Surprising W-2 various quench medium hardness test results: Brine, Houghto-Quench k,

[Jeff the Millwright]

Though it might not fit into your controlled scientific process, it would seem to me to make sense to try to harden your W2 in a large volume of K quench with agitation. Basically redo your experiment above but with K quench. You were getting hardened in brine, so don't suprise me you didn't get anything different trying it again. Brine is a very fast quench, on the border of being too fast.

Your example of four sprinters could be off if one was The Jamaican guy Bolt, if he had ankle weights on, he would still bet most of us here. He is the brine.

Cody I honestly cannot comprehend how you could think that the volume of quenchant could make any difference on the hardness with such tiny test pieces especially since the temperature rises less than 2°F after quenching.

And my last experiment showed with brine that agitating makes no difference at all. And I do understand your Bolt point that although brine doesn’t need it Houghto-Quench® K might benefit from agitation. And if I was only losing a point or two in hardness using Houghto-Quench® K I could see that it might have a significant influence but the fact my W-2 samples with Houghto-Quench® K are around 12 points below brine I think the conclusion that this oil isn’t up to the job with W-2 is conclusive.

I really don’t understand how anyone could still not come to that conclusion with all the evidence I have presented. The fact that you may be right in my mind is so infinitesimal I feel testing it would be a complete waste of time and effort and material but I am curious what others think. If a majority of people want that last test I will do it to finally put this to rest but I really think it would be a complete waste of time and that a bigger container and agitation would have little or no influence on W-2 with Houghto-Quench® K.

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

I'd LOVE to send you a gallon of Parks 50, but don't have any. I think you got my name mixed up with somebody else. I tried to send you a msg via email or PM, but didn't find anything listed for you.

I'm sure agitation is less important on small test coupons than on a large blade.

Have you considered putting a wire thru a hole to handle the coupon with so the tongs would not affect the coupon at all?

Ken H>

Sorry Ken I was mistaken it is kuraki who is sending me some Parks 50 which I greatly appreciate.

 

[Cody Hofsommer]

I honestly dont know how it would make a difference, but what I do know is that lots of good knife makers have suggested this, and I know that W2 will harden in veggie oil, and not just brine or parks50. You will try all kinds of experiments, just not ones that are suggested.

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and in practice, in practice there is." Someone unknown to me said that.

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

I honestly dont know how it would make a difference, but what I do know is that lots of good knife makers have suggested this, and I know that W2 will harden in veggie oil, and not just brine or parks50. You will try all kinds of experiments, just not ones that are suggested.

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and in practice, in practice there is." Someone unknown to me said that.

I agree with one thing Cody I don’t know how a larger volume of oil would make a difference either which is why I don’t see the point of doing the experiment. The fact that Brine can quench to 66 in a small container tells me that’s all that is needed and the fact that the temperature rises less than 2°F to me is conclusive proof. And if agitation isn’t needed for brine why would I need it for Houghto-Quench® K and you really think it’s going to make a 12 point difference? I grant you may be a point or two but I even doubt that.

And I just don’t know how to respond to your assertion that veggie oil will harden W-2 because if there is one thing that is generally agreed on this site it is that W-2 and 1095 need a fast oil in the 7 to 9 second range. I think that is probably one of the most generally accepted rules on this site and besides my initial test in this thread included canola oil and the maximum hardness was only 40 so how you can assert that is beyond my comprehension.

And I think your assertion that I will not do suggested tests is equally felonious. My last test was done because it was asked that I try to re-harden the W-2 samples with brine that Houghto-Quench® K could not fully harden to prove that the problem was not in the steel and exactly as I predicted they fully harden. And also in my last test I examined whether agitating or not had any effect and that was also because people were suspecting it as a cause so that was done also by request.

It’s easy to sit behind a computer screen and demand every possible variable be examined but I have a life and a real job and I don’t have endless time to eliminate every suggested variable. I have done a few now despite your false claim that were suggested to me when I was sure it was a waste of my time and I was right.

I am going to do a test to finally put this silliness to rest about quench vessel size and agitation and I right now I'm going to say I told you so because I think anybody with a logical mind already knows the results. After that I am going to do what I deem important and I will acknowledge intelligent logical suggestions and ignore the ones I feel are a waste of my time.

 

[S.Alexander]

I agree with one thing Cody I don’t know how a larger volume of oil would make a difference either which is why I don’t see the point of doing the experiment. The fact that Brine can quench to 66 in a small container tells me that’s all that is needed and the fact that the temperature rises less than 2°F to me is conclusive proof. And if agitation isn’t needed for brine why would I need it for Houghto-Quench® K and you really think it’s going to make a 12 point difference? I grant you may be a point or two but I even doubt that.

And I just don’t know how to respond to your assertion that veggie oil will harden W-2 because if there is one thing that is generally agreed on this site it is that W-2 and 1095 need a fast oil in the 7 to 9 second range. I think that is probably one of the most generally accepted rules on this site and besides my initial test in this thread included canola oil and the maximum hardness was only 40 so how you can assert that is beyond my comprehension.

And I think your assertion that I will not do suggested tests is equally felonious. My last test was done because it was asked that I try to re-harden the W-2 samples with brine that Houghto-Quench® K could not fully harden to prove that the problem was not in the steel and exactly as I predicted they fully harden. And also in my last test I examined whether agitating or not had any effect and that was also because people were suspecting it as a cause so that was done also by request.

It’s easy to sit behind a computer screen and demand every possible variable be examined but I have a life and a real job and I don’t have endless time to eliminate every suggested variable. I have done a few now despite your false claim that were suggested to me when I was sure it was a waste of my time and I was right.

I am going to do a test to finally put this silliness to rest about quench vessel size and agitation and I right now I'm going to say I told you so because I think anybody with a logical mind already knows the results. After that I am going to do what I deem important and I will acknowledge intelligent logical suggestions and ignore the ones I feel are a waste of my time.

You came into shoptalk with a problem. You have been given multiple possible solutions by us. That's the nature of shoptalk. Nobody is demanding that you do anything. You can do whatever you want, including brine quenching your W2 blades.

To infer that you, or the people who agree with you are the only logical people in this conversation, is insulting.

Do yourself a favor and quit while you're ahead.

 

[Ken H>]

Shane, I don't think Jeff is just trying to be argumentative, but is honestly trying to determine the problems he's having. I think Jeff is trying to understand why some of the things suggested could possibly make a difference.

Jeff, One thing to consider about agitation in brine vs Parks 50 is perhaps the vapor barrier formed is more with Parks 50 than with Brine. If I remember correctly, the purpose of the salt in water is so the vapor barrier is MUCH less with brine than just water.

Now, please allow me to add - I am NOT an expert, never used Parks 50 or any other "proper" quenchant other than brine and canola oil.

Ken H>

 

[Larrin]

Why are the indentations so close to the edge and to each other? You should be at least two diameters apart from the edge and the last reading. That's not going to fix your problem but to have reliable data you should use proper test methods. You may want to find the ASTM guidelines for Rockwell testing to find other steps you want to fix.

 

[Kentucky]

. If I remember correctly, the purpose of the salt in water is so the vapor barrier is MUCH less with brine than just water.


Ken H>

that is the reason..It helps to break up the vapor jacket.

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

To finally put this quenchant volume and agitation controversy to bed once and for all I did a test. I took two pieces of W-2 quenched one in an 80 ounce jar of Houghto-Quench® K in which I did agitate and a second sample in a two ounce jar of the same quenchant without agitating. Even though I have done all my tests in 16 ounce jars I used a two ounce jar to drive home the point that volume really doesn’t matter enough to affect my tests.

I admit I was wrong I said I didn’t think there would be any difference or maybe a point or two but in fact there was a two or three point difference which considering the hardening didn’t even get to 50 is completely arbitrary.

If people can’t accept that Houghto-Quench® K can’t quench W-2 I can live with that because I feel the proof is indisputable and in my mind the case is closed but if people disagree that’s your right.

 

[Natlek]

................

To prevent steam bubbles forming soft spots, a water quenching bath should be agitated.

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

You came into shoptalk with a problem. You have been given multiple possible solutions by us. That's the nature of shoptalk. Nobody is demanding that you do anything. You can do whatever you want, including brine quenching your W2 blades.

To infer that you, or the people who agree with you are the only logical people in this conversation, is insulting.

Do yourself a favor and quit while you're ahead.

Why don’t you do us all a favor and stop reading and posting in my thread. No one is forcing you to read what I have to say and my experiments and no one is forcing you to post here. In fact after looking over my entire thread there are only two people that have an issue with me, you and Cody Hodsommer.

Over 2000 people have read this thread so obviously people are getting some benefit out of it and yet you two are the only ones disrupting it. Why don’t you do us all a favor including yourself and just go away because I know I would appreciate it and I think others would too.

I have been in the construction trades for almost 30 years and I can retire in about a year and I know that you can have a job with 20 great guys but you get two difficult people and they ruin it for everybody so please just go away.

And when I read posts claiming that “veggie” oil works great with W-2 I think I have every right to consider that illogical but if to you that makes sense more power to you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's usually the first person who runs out of ideas that resorts to threats.

 

[Natlek]

................

...................

The water adjacent to the hot steel vaporizes, and there is no direct contact of the water with the steel. This slows down cooling until the bubbles break and allow water contact with the hot steel. As the water contacts and boils, a great amount of heat is removed from the steel. With good agitation, bubbles can be prevented from sticking to the steel, and thereby prevent soft spots.

Salt Water: Salt water is a more rapid quench medium than plain water because the bubbles are broken easily and allow for rapid cooling of the part.

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

I don’t want to leave the impression Natlek that I feel agitation isn’t worthwhile because obviously from my last test I gained a couple of points so it is worthwhile. My point was that for my tests it really didn’t make a difference because the Houghto-Quench® K was so inadequate doing it or not didn’t make or break it as a viable oil for W-2.

 

[Cody Hofsommer]

I have no issue with you, none! I was just trying to help sorry that I came off rude. I will bow out and wish you the best.

 

[me2]

There are some other kinks to be worked out. Brine worked so we can cross that one of the list. However, cooking oils (canola, olive, peanut) should get much higher than they are, as should the Houghton quenchant. They won't give max hardness, but 58 to 60 or better should be achievable. Check bp-outdoors on YouTube for a video on this same subject. Brine and water gave the same as your brine test. Peanut and olive oil reached 63. Only motor oil was near the numbers you're seeing on the oils (40+/-).

 

[S.Alexander]

Why don’t you do us all a favor and stop reading and posting in my thread. No one is forcing you to read what I have to say and my experiments and no one is forcing you to post here. In fact after looking over my entire thread there are only two people that have an issue with me, you and Cody Hodsommer.

Over 2000 people have read this thread so obviously people are getting some benefit out of it and yet you two are the only ones disrupting it. Why don’t you do us all a favor including yourself and just go away because I know I would appreciate it and I think others would too.

I have been in the construction trades for almost 30 years and I can retire in about a year and I know that you can have a job with 20 great guys but you get two difficult people and they ruin it for everybody so please just go away.

And when I read posts claiming that “veggie” oil works great with W-2 I think I have every right to consider that illogical but if to you that makes sense more power to you. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's usually the first person who runs out of ideas that resorts to threats.

I wasn't trying to disrupt anything. I was trying to add to your discussion. You don't like dissenting opinions though... I get that now.

Have a nice day :thumbup:

 

[P.Brewster]

FYI I think your quenchant volume is in accordance with Houghton recommendations of 1 gallon quenchant per 1 pound of load. http://www.houghtonheattreat.com/pdf/tech-tips/Technical Bulletin - Sizing Quench Tanks.pdf

If you feel so inclined, perhaps try the K again with significant agitation - for example, a drill-mounted paint mixer that is set to run.

 

[Alfazulu]

Whether you're wrong or right, I've never seen anyone so unwilling to even entertain other possible explanations. You are falling victim to a VERY common problem in scientific testing. You're allowing your hypothesis to drive your conclusions instead of the other way around. You are making conclusions that are not supported by your testing procedure or your results. In your early testing, you did NOTHING to test whether the volume of quenchant or agitation affected the results. However, for FOUR PAGES OF ARGUING, you absolutely KNEW you were right. And then you tested it, and were wrong. You said it would make ZERO difference, and it made a quantifiable difference. You should learn from that, but you didn't.

You then claimed that it was not enough of a difference, so you were still right. Attitudes like that are why it took humanity so long to realize that the Earth was not the center of the Universe, or that the Earth was not flat. When dissenting ideas are shut down without testing or proof, that is not science. The most important aspect of science is that it is never afraid to be wrong! If you're afraid to be wrong, you are doing the wrong thing by trying to be scientific. Shutting down others' ideas without test data to discount them is dangerous and fallacious. I'm not going to get into this debate beyond this one comment, but this has been ludicrous. I think the reason most people are getting irritated by this is because it's a public forum and resource, and you're acting scientific without actually being so.

 

[Jeff the Millwright]

Thank you Alfazulu for your post because it really solidified in my mind that there is no point to further posting of my tests out here because some people see what they want and ignore the facts just like you did.

First off I never said agitation or volume of quenchant would make ZERO difference, if you would have read carefully I conceded it may make one or two points difference but I thought probably nothing based on my brine agitation experiment when in fact it made two or three points difference and that was testing with just 2 ounces of quenchant not the 16 ounces I used in my tests so I was off by one point so what I argued as you say for four pages was essentially absolutely correct but by one hardness point.

And as I said that difference is meaningless when you consider that the hardness was still under 50 and you couldn’t make a knife from it so my assertion was absolutely correct that it was a complete waste of time to do that experiment just as the evidence suggested it would be. My conclusion was that Houghto-Quench® K is not capable of quenching W2 and this unnecessary experiment you invest so much gravitas in is meaningless to that assertion and that is why I rightly argued for four pages and can find nil validity to your argument.

I assure you that your accusation that I cannot admit I am wrong couldn’t be farther from the truth. I am sure this will inflame those that already don’t like me but the truth is I am simply usually right alot more than I am wrong. I been in the construction trades for almost 30 years and all we do is experiments like this trying to find the quickest and easiest way to do something and trying to solve problems and when supervisors have a critical job that needs to be done right I am usually one of the ones that is called on because they know if they leave me alone and let me do things my way they will get the results they want. It’s not that I can’t admit I’m wrong it’s that I’m usually not and I actually enjoy being wrong because it's an opportunity to learn and keeps life interesting. Like me or hate me that’s the reality of where I’m coming so if you think I can’t admit I’m wrong once again you’re dead wrong, LOL.

If people think I’m wrong that Houghto-Quench® K will quench W-2 with more vigorous agitation and an aquarium size quench tank please do what I did go out and buy 5 gallons and waste $265. I was out here trying to help people and save them the grief and expense I went through and instead of being appreciated I’m condemned for not admitting I’m wrong when I’m not. Or better still get some "veggie" oil as some suggest.

I wanted to give back to this community by sharing my tests because I have equipment that most people don’t and I naively thought it would be an enjoyable exchange of ideas but I have a good job and a good pension waiting for me and this is just a hobby so I really have nothing to gain by continuing to post my results with the grief I'm getting from a few. Good luck to everybody.

 

[Ken H>]

I naively thought it would be an enjoyable exchange of ideas

Jeff, I do think most of us (many who don't post as well as those that do post) have enjoyed your tests and have learned things. I KNOW I have learned a few things from this thread, so PLEASE don't stop posting.

One thing I would like to comment on is your statement:

in fact it made two or three points difference and that was testing with just 2 ounces of quenchant

I'm not sure just 2 oz of quenchant is enough for it to do it's job, regardless of size of test coupon. The 16 oz is bordering on small size for a usable coupon, but 2 oz???

One thing to learn, GOT TO HAVE A THICK SKIN to post in a lot of forums. Stacy does a pretty good job of keeping this forum civil, and we all appreciate his (as well as the other moderators) work.

Ken H>