Super Steels vs Regular Steels

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marrenmiller said:
My interests are mainly in the reports of the performance I've heard about on this forum, which range from humdrum to beyond mythical
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I think it depends on what you mean by performance. If you're strictly talking edge holding, there's lots of steels that will outperform infi. Infi is more about being a balance of many attributes than being a world beater in any one. It combines toughness, edge holding, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening into a package that really shines in rough use, away from the niceties of civilization and high tech sharpening equipment. It gets beaten out by other steels in each of those individual traits, but it's difficult (but probably not impossible these days) to beat for a balance of them.

I'm not sure any sort of scientific testing of this or that attribute is going to be able to give an accurate picture of why some of us like it so much. It's just going to show it being inferior to steel x in this respect without showing that it's way better than steel x in that respect that wasn't part of the test. It shines in its ability to be used hard and easily maintained under any conditions you darned well want to (and also those you don't want to if you're unlucky) and keep on saying, "Thank you, sir! May I have another?" I'm not sure how you test for the difference between overly hyped and overall picture.
 
hexenjager said:
I think it depends on what you mean by performance. If you're strictly talking edge holding, there's lots of steels that will outperform infi. Infi is more about being a balance of many attributes than being a world beater in any one. It combines toughness, edge holding, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening into a package that really shines in rough use, away from the niceties of civilization and high tech sharpening equipment. It gets beaten out by other steels in each of those individual traits, but it's difficult (but probably not impossible these days) to beat for a balance of them.

I'm not sure any sort of scientific testing of this or that attribute is going to be able to give an accurate picture of why some of us like it so much. It's just going to show it being inferior to steel x in this respect without showing that it's way better than steel x in that respect that wasn't part of the test. It shines in its ability to be used hard and easily maintained under any conditions you darned well want to (and also those you don't want to if you're unlucky) and keep on saying, "Thank you, sir! May I have another?" I'm not sure how you test for the difference between overly hyped and overall picture.
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I guess I'm curious because I've heard that it's very tough (though at the edge geometry busse uses, maybe anything would be indestructible) and also good in wear resistance. A description I read on bladeforums of his endless rope cutting demos come to mind.
 
marrenmiller said:
I guess I'm curious because I've heard that it's very tough (though at the edge geometry busse uses, maybe anything would be indestructible) and also good in wear resistance. A description I read on bladeforums of his endless rope cutting demos come to mind.
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I think you hit the nail on the head, whether intentionally or not. Infi has good wear resistance, not necessarily outstanding wear resistance.
 
marrenmiller said:
I guess I'm curious because I've heard that it's very tough (though at the edge geometry busse uses, maybe anything would be indestructible) and also good in wear resistance. A description I read on bladeforums of his endless rope cutting demos come to mind.
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And if you buy one and try it you can find out for yourself!
 
craytab said:
And if you buy one and try it you can find out for yourself!
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Yeah no. I'd rather just hope that someday someone does some objective testing of one. I saw cedricada ran a knife made of INFI through his barrage of testing, which was definitely interesting.
hexenjager said:
I think you hit the nail on the head, whether intentionally or not. Infi has good wear resistance, not necessarily outstanding wear resistance.
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Yeah, maybe I should have clarified better. I'm referring to this report on bladeforums, when I suggest that there might be some hype regarding the wear resistance for a toughness-focused steel.
 
marrenmiller said:
Yeah no. I'd rather just hope that someday someone does some objective testing of one. I saw cedricada ran a knife made of INFI through his barrage of testing, which was definitely interesting.

Yeah, maybe I should have clarified better. I'm referring to this report on bladeforums, when I suggest that there might be some hype regarding the wear resistance for a toughness-focused steel.
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I'm not sure why anyone thinking about the hype of a given steel would rather rely on other people's tests rather than their own experience. Buy it and give it a try.
 
In this my first year of collecting knives, I have the ignominious distinction of having chipped blades in a variety of steels: CTS-XHP, LC200N, 20CV, and M390. Haven’t done it yet with S30V or S35VN, but give me time.

On one hand, I appreciate premium materials, and I love the objective data the OP presents. On the other hand, I don’t really make hard use of knives (despite my initial statement), and I’d like to think I won’t be a “steelist” and forgo buying a great knife solely due to its steel.

Even so, and not to discount the value of design and construction in knives, but I do look askance at paying a lot of money for basic materials, in blade or handle. And I find unusual and varied steels interesting to own and use. Many of my favorite knives have “premium” steels, but not all. I’m also starting to appreciate toughness more and focus less on edge retention, as I become more comfortable with sharpening and stropping.
 
Infi won't be a great slicer through manila rope, or dirty boar and bear and moose hair and hide . The higher carbide steels do better there ( 3V, 4V, Cruwear on up to 10V plus the stainless steels with vanadium). Infi will do push cutting very well where the edge would normally degrade by micro chipping . Two very different things. I believe if one looks at the tests done on Infi it was more along that line. Yes rope can be push cut or sliced.

I like both and don't prefer 3v or 4V to Infi nor Infi to them. None of them are poor performers and all will or won't do the jobs depending on what is asked of them. I wouldn't want to cape animals with a chopping knife or do the work of an X-ACTO knife with a Western 49 . I'm not a great believer in one knife for everything . All have their uses.
 
jnevill said:
1095 is MY super steel!
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I'm starting to think you might be right.

While I'm rather new to this 'knives as hobby' caper, and might well not stick with it, I've used a lot of knives in my time.

Since being here, I have bought rather a few knives with a variety of steels on the basis of: "just to see what they're like". I probably don't have a good enough baseline of experience, but I'm starting to think on a quotation attributed to Lord Kelvin (of absolute zero fame, and I'm not talking vodka) that "Large increases in cost with questionable increases in performance can be tolerated only in racehorses and fancy women". I'm thinking "Hmm .. neither of those are knives".

Perhaps I'll find, with extended usage, that the improvement in performance from my "super steel" knives is better than "questionable". But I'm not at all sure I've seen it yet. At least not to the extent that there's performance to justify the "super pricing" of some...

...Mike
 
INFI is the same as A8mod which is used for wood chippers in industrial use
Furthermore Frederik Haakonsen a knifemaker and metallurgist uses it in his big choppers

Finally I have used INFI to chop through deer antlers at -20oC and other hard materials and it is very tough stuff
 
Years ago a US knifemaker told me in person that he used to use the steel type that would later become known as INFI for making industrial knives for cutting rubber as well as for tactical knives of his own design.
When that steel became no longer available to him he switched to A8 (iirc a modified version)
 
The Mastiff said:
Infi won't be a great slicer through manila rope, or dirty boar and bear and moose hair and hide . The higher carbide steels do better there ( 3V, 4V, Cruwear on up to 10V plus the stainless steels with vanadium). Infi will do push cutting very well where the edge would normally degrade by micro chipping . Two very different things. I believe if one looks at the tests done on Infi it was more along that line. Yes rope can be push cut or sliced.
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Best post of the thread.

This is why I think "edge retention" is such a horrible term when talking about knife blades. How blades degrade depends on what is being cut and how the knife is being used to do the cut. "Edge retention" as a term just sweeps all of that aside. Sadness ensues.
 
pinnah said:
Best post of the thread.

This is why I think "edge retention" is such a horrible term when talking about knife blades. How blades degrade depends on what is being cut and how the knife is being used to do the cut. "Edge retention" as a term just sweeps all of that aside. Sadness ensues.
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Worst post of the thread.

This is why the CATRA knife edge testing uses a standardized material for the testing of knife edges and more importantly, geometry of edges. You can't compare edges when one is tested against sisal rope and one is tested against butter and call it scientific testing.
"edge retention" has now been replaced with "wear resistance". It is a real thing, and does hold value in assessing a steels likely cutting performance. Is it perfect? No. But it will be improved upon over time.
 
JimMD said:
In this my first year of collecting knives, I have the ignominious distinction of having chipped blades in a variety of steels: CTS-XHP, LC200N, 20CV, and M390. Haven’t done it yet with S30V or S35VN, but give me time.

On one hand, I appreciate premium materials, and I love the objective data the OP presents. On the other hand, I don’t really make hard use of knives (despite my initial statement), and I’d like to think I won’t be a “steelist” and forgo buying a great knife solely due to its steel.

Even so, and not to discount the value of design and construction in knives, but I do look askance at paying a lot of money for basic materials, in blade or handle. And I find unusual and varied steels interesting to own and use. Many of my favorite knives have “premium” steels, but not all. I’m also starting to appreciate toughness more and focus less on edge retention, as I become more comfortable with sharpening and stropping.
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You may want a steel with better edge stability and toughness. Something 5hat will roll instead of chip. Cruewear, M4, AEB-L, 52100. Steels like 3v, 4v and Elmax are good with toughness and edge retention but will chip, they just have a tendency to take more before they do.

With that said you can use a more obtuse edge angle on the steel you have chipping on to reduce that effect or just don't use them for the tasks your performing with them. Obtuse edge angles will reduce edge retention.. Also I have seen poor sharpening or abrasives (or a combo of the two) also cause chipping.
 
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