Survival, "Bushcraft," and "Primitive Living Skills..." your ideas on differences...

[Echo4v]

To me (and this is just my opinion) survival is about getting by until you get out, bushcraft is about being comfortable in the woods. By comfortable I don't mean you build a cabin and start stocking it with carved furniture and utinsils I mean you aren't worried because you know you can make or find whatever you need in your surroundings.

James Beckworth ( a black mountain man who was adopted and eventually became a Crow war chief) was once quoted as saying the only thing a man needs to survive is a knife. To walk into the wilderness with nothing but a knife and be that comfortable about it is what bushcraft is all about to me.

As far as the primitive meets modern methods of firestarting goes how often do you think trappers and native americans made fire with a bow and drill? I would almost garuantee everyone of them knew how but they all switched to flint and steel when it became available. I've even read accounts of fires being started by firing a muzzle loader with a piece of cloth in the barrel, the cloth would catch fire and that would be used to light tender. Just as they switched to steel traps when they had them.

For me, I want to learn bushcraft because the more I know the less I have to carry and the more enjoyable my time in the woods becomes. I think survival is only the first step in bushcraft and bushcraft should be about so much more than not freezing to death.

I guess the best way I can sum up what I'm trying to say is Les Stroud survives but, Native Americans and mountain men ( and my grandfather) display bushcraft. To the bushcrafters survival is not really a consideration, they know they will survive their time in the woods, they are more concerned with enjoying themselves while in the woods.

David

 

[fleegs]

My opinion is that "bushcraft" is a sub category of a "survivalist".

So depending on what form of survival you are talking about they can be the same or very opposite.


fleegs

 

[Don Rearic]

A think this started off as a great thread, but is now turning into a which knife thread (not that there's anything wrong with that) but I think one's choice of blade is almost irrelevant in regards to this conversation...if you can get it to do what you want than it works....

No, it's not turning into a "which knife" thread. You have to admit, look at all the threads that have "Bushcraft" in it! "Bushcraft, this, that and the other" and many threads with "Bushcraft Knife" in it.

If you found value in the thread to begin with, you still should. The thread can be what everyone wants it to be, it doesn't just have to be about knives and I never intended it to be but it would be foolish to not ask the question about that.

To me (and this is just my opinion) survival is about getting by until you get out, bushcraft is about being comfortable in the woods. By comfortable I don't mean you build a cabin and start stocking it with carved furniture and utinsils I mean you aren't worried because you know you can make or find whatever you need in your surroundings.

That is hitting on what I am interested in. I want people to define it and give it a shape instead of just saying it.

As far as the primitive meets modern methods of firestarting goes how often do you think trappers and native americans made fire with a bow and drill? I would almost garuantee everyone of them knew how but they all switched to flint and steel when it became available. I've even read accounts of fires being started by firing a muzzle loader with a piece of cloth in the barrel, the cloth would catch fire and that would be used to light tender. Just as they switched to steel traps when they had them.

I am in the same camp as you, I think most of the Mountain Men and Indians, etc., would chunk the chert and iron and fire-bow and drill in favor of the modern ferrocerium rods, etc. Just as they would chunk a lot of other stuff.

I think there are also exceptions to this as well, while they might embrace modern steel traps, I think they would have kept snares just as they would have kept wool and not necessarily went completely over to synthetics, etc.

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

Some people interchange them, but to me here's the differences:

Survival: Learning how to stay alive until you are found or can get yourself out. Usually the former.

Bushcraft: Mors Kochanski. Making things from natural resources with the use of some modern equipment: knife, axe, etc...this is the one I practice.

Primitive Living Skills: John and Geri McPhereson. In the woods with NOTHING but your bare hands. No knife, no axe, just you and the land. This probably the best type of training.

 

[tonym]

I am with Riley on this one. I think a seasoned Bushcraft person will be comfortable in the outdoors for any extended period of time. He can make various long lasting shelters, tools, and utensils to make the best of what nature has to offer him. He can also find and procure food. With all these skills a seasoned bushcrafter will not survive but thrive in an outdoor setting.

A survivalist to me will take things 1 day at a time and prepare himself for either rescue or walking out as quickly as possible. He can make fire, shelter, find water, and find basic nutrition. Whether it is plants, bugs, or even a squirrel.

In terms of a knife; I think a survival knife is any knife that will help you make it out. I would tend to want something big enough to chop and split wood, and light enough to carve with as well.

A bushcraft knife is more of a whittler that is light and easy on the hands. It will be comfortable for extensive use. Most of the Bushcraft guru's I have seen always have a good axe for heavier use.

I doubt I will ever become a seasoned bushcrafter, but I do enjoy practicing, allthough its maybe once or twice every two weeks. So your not affending me by the word hobby, cause that is kind of what it is for me.

 

[Cliff Nieporte]

To me,Bushcraft is more of a hobby. An enjoyable hobby .
Something that you intentionally go outside & do.

Whereas Survival can be a matter of life or death & most likely not very enjoyable & probably NOT something you would set out to experience.

There are certainly some overlapping skills with both of them.

Cliff

 

[Don Rearic]

Some people interchange them, but to me here's the differences:

Survival: Learning how to stay alive until you are found or can get yourself out. Usually the former.

Except for the long-term survival angle of some type of really catastrophic event. Then, it might not be about being found or getting out but simply enduring, i.e. surviving.

Bushcraft: Mors Kochanski. Making things from natural resources with the use of some modern equipment: knife, axe, etc...this is the one I practice.

I am close to this and I have simply called it "survival" all of my life. I remain unconvinced that I was somehow wrong about that. Terminology changes with the times.

Primitive Living Skills: John and Geri McPhereson. In the woods with NOTHING but your bare hands. No knife, no axe, just you and the land. This probably the best type of training.

I am absolutely positive that this type of training would have some value but the way most people worship it I consider it a hobby and in some circles, almost a religion with its own rigidity, dogma, etc.

To me, Bushcraft is more of a hobby. An enjoyable hobby. Something that you intentionally go outside & do.

Whereas Survival can be a matter of life or death & most likely not very enjoyable & probably NOT something you would set out to experience.

There are certainly some overlapping skills with both of them.

Cliff

Cliff,

I teeter! I'm somewhere between you and Echo, I reckon. But I do consider a lot of the stuff that is put forth as diehard survival information is basically hobbyist rhetoric.

And I don't necessarily mean in this forum, but in other places I have visited.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

I think there's overlap, particularly with bushcraft and primitive living skills, but here's how I think of them:

Survival: Is gear-oriented with a limited skill set. Simply, it's having the gear you need to survive a given situation or environment for a specific time period. IMO, a survival kit has what you need, not what you need to make what you need. For instance, in my kind of survival kit, you'll carry rations, not fishing gear. Your object is to survive, and escape the situation, all of my attention would be on that, not fishing, snaring, etc food along the way.

Bushcraft: is mostly a skillset which involves mostly individual living in a wilderness setting with a limited set of gear, and the knowledge to use that limited set of gear to get/make whatever else you need.

Primitive Living skills: Is more about long term living without the use of modern conveniences. Now, I don't consider a stainless knife, or Fiskars axe to be modern conveniences, a knife is a knife, an axe is an axe, both are as old as man. I mean you won't have or be using electricity, chainsaws, etc. Some bushcraft skills would be used, especially axe and saw work, and basic shelter making before a more permanent shelter is built. In short, I see primitive living in a stationary manner, whereas a bushcrafter is more mobile, and typically does not take a long family and such.

A bushcraft knife, IMO, is a knife well suited to certain chores vital to the bushcrafter. It is NOT a do-all knife, it is a knife dedicated to specific tasks and will be carried with other tools (notably a big chopper like an axe, kukri or machete, and possibly skinning and fileting knives).

A survival knife, on the other hand, is intended as a single tool, and as such needs to be a do-all tool. Meaning it will be between the bushcrafter and big chopper in size, not well suited to very fine or very heavy chores, but able to do both.

 

[Don Rearic]

So, how would you figure someone to be prepping with Thompson Steel Snares and ready-made brass snares with an eyelet all along with raw brass and steel wire. As well as fishing gear but not to include rod and reel along with gill nets and devices like Speedhooks, all of which I have...?

 

[aggopian]

The survivalist has a stockpile of items required to survive. He will require a secure location to store his food, ammo, etc and a means to defend it. (hungry people can be irrational) He will most likely surround himself with like minded people until his home base resembles a military compound. Kudos for him.

The Bushcrafter has few items, Knife, fire kit and his wits. He can travel fast and light and doesnt have much to protect. More than likely he will also surround himself with like minded people. Safety in numbers, sharing of duties etc. Kudos also.

That being said I do not believe a "survivalist" would be stupid enough to ignore bushcrafting, Nor would a "bushcrafter" ignore all technology. We take what we need and use whats available.

 

[hollowdweller]

I'd class myself as a nature enthusiast.

I guess as far as survival I'm not as much into surviving as being prepared up to a point in case there was some sort of situation you'd have to survive.

I like the whole idea of Bushcraft not so much to make everything yourself but more from the aspect of maybe lightweight. The Mors Kochanski thing "the more you know the less you need" I'm carrying a tent but if I can save some weight cooking over a fire, or foraging for food then that's cool.

:thumbup:

 

[Don Rearic]

The survivalist has a stockpile of items required to survive. He will require a secure location to store his food, ammo, etc and a means to defend it. (hungry people can be irrational) He will most likely surround himself with like minded people until his home base resembles a military compound. Kudos for him.

The Bushcrafter has few items, Knife, fire kit and his wits. He can travel fast and light and doesnt have much to protect. More than likely he will also surround himself with like minded people. Safety in numbers, sharing of duties etc. Kudos also.

That being said I do not believe a "survivalist" would be stupid enough to ignore bushcrafting, Nor would a "bushcrafter" ignore all technology. We take what we need and use whats available.

Well, you're sure getting closer to what I think I am "into."

 

[Rockywolf]

I feel the word hobby suits my relationship with bushcraft too. I tell people I am into "survival training", because it gives them a quicker understanding of what I like than, "bushcraft" or "primitive living".

Basically, I just want them to shut the heck up about why I have a small fixed blade and PSK in my front pocket, a BSA hotspark and flashlight on my keychain, and a larger PSK in my jacket pocket. And why do I want that, you ask? Because they don't understand and when most people don't get it, they ridicule instead of trying to learn.

I am trying to learn the primitive/bushcraft skills so IF necessary, I can (will) survive. And my sons with me. If that means good gear-terrific, bring it on! I think the mountain men would be into whatever is functional, durable, i.e. long-lasting and repeatedly reliable.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

So, how would you figure someone to be prepping with Thompson Steel Snares and ready-made brass snares with an eyelet all along with raw brass and steel wire. As well as fishing gear but not to include rod and reel along with gill nets and devices like Speedhooks, all of which I have...?

I'd classify that mostly along the primitive living line. Modern equipment, but it's newer versions of mostly age-old stuff.

 

[Don Rearic]

I'd classify that mostly along the primitive living line. Modern equipment, but it's newer versions of mostly age-old stuff.

That's an interesting take on what I do. I never would have classified it as such. Really interesting.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Well, I said that's the closest to the three things you asked about

If I can add a fourth, I'd call it "backwoodsman" skills/gear.
You can thank me later for the new can of worms I just opened.

 

[Don Rearic]

If I can add a fourth, I'd call it "backwoodsman" skills/gear.
You can thank me later for the new can of worms I just opened.

I generally enjoy your posts but I must say you have now struck me constipated and I don't know what to say.

 

[Bushman5]

to me:

Bushcraft to me is skills that make camping/hiking etc a lot of fun, simpler and more comfortable, and that is a fun hobby that i get great pleasure from. To some extent Bushcraft can make Survival more comfortable once the immediate basic Survival needs are taken care of and I have time while waiting for rescue. Personally, i feel that Survival is an all out immediate needs situation where i dont care how smoothly trimmed my shelter poles are, or how fancy the brush bed is, or how perfect the fire is made and maintained etc etc etc. BUT if i have the time I will dabble in Bushcraft while in a Survival situation.

example: I'm not going to waste time in BC cold wet weather building a debris hut (i made a thread on this a while back) . I'm going to pull out the tarp, string it up and light my fire NOW!. However, on the weekend while out for a hike i will take the time to build a debris shelter and sleep in it overnight. If in a LONG TERM survival situ, i will build a debris hut, as i have the time to do so. etc etc etc etc


Primitive Living to me is recreating the mountain man/caveman etc style of dress, fire starting, skills, shelter etc. It is also a fun hobby but in a Survival situation i dont have time or energy to play caveman or 1800's mountain man. This might offend people I dont care.

 

[Don Rearic]

Primitive Living to me is recreating the mountain man/caveman etc style of dress, fire starting, skills, shelter etc. It is also a fun hobby but in a Survival situation i dont have time or energy to play caveman or 1800's mountain man. This might offend people I dont care.

Yeah, I think there is some stuff I want to know in that realm but by and large I think a lot of it is B.S. and a lot of people preaching it online have tweetybirds and shit flying around their head.

 

[Elen]

My opinions?

Survival: whatever you have to do to survive a situation that clearly threatens to end your life. A survival situation is a situation you want to avoid getting into, and when you are in one, a situation that you want to get out of as quickly as possible. Survival skills include a wide range of stuff to get you out of places where you will probably get killed, to keep you alive in places where you can't or don't want to remain indefinitely, and to kill living things that want to kill you or make decent food. A survival knife as the label is typically used is a compromise tool, a tough, largeish knife designed to do more than just usual knife tasks - the idea being, I suppose, that you don't happen to have an axe but you do get to bring a huge knife. If you ask me, any decently built fixed blade makes for a decent "survival knife".

Bushcraft: The craft or art of being able to live in decent comfort outside the urban centers of modern "civilization", in the uninhabited natural areas still left on the earth. Exactly the opposite of survival in a sense, although the same skills come in very useful. Survival situations are something you want to avoid; situations where you can use your bushcraft skills are situations that you actively seek for relaxation or just variety. One can become the other: sometimes a backpacking trip goes south, and turns into a survival situation. Later, it can turn back into something else when you get to safer places and a better situation. Bushcraft skills contain everything needed and useful to living outside modern civilization: hunting, shelter building, firecraft, knowledge of biology as in plants and animals and the natural environment, trapping, making clothing and eating utensils and tools and even rudimentary cabins. Bushcraft is a lot of things. A good bushcraft knife is any knife that you can use for precision woodwork as well as skinning. Larger tasks can be handled by an axe, or if you're so inclined, another, larger knife. To some people bushcraft is walking 5 miles off the nearest house and setting up a fire to make some tea while whittling on a few sticks before going back home. But I don't use the word in that sense. I don't have anything against those that do use it in that sense, though.

Primitive living skills: Exactly the same as bushcraft, except a much more understandable term, but not nearly as catchy and "sane" sounding.

All of this stuff is connected: bushcraft skills are survival skills, too.