"Super-steels"?

[unit]

It is amazing that engineers can continue to make "better" steel.

But, for a knife, is it really better? The trade-off is not worth it.

I like my knife to perform, and then expect to (easily) sharpen it. Not possible with the "Super" stuff.

If you were dropped in a jungle in the middle of nowhere, what steel would you want??? (and you didn't have your diamond hones with you).

Trade-Off. That is the key. Not worth it IMHO.

Eric

That is a fair opinion, and I am not inclined to disagree...except to say that not all "super steels" are difficult to sharpen.

However, it is also fair to hold and opposite opinion to yours because many people will never be dropped in the middle of a jungle with their knife...so they are not wrong to not plan for it, and place their emphasis on attributes that are more appropriate to their projected needs

 

[Ankerson]

That is a fair opinion, and I am not inclined to disagree...except to say that not all "super steels" are difficult to sharpen.

However, it is also fair to hold and opposite opinion to yours because many people will never be dropped in the middle of a jungle with their knife...so they are not wrong to not plan for it, and place their emphasis on attributes that are more appropriate to their projected needs

Yeah the nearest thing most people will ever get to a real jungle is watching a movie on TV or a maybe a tree on the side of the road surrounded by concrete.

That said and actually having been in the jungle myself (Double and triple canopy) I would want something that is both stainless and holds an edge so that would be one less thing I have to worry about until I get out.

 

[leghog]

To me "super steels" are like "flavor of the month".

Remember when ATS34 was a new "super steel"?

 

[timberweasel]

Well, I reckon every knife-nut is going to have their own benchmark for what they consider "super steel", and I suppose my own bar is set pretty low by comparison. I consider anything higher than classic carbon steels and 420 series stainless as "super."

When I think of the knives my granddad and his contemporaries might have carried, I'm convinced they used their knives far more frequently and for a lot rougher chores than what we see today. Probably had far more crude sharpening tools/methods too that would eat up the steel. Pretty sure most regular folks wouldn't own more than one or two pocket knives at a time, either; one pocket knife would do all the daily cutting for years on end. Lots of speculation here on my part, but fact is that some of these knives have survived to present--even if the blades are worn down to a splinter.

-Brett

 

[RX-79G]

You can define these steels all different ways, but they all should offer some sort of obvious advantage in edge retention and/or toughness over conventional tool steels.

They get that way by a combination of complex alloys, complex process (eg: CPM) and complex heat treating processes. They are often harder steels to grind as well. Because all of that increases the cost, they had better be higher performing steels than something straightforward like A2.


None of which means that they are the best choice for every type of knife. But some of them should be the best choice for certain specific uses - when being unable to sharpen and/or taking lots of abuse but with a finer edge are requirements.


I disagree that a hard to sharpen knife would be bad "in the jungle". If you can take an expensive knife, you can take a little diamond hone. Not having to use that hone for longer than a simple carbon steel knife is a major advantage, and the diamond hone is very efficient.

 

[Ankerson]

I always get amused when people start talking about the old ways and what people used back then.

I start thinking about that basic logic and how the human race would be NOW if we applied that same logic to everything.

1. No electricity
2. No cars
3. No planes
4. No boats to speak of to travel across the Oceans, the World was flat remember?
5. No Computers
6. No telphones
7. No real Medications like Antibiotics
8. No Steel either, would still be using Bronze most Likely
9. No plumbing, that's indoor plumbing
10. No running water either
11. No air conditioning
12. Might not have fire either depending on how far we go back
13. No houses to speak of, more like shacks or maybe caves

Start thinking about how much the human race has evolved in the past 500 years, or should I say Society in general.

Take away all of those advancements and the human race would have not evolved at all using the same basic logic so we would still be living like they did 5,000 to 30,000 years ago or longer.

And that really is the same basic logic some people are using.

 

[timberweasel]

Glad you were amused, Jim. Just saying that I could get by with very humble steel in a pocket knife, is all.

-Brett

 

[Ankerson]

Glad you were amused, Jim. Just saying that I could get by with very humble steel in a pocket knife, is all.

-Brett

Well people can get by without cars, power and all of those things I listed too.

Just like they did thousands of years ago or more.

That was using YOUR logic.

 

[RX-79G]

I always get amused when people start talking about the old ways and what people used back then.

I start thinking about that basic logic and how the human race would be NOW if we applied that same logic to everything.

1. No electricity
2. No cars
3. No planes
4. No boats to speak of to travel across the Oceans, the World was flat remember?
5. No Computers
6. No telphones
7. No real Medications like Antibiotics
8. No Steel either, would still be using Bronze most Likely
9. No plumbing, that's indoor plumbing
10. No running water either
11. No air conditioning
12. Might not have fire either depending on how far we go back
13. No houses to speak of, more like shacks or maybe caves

Start thinking about how much the human race has evolved in the past 500 years, or should I say Society in general.

Take away all of those advancements and the human race would have not evolved at all using the same basic logic so we would still be living like they did 5,000 to 30,000 years ago or longer.

And that really is the same basic logic some people are using.

Except that we're not talking about agriculture, medicine or transportation. We're talking about a hand tool that has barely changed in 1000 years. Modern steel knives aren't faster, more flexible, lighter, more ergonomic, sharper or anything else than a decently made steel knife from any other period. This conversation is more like about modern horseshoes or cutting edge straw hats.

 

[timberweasel]

Well people can get by without cars, power and all of those things I listed too.

Just like they did thousands of years ago or more.

That was using YOUR logic.

Yep, I reckon you're 100% correct. I was just talking about pocket knives though. Better edge retention, better corrosion resistance, etc. are just... well, better.

-Brett

 

[Ankerson]

Except that we're not talking about agriculture, medicine or transportation. We're talking about a hand tool that has barely changed in 1000 years. Modern steel knives aren't faster, more flexible, lighter, more ergonomic, sharper or anything else than a decently made steel knife from any other period. This conversation is more like about modern horseshoes or cutting edge straw hats.

The point was to point out how ridiculous that type of logic or mindset really is if we applied it to everything across the board.

Broaden the spectrum somewhat.

 

[Ankerson]

Yep, I reckon you're 100% correct. I was just talking about pocket knives though. Better edge retention, better corrosion resistance are just... well, better.

-Brett

I was just pointing out the basic logic or mindset and how things could still be if people never evolved because they stayed in that frame of mind.

 

[Rapt_up]

The more "Super" a steel is, the more time it gets to be fondled on the couch, going on fashion shoots in the woods, or cutting mundane food next to a bottle of single malt and a Rolex. When the new "Super" steel is released, the older less than super steel is put away in the safe for a future sale. Now if the "Super" steel is bought by a brave individual, it may get to cut boxes, strips of paper or even some rope....

LOL I have to say I love super steel knives, BECAUSE I use them so I don't have to spend ages sharpening. If you think that somehow easier sharpening trumps the edge retention of the new leading edge steels is crazy. Instead of a knife that I have to sharpen every time I use it I have a knife that takes a fraction more effort to sharpen, but that only needs sharpening every few weeks for daily users, rather than literally every use, several times a day. I have a 3V camp knife from Big Chris that I used for a week for everything from food prep to batoning my firewood for all my fires. While it wasn't shaving sharp at the end of the week, it was still sharp enough to cut the odd hair from my arm. That is sharper than most "gerber/buck/etc" generic knives are when new.

 

[unit]

Well.....Jim, as you know logic, and a man's choice do not always have to agree

It is really about choices. We are all different, and it is probably wrong for any of us to try and make a choice for anyone else.

If you want to carry a folding piece of knapped flint, be my guest

I have gone full circle and then some and my logic does not even always make sense to me

 

[timberweasel]

I was just pointing out the basic logic or mindset and how things could still be if people never evolved because they stayed in that frame of mind.

We are on the same page, friend. Blows my mind when I think that my cell phone has more processing power than the computers used for the first space missions launched by mankind. Guess I'm easily impressed. Same goes for modern "super-steels."

 

[RX-79G]

The point was to point out how ridiculous that type of logic or mindset really is if we applied it to everything across the board.

Broaden the spectrum somewhat.

I'm not even sure who's post that attitude references. The "old" steel referred to in this thread seems to be ATS-34.

"Cutting" is a technology which has advanced - we use laser, spinning saws, chain saws, water jets and weirder stuff. Metallurgy has also improved. But knives are super old tech that we dress up with some of the metallurgical advances to produce the pinnacle of Middle Ages level cutting technology.

I think the new steels are cool for knives, but the cost to benefit ratio might be a little questionable for people who use computers and ride on bullet trains.


I wonder if any great advances in saddlery are rocking the equestrian industry?

 

[Ankerson]

Well.....Jim, as you know logic, and a man's choice do not always have to agree

It is really about choices. We are all different, and it is probably wrong for any of us to try and make a choice for anyone else.

If you want to carry a folding piece of knapped flint, be my guest

I have gone full circle and then some and my logic does not even always make sense to me

True, but the fact of the matter really is that none of would likely be here right now, I mean living if Society never advanced, the World population would likely be around 1 Billion total or less.

We are on the same page, friend. Blows my mind when I think that my cell phone has more processing power than the computers used for the first space missions launched by mankind. Guess I'm easily impressed. Same goes for modern "super-steels."

Yeah, I like to take someones point of view (Logic) and broaden it to effect things on a large spectrum see if it really makes any since or not.

Thinking outside the box so to speak.

 

[Ankerson]

I'm not even sure who's post that attitude references. The "old" steel referred to in this thread seems to be ATS-34.

"Cutting" is a technology which has advanced - we use laser, spinning saws, chain saws, water jets and weirder stuff. Metallurgy has also improved. But knives are super old tech that we dress up with some of the metallurgical advances to produce the pinnacle of Middle Ages level cutting technology.

I think the new steels are cool for knives, but the cost to benefit ratio might be a little questionable for people who use computers and ride on bullet trains.


I wonder if any great advances in saddlery are rocking the equestrian industry?

It's just the same old argument that older is all that is needed etc that seems to come up quite often.

So if we apply that same basic logic to everything across the board from the beginning.....

Well sounds ridiculous doesn't it?

 

[timberweasel]

Yeah, I like to take someones point of view (Logic) and broaden it to effect things on a large spectrum see if it really makes any since or not.

Sure it does. No disputing the impact of modern innovation on any industry. We live in some pretty darn amazing times and it's hard to imagine what wonders the future may hold.

 

[Ankerson]

Sure it does. No disputing the impact of modern innovation on any industry. We live in some pretty darn amazing times and it's hard to imagine what wonders the future may hold.

Yes we have come a very long way from living in caves and beating meat off of bones with sticks.

But then take the way some people think we would still be doing it today if everyone thought the same way over the years.