Super Steels vs Regular Steels

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Natlek said:
So you claim that you have inside a constant temperature in each corner of your Evenheat oven ?
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I do not own an Evenheat furnace, I own a Paragon with the full digital controller and a special thermocouple (I regret now not having ordered it with two thermocouples)...also I only work in a limited area (center) to make sure the temperature is as constant as possible.
Obviously at the corners the temperature is not the same like in the center (a good alternative to measure your accuracy besides all the available "electronic devices" are furnace cones
 
Charlie Mike said:
Yes, those are easy.
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Right. I don't understand the discussion here about needing a vacuum kiln. Very talented makers, like yourself, have been successful using regular temperature controlled kilns, proper heat treat protocols, and things like steel foil. It's not like you absolutely need the vacuum to get an incredibly cutting edge knife. It just helps a little.

For reference, this is what AKS lists as the heat treat protocol for M390. All of this is well within the reach of an enthusiast knifemaker with an evenheat and some dry ice.
 
midnight flyer said:
To me, this thread represents the kind of place Bladeforums should be. An interesting discussion of well thought opinions based on fact/research and knowledge.

Not a sign of the normal snarkiness, the smart ass remarks, or even the guys trying to be cute for one another. This thread is a real keeper!

Robert
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I agree. This thread is providing me with a lot of food for thought. And some education.
 
marrenmiller said:
Right. I don't understand the discussion here about needing a vacuum kiln. Very talented makers, like yourself, have been successful using regular temperature controlled kilns, proper heat treat protocols, and things like steel foil. It's not like you absolutely need the vacuum to get an incredibly cutting edge knife. It just helps a little.

For reference, this is what AKS lists as the heat treat protocol for M390. All of this is well within the reach of an enthusiast knifemaker with an evenheat and some dry ice.
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I agree 100%...no need for a vacuum kiln.
Concerning the AKS process if you want to get a higher wear resistance blade you see what happens with the temperature...a few degrees and you will lose -or gain- 1 Rockwell degree easily
 
marrenmiller said:
Isn't INFI a steel + HT protocol?

I'd love to see how much of that steel is hype.
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Then get some and use it! Readily available and fun to use. Even just to try out, it will hold it's value pretty well. Don't like it? Sell it. Break it? Busse will replace it.

midnight flyer said:
An interesting discussion of well thought opinions based on fact/research and knowledge.
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Very true! But I would also add experience (unless you meant that to be assumed). It's difficult to evaluate a steel, especially from different companies, without using and sharpening it. Heat treat plays a huge role. For example, 8cr from a reputable company has been very different for me than a less reputable company.

I don't exactly know what constitutes a super steel. But after gaining some experience and knowledge, I know what I want out of a steel for the various tasks I need a knife for. Some of those steels are considered fancy and expensive. Some are sort of middle of the road on every aspect. Some are specialized like h1. Some are dirt cheap. All have a role in my knife use.
 
craytab said:
Then get some and use it! Readily available and fun to use. Even just to try out, it will hold it's value pretty well. Don't like it? Sell it. Break it? Busse will replace it.
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That's a pretty steep price to pay for a knife I won't use much.
My interests are mainly in the reports of the performance I've heard about on this forum, which range from humdrum to beyond mythical.
 
marrenmiller said:
That's a pretty steep price to pay for a knife I won't use much.
My interests are mainly in the reports of the performance I've heard about on this forum, which range from humdrum to beyond mythical.
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It's not that much. Put $20 away a month and you'll have enough for something in no time. Busse isn't going anywhere! And like I said, if you aren't convinced enough to keep the thing, you can sell it for not much loss.

My point really was to not rely on other people testing a steel for you. Get it and use the knife! Form your own opinion.

If you don't have a use for such a knife, I'm not sure why one would care about this subject. At a certain point, purely academic knife discussion gets pointless. Go cut something!
 
craytab said:
It's not that much. Put $20 away a month and you'll have enough for something in no time. Busse isn't going anywhere! And like I said, if you aren't convinced enough to keep the thing, you can sell it for not much loss.

My point really was to not rely on other people testing a steel for you. Get it and use the knife! Form your own opinion.

If you don't have a use for such a knife, I'm not sure why one would care about this subject. At a certain point, purely academic knife discussion gets pointless. Go cut something!
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I mean... That is a lot, though. Their knives aren't appealing enough to me to drop $4-500, and I generally make all the fixed blades I want anyway. I've been burned enough on "knives that hold their resale value" enough to know I can't count on reselling to recoup costs.

Not sure why you're rejecting academic interest in something like that, especially on an enthusiast forum. How different is it from interest in supercars/airplanes/Hi-Fi equipment/etc that people can't realistically ever afford or practically use?

There's an air of mysticism surrounding seemingly everything Busse does. A little scientific testing never hurt anyone and would go a long way here. I have an engineering background and immensely appreciate such work. All it does is provides data to help inform.
 
All the power to those who not only chat here, perform the manufacture of their own blades and understand the entire process.

I think it is a wonderful bit of knowledge to have.
 
marrenmiller said:
I mean... That is a lot, though. Their knives aren't appealing enough to me to drop $4-500, and I generally make all the fixed blades I want anyway. I've been burned enough on "knives that hold their resale value" enough to know I can't count on reselling to recoup costs.
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Welp, you can get into a busse infi for less than that. Maybe you aren't aware of the busse secondary market. Resale value is not going anywhere. Even with use, the value might even go up.


marrenmiller said:
Not sure why you're rejecting academic interest in something like that, especially on an enthusiast forum. How different is it from interest in supercars/airplanes/Hi-Fi equipment/etc that people can't realistically ever afford or practically use?
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I'm not rejecting academic tests done by others. What I am saying is to truly know how a steel with a given heat treat performs for the tasks you intend, you will need to try it. So, to confirm or deny any hype from a well respected company you would be better off giving that company's product a try.

marrenmiller said:
There's an air of mysticism surrounding seemingly everything Busse does. A little scientific testing never hurt anyone and would go a long way here. I have an engineering background and immensely appreciate such work. All it does is provides data to help inform.
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And you can decide for yourself if the busse mysticism is justified if you try one out.

Scientific testing is great. I'm all for that. However, most of these blade tests we see are far from scientific. They might be interesting and informative but they are not academically science.

I've found that figuring out what steel works for my uses is aided by information gotten here and other places but ultimately, I need to use the steel from a company or maker to decide on my own opinion.
 
craytab said:
Very true! But I would also add experience (unless you meant that to be assumed). It's difficult to evaluate a steel, especially from different companies, without using and sharpening it. Heat treat plays a huge role. For example, 8cr from a reputable company has been very different for me than a less reputable company.
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That is a pretty spot on example. I have had a RAT1 in 8cr since they came out a few years ago. That steel is sooooooft. Really soft. The good news is that the knife is nearly indestructible. But I have had a few Kerhshaw work knives in the same steel that acquitted themselves quite well. But even within a manufacturer like Kershaw, I noticed a difference in the steel performance between Kershaw knives. In these days of global manufacturing (then product badging) and outsourcing of parts (then assembly at another location) you just don't really know what you are going to get.

craytab said:
I don't exactly know what constitutes a super steel. But after gaining some experience and knowledge, I know what I want out of a steel for the various tasks I need a knife for. Some of those steels are considered fancy and expensive. Some are sort of middle of the road on every aspect. Some are specialized like h1. Some are dirt cheap. All have a role in my knife use.
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With you on that one, too. As a funny aspect to this particular thread, I was cleaning out my "watched threads" and had some from 7-8 years ago! Guess what... same discussion on "super steels" and what they are and how to define them. The benchmark back then was 154 of some stripe with rare sightings of other stuff like S110v being tossed in the mix.

Same stuff, different day. Buy what you like within your budget regardless of the "super steel" tag that changes every six months and you should be fine these days with just about any knife steel from a reputable manufacturer or maker.

Robert
 
midnight flyer said:
That is a pretty spot on example. I have had a RAT1 in 8cr since they came out a few years ago. That steel is sooooooft. Really soft. The good news is that the knife is nearly indestructible. But I have had a few Kerhshaw work knives in the same steel that acquitted themselves quite well. But even within a manufacturer like Kershaw, I noticed a difference in the steel performance between Kershaw knives. In these days of global manufacturing (then product badging) and outsourcing of parts (then assembly at another location) you just don't really know what you are going to get.



With you on that one, too. As a funny aspect to this particular thread, I was cleaning out my "watched threads" and had some from 7-8 years ago! Guess what... same discussion on "super steels" and what they are and how to define them. The benchmark back then was 154 of some stripe with rare sightings of other stuff like S110v being tossed in the mix.

Same stuff, different day. Buy what you like within your budget regardless of the "super steel" tag that changes every six months and you should be fine these days with just about any knife steel from a reputable manufacturer or maker.

Robert
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I'll just add to that example with this. Despite the global nature with budget steels, at least with a company like Ontario or Kershaw, if you have a real problem with your knife, you can at least send it for them to have a look. The SRM 8cr I had was awful. Couldn't send that puppy in. Thankfully because of this forum I have learned to buy from better companies. The 8cr and aus8 I own now holds up as expected.

Of course, the "super steels" I also have hold up better. Delta 3v is fantastic.
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midnight flyer said:
Wow... and we were on topic for 74 posts... anymore kind of a record here.

Robert
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Wow. One joke ruins a thread? :rolleyes:
I think its very interesting that Larrin's articles are confirming that Gaston's opinion of CPM "super steels" being garbage for use in knives were based on flawed testing. Certainly they are not good for use as choppers with edge geometry best suited for slicing.
In all likelihood they are not the best steels for chopping, but they certainly do have a place in the realm of knives, just like 1095 and 420J (with proper HT) are still relevant and maybe even more desirable for certain applications.
 
danbot said:
...In all likelihood they are not the best steels for chopping,...
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It really depends on what you consider a super steel. There is no formal definition, but to me super steels are high-tech powder steels. Not all of them make great choppers, for sure, but some do. CPM M4 and Vanadis 4 Extra are regular winners in the BladeSports contests, which includes aggressive chopping by beefy brutes with arms like stumps.

And CPM 3V makes an awesome chopper, much better, in my experience, than more traditional chopper steels like 10XX.
 
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