happen.

Or there are coatings for heat treatment which would prevent such things. No nitrogen powered oven needed.
 
That's a good question. I don't know if there are any issues with heat treating Vanax with stainless foil wrapped steel.
 
Thought provoking article.

IMO, the discussion hinges on several mythologies that are deeply embedded in modern western culture.

The first is that there is such as thing as a universally objective "best" object. Best tent, best bike, best camera, best car, best knife, best knife steel. IMO, "best" is always contextual. It is driven by things such as use cases and user skill levels and techniques and categorizing these contextual dimensions is not "objective" in the classic hard sciences meaning of the word. This is the transition from material engineering to systems engineering and design. The first attempts to recommend materials based on requirements discovered by the latter.

A second is the mythology that price is an indication of performance. This is a cornerstone mythology to an economy and society built on consumerism. To identify a design (including materials) that meet the needs of common use cases and common users that can be mass produced at an affordable price is heretical to the religious commitment that higher cost is, by definition, more better.

A closely related mythology is that of technical progress. Our culture has a deep religious commitment to the idea that new technology is always better. This is a view of technology that ignores context and history. IMO, a better view of technology superiority is more evolutionary. The best technologies are those that withstand the test of time and that continue to earn their keep by being well matched to their use cases and users.

And yet another mythology is the issue of self-realization, self-identity, and self-definition through consumer choices and brand associations. This is the terrain of deep marketing, brand loyalty and premium pricing strategies. Premium pricing has nothing to do with the production costs of an object and has everything to do with giving the buyer the ability to advertise to their peers that they are the kind of person who as the means and wisdom to purchase only "premium" products. In this context, there is a deep emotional need for there to be a "super steel" category, regardless of how well it meets the actual cutting needs of the user. It's real purpose is that there is some arguably justifiable reason to consider it "premium" and thus worthy of a big price tag. The real need that it fulfills is that it is expensive, so that the person buying it can have the joy of owning an expensive object.

Somebody wrote a great, albeit long book comparing the differences of an old beater Honda motorcycle and brand new BMW motorcycle as exposed on a long distance tour.
 
hugofeynman said:
I think vacuum furnaces where created mostly to eliminate the human factor of the heat treatment process, so high quality “normal” furnaces with great temperature control (one for pre harden, other to harden and a third one to temper) operated by skilled people should do the job very well.
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First, I will thank Larrin for the article...great job :) as stated by others in the end it is what you need what is important, not what others consider important.

Concerning the furnace, I would agree with the statement that you can heat treat 100% of these steels home...I started -for the moment as a hobby- a project to make M390 knives. Bought a furnace, LN2 tank, grinder, a Rockwell tester and a few other machining tools I already owned...and 2 3,5 & 4,5mm M390 plates...and there I went...
Been a totally ignorant in heat treatment (I made a few knives since I was a boy but only adding handles to blades I bought) I faced several problems, but the most important in the end was furnace calibration...M390 has showed me that is an excellent steel...which needs the proper process to get 100% performance out of it...and the way you process it can lead you to different blade results (+30 blades made so far in batches of 3 + a few more in the trash...:()
 
patrickguignot said:
I haven't "cherry picked" a specific steel. It appears HT is often complex when you want to obtain the optimal performance.
See this extract for S110V (not a "relatively new and obscure" steel) :

For optimum vacuum heat treatment response, a minimum 4 bar gas quench is recommended.

So we have vacuum HT with a high positive pressure gas quench. Clearly not a job for a small knifemaker with a kiln in his garage.



Yes you can for the majority of stainless steels but is it an optimal HT? And what about the other stainless steels that are difficult or next to impossible to HT without professional machinery?
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That's just saying that, if you decide to use a vaccum kiln, to use 4 bars. That's to help with oxidation, but is not required for heat treating (where you can use steel foil to help mitigate the oxidation in a regular kiln). You can quench and do a sub zero treatment yourself and get excellent results, as others have noted. Probably better than the vast majority of production knife companies, if you're careful.

IIRC from Phil Wilson's notes, he didn't mention any use of a vacuum kiln.
 
Lipo423 said:
First, I will thank Larrin for the article...great job :) as stated by others in the end it is what you need what is important, not what others consider important.

Concerning the furnace, I would agree with the statement that you can heat treat 100% of these steels home...I started -for the moment as a hobby- a project to make M390 knives. Bought a furnace, LN2 tank, grinder, a Rockwell tester and a few other machining tools I already owned...and 2 3,5 & 4,5mm M390 plates...and there I went...
Been a totally ignorant in heat treatment (I made a few knives since I was a boy but only adding handles to blades I bought) I faced several problems, but the most important in the end was furnace calibration...M390 has showed me that is an excellent steel...which needs the proper process to get 100% performance out of it...and the way you process it can lead you to different blade results (+30 blades made so far in batches of 3 + a few more in the trash...:()
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So you claim that you have inside a constant temperature in each corner of your Evenheat oven ?
 
Natlek said:
So you claim that you have inside a constant temperature in each corner of your Evenheat oven ?
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You don’t have a constant heat in every place of a vacuum furnace (someone correct me if I’m wrong, please). But with molten salt, you have.
 
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