Surprising W-2 various quench medium hardness test results: Brine, Houghto-Quench k,

I have been accused of being the most stubborn person one person has ever known and incapable of admitting I am wrong and being insulting and having a mindset befitting a member of the Flat Earth Society capable of stifling the advancement of all of mankind. And if I am not mistaken there were also some negative comments, LOL.

Despite my detractors I think much of the problem is that the written word does not convey attitudes and the persons intention properly and I am not the closed minded villain I have been portrayed as and I actually am liked by most people that know me so I apologize if I have seemed offensive because that was truly not my intention and I know in the passion of the moment I was probably more adamant than I should have been.

But I do believe that one issue has been overlooked from my detractors that feel that I cannot admit I’m wrong and that is that nobody wanted me to be wrong more than I did about the fact that Houghto-Quench® K is incapable of fully hardening W-2 because I had unlike anyone here a financial vested interest in wanting to be wrong.

I paid $265 for 5 gallons of Houghto-Quench® K so I desperately wanted to be proven wrong because now I’m out that money and I’m going to have to have some Parks 50 sent to me from Texas and with the exchange rate, shipping charges, dual sales taxes and brokerage fees I am sure it will be even more.

So I wanted to be wrong more than anyone else wanted me to be but the truth is every test I conducted pointed to the fact that it simply wouldn’t hardening W-2 and my final test where I quenched a piece in 80 ounces of Houghto-Quench® K with agitation to me is indisputable proof that it can’t since even with that the hardness was under 50. I apologize if my detractors object to my attitude but I don’t understand how anyone could see otherwise at this point.

I said I wouldn’t be posting anymore experiments but kuraki was kind enough to send me some Parks 50 and it arrived today so out of gratitude I will post those results in a new thread. I will just be testing it against brine with W-2 because I think the question whether Houghto-Quench® K can quench W-2 has been put to rest which I fear some still disagree about.

Just looking at the Parks compared to Houghto-Quench® K is pretty easy to see why Parks is so much faster as I suspect. Parks is basically clear with a slight yellow tint and seems to have very low viscosity whereas the Houghto-Quench® K looks like dirty used old engine oil with a higher viscosity.

I only have about 16 ounces of Parks so I will use equal amounts of Brine and because of popular demand and I’m curious about the maximum hardness of each I will be agitating. My prediction is they should be pretty close over 65 and maybe 67 and I know I’m not doing Houghto-Quench® K but I have already done that experiment and the result was under 50 so I really don’t see the point in redoing it.

Yesterday I was testing my product from my other favorite forum, Home Distiller, so I am not at 100% today so I will be testing probably within the next two days. If interested I highly recommend that site.

And thanks for your support Ken H, it is appreciated!
 
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Jeff, I'm (and I'm sure many other folks also) are looking forward to your next tests with brine vs Parks 50. Using the small test coupons you've been using I can't see why 16 oz isn't enough because you've not been having any real temp rise.

Your comment:
passion of the moment I was probably more adamant that I should have been.
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is something I do think ALL OF US are guilty of sometimes, and you're being the true Southern Gentleman (you're from the South part of Canada) by admitting it.:congratulatory:

testing my product from my other favorite forum, Home Distiller, so I am not at 100% today
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Not 100%??? that's what "drowning your sorrow" gets you...... not that I've not been guilty of that myself in years gone by :):butterfly:

Ken H>
 
Thanks again for your comments Ken H. I guess us Southern Gentlemen have to stick together, lol....:) Hopefully I will get those tests done tomorrow.
 
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I just found something rather interesting. According to the Houghto-Quench® K data sheet it has a viscosity of 77 but on the Parks website it says that Parks 50 has a viscosity of only 45 and their slower speed oil AAA has a viscosity of 85 so Houghto-Quench® K has a very close viscosity to Parks medium speed oil.

This may explain why I am having so much trouble hardening W-2 with Houghto-Quench® K.

Update:

Actually it looks like the viscosity is not the determining factor in an oils speed because viscosity only affects speed in the final or convection phase which takes place below 600°F after most of the hardening is done.

Here is an interesting article on that: http://www.globalspec.com/learnmore...s_fluids/quenching_oils_heat_treatment_fluids
 
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My gut feeling is viscosity has something to do with it. That may be purely based on the fact that water=fast oil=slow and the viscosity difference between them however.

I'm just tickled to see all of the research, reference to scientific papers, manufacturers documentation, etc, related to heat treating here. When I first wanted to get into knifemaking about 15 years ago, I joined a forum, maybe this one, maybe another, I can't recall. And all the discussion was about voodoo wives tales, "edge packing" and secret squirrel heat treat methods with no supporting data. It made me, as someone who heat treated tooling of various materials as part of my job, boggle my eyes and log off.

Now it's "test your results," and "use the proper quench" and PID controlled furnaces. I love it.
 
Just to be a picky SOB, the actual hardening may not have even started at 600 F. The formation of the hard phase of steel, martensite, doesn't usually start until below 500 or even less for steels typically used in knives. This the need for a slow cooling rate in that temperature range for quench oils. This is when the transformations in the steel are most stressful and cracking most likely.
 
Also, looking at the Quench K data sheet, is says the oil CAN be used up to 180°F, but the 7-9 second nickel ball speed reading was taken at room temp of 80°F. I would try the oil at room temp, because that is what Houghton says is the 7-9 second range. Going above or below that temp may screw up the nickel ball speed.

Pretty amazing that the 1095 hardens in the oil, but the W2 needs brine. They are essentially identical steels, they both get the same HT and quench medium.

When you get the P50, you will note that it also CAN be used in the 130°F range, but the best quench temp for P50 is actually room temp, maybe slightly above. I use the same W2, 1/8" thick, normalized and cycled, P50 quench, 66+ HRC post quench, every time. Others have had serious serious issues with this W2. 1900°F normalizing temp was the only thing that would get it to harden properly. Keep that in mind, Jeff. This W2 can have issues.
 
I look forward to the P50 test.

You've concluded that the K oil can't harden W2 sufficiently. I'd like to respectfully and kindly point out that your conclusion is a bit overreaching. What you know is that your particular pieces of W2 won't harden in the K oil. The time to make a blanket statement about all W2 steel is when you've bought several pieces from several different origin mills or heat batches.
 
Don Hanson III said:
1095 usually has around .40% manganese & W2 around .20%. Making W2 much shallower hardening.
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That is an excellent observation that I should have known already. I was thinking they both had identical Mn counts, but you have the straight dope, as usual, Don! Thanks for that education. And you're dead right about .2 Mn being much more shallow hardening than .4 Mn. There isn't much difference there, .2 that's all, but it does make a difference!
 
I appreciate that observation also because it explains why Houghto-Quench® K can harden 1095 but not my piece of W2 and makes sense of my results.
 
Jeff, I came late to this party but I want to thank you for your careful testing and quantified results. Many years ago I trained as a scientist and I still believe in controlling the variables and recording the results. I started my journey into knife making fairly recently but I did it under the watchful eye of a master who who is not member of this forum. My mentor has years of quantitative data and he has a recipe that will consistently produce blades capable of far surpassing the ABS tests. I followed his recipe on the very first blade I ever forged and it was awesome. His methods are not secret but I would point out that his steel ALL comes from his personal stash which was obtained direct from the mill years ago. There is no question of variability between one piece of steel and another. Second ALL his quench oil comes from the same batch which was obtained years ago. Both his steel and his quench oil are exactly the same year after year. Not everybody can or wants to buy thousands of pounds of steel and hundreds of gallons of oil but my mentor made his commitment to controlling those variables year ago, and it has paid off by allowing him to develop a recipe that will produce consistent results.

Final comment, when studying with my mentor the quench tank never had more than a quart of oil in it. We did mildly agitate but you would have a hard time convincing me that a large volume of quenchant is required.
 
Thank you samuraistuart it’s nice to know people got something out of my efforts.

Well RedFury I am glad you came late to the party as opposed to not at all but I certainly could have used your opinion when I was being raked over the coals for my methods and conclusions but better late than never, LOL.

It really means a lot being validated by someone with scientific training. I do admire your master’s extreme vigilance with consistency of materials and although I am not that dedicated since this is a hobby I am just beginning I am trying to a lesser degree to replicate his elimination of variables and agree with it’s importance. And I do see the importance of keeping quantitative data as I have bought a hardbound book myself that I am putting all my results in.

I’m sure you are well aware from reading this thread all the grief I took over quench oil volume and I could not understand how people thought it was so vital when my test quench oil didn’t even rise 2°F. Logic just dictated to me it was irrelevant and I have to admit it’s really gratifying to read that your mentor never uses more than a quart of oil because what I wasn’t going to admit here is that since kuraki sent me a quart of Parks 50 for testing I was going to try and use that to make a knife and now with your assurance I think that’s a pretty reasonable thing to do so thank you for that. I really appreciate your insights and validation.
 
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