Survival, "Bushcraft," and "Primitive Living Skills..." your ideas on differences...

[Zaner01]

Well, here's a subject close to my heart ... I was just thinking about this the other day.

Cpl Punishment already clearly laid out the distinction between survival, bushcraft and primitive living mindsets. But I have one small beef with his definition, which I'll get into shortly.

In general, I have a beef with bushcraft and with primitive living -- not a serious beef, more of a quibble. First, I do agree that these skills are worth developing, and interesting in themselves. My beef only comes up when people blur the lines between bushcraft, which is about living outdoors, and survival, which is about not dying in an emergency. When we mistake one for the other, we put the emphasis on the wrong skills, and that's potentially dangerous.

Instead of "survival situation," which I think conjures up wild and unlikely scenarios (just how do I end up in the mountains with nothing but a shoelace and a broken knife blade?), I like the word "emergency."

When you talk about emergencies, then you start to think about the skills that matter. An emergency often means someone is hurt, perhaps seriously; how are your wilderness first aid skills? Are you prepared to treat hypothermia, the number one killer? Can you make a good judgment about when to set off your PLB, vs. evacuate the casualty yourself? Do you know what makes a suitable landing area for a helicopter? Can you repair a canoe that's been wrapped around a rock in rapids? Etc.

So here's my quibble with Cpl Punishment -- modern survival isn't a limited skill set, but a different skill set. Modern survival skills include things that I never see discussed much: signalling methods, wilderness first aid, emergency repairs (highly specific to your situation, of course), as well as all those crossover things like firelighting and shelter building.

Of course, you understand that in an emergency (vs "survival situation), you may have lost some of your gear, but you won't find yourself with only a knife. And while I think that having the skills to survive with only a knife is a good thing (and certainly helpful in an emergency), going into the bush with only a knife is foolish.

 

[baldtaco-II]

I'd pry them either further apart with the additional concept of Neo-Bushcraft.

Survival -

I think Wabajack's “Survivalists just want to get out of the woods, bushcrafters never want to leave!” touches something here. To my mind Survival is a concept based around a single precise goal state. I think it differs from the others in as much as it is usually centered around notions of immediacy and by any means necessary. True, I suppose you could hold there could be an additional aspect of “long term survival”. Where one would make an exact distinction isn't clear but I'm sure there is one. Down the small end we could have “how to rack up your coconuts to gather the water for three days time”, meander through “Survivor Chimp figures out how to fix a plastic 500 gallon water butt to the roof of his sh1t and sticks hut”, and perhaps end up with “Self sufficiency”. The later could be an extreme political / religious group huddled together sharing an intellect time forgot on a commune somewhere, or it could be like the Off The Grid DVD, or Dick Strawbridge's tribe at New House Farm
.

Mostly I think of Survival as the short term immediate intervention thing. As such I think a key difference is the “willingness to use anything” that accords exactly with “ by any means necessary”. Nothing is off limits and everything is open to exploitation if it confers an advantage. If we identify that as the r00t then it is clear that all the other concepts here are subordinate to it. One may draw up from the primitive skills thing if one really needed to rub two sticks together for fire, but the primitive skills guy doesn't want you to pass down a Stanley knife as he fashions his goat's bladder condom with a rock.

Primitive skills -

I think of this a the most easy concept. I suppose it gets a bit woolly with the time frame, but still. Unlike Survival I think the key difference here is the complete lack of innovation. That's not to say that it lacks creativity, I'm sure someone can macrame an imposing and hitherto unseen mouse snaffler from nettle stems, but by necessity fundamental to this concept is mere replication. It would be quite plausible that “inventing the wheel” is a diss if you hold this subset up in the right light. From “primitive skills” it is only a small step to “period reenactment” and the notion of costume.

Bushcraft -

Bushcraft to me is nothing more complicated than having an understanding of the tools of tradesmen and agriculture previous to big scale mechanization. Good examples of the kinds of things that spring to mind here are axes and farming, and where that takes over from a more hand to mouth existence of the primitive skills things. I guess that's where the craft comes in. I suppose an equivalent in the US would be early fur traders, patch knives, and lumberjacks. To be absolutely purist though I would contend that the best place to look at what bushcraft is would be the early settlement of whites in Australia. Below is what I consider to be a classic example of what a bushcraft knife is:

That is not a Neo-Bushcraft twig whittler it is a working knife, a tool of the trade, a box standard farm and field knife. John Nowill & Sons have been shipping those to Australia for 200yrs. John Nowill has been around since 1700 and have been making crude working knives like that for longer, but they would would have likely just been called a Rabbiter's knife had it not landed in Australia. They make a very similar one that is a bit smaller for use on boats. I think that's still just called a deck knife.

Drawing again from Wabajack's “Survivalists just want to get out of the woods, bushcrafters never want to leave!”, we can see underlying that are they key concepts of comfort during loop. The one with craft has sufficient skills to venture out into the bush, maintain a satisfactory quality of life, and return to the nest. To my mind that could be a hunting trip, a photography safari tracking elephants, or bringing in the hill sheep .etc.

Neo-Bushcraft -

This is the concept I use in substitution for when I usually see the Bushcraft knife topic come up here. To my mind Neo-Bushcraft is a complete fiction we English have successfully foisted on the world. It is the bastard offspring of marketing and political appeasement. I'm not going to chat politics but it is worth noting that after some of the negative associations the media has given both knives and survival[ists] here the market was ripe for some rewording. Warm and cuddly, sheeple friendly, earthy, birch bark alchemy into mead – whilst knowing the latin name of the rock your standing on – wearing the Friar Tuck outfit – holding a cheapo Scandi that didn't look too different from the kitchen knives that don't scare them at home concepts don't present as so threatening and slip under the negative press radar. Plebs will accept them as a bit eccentric but on the whole happy clappy. On that, I think much of the Neo-Bushcaft thing is just a bucket category born of bending over, and political evasion through re-branding.

The marketing aspect just capitalized on that. Being as it is a mongrel fueled by people trying to sell stuff it helps if the concept is fuzzy and abstract. Where we would once have had LOOK - survival straw, survival compass, survival watch blah blah, we now have bushcraft pouch, bushcraft hat, bushcraft knife and shoes. There is one aspect that does seem to remain constant and that is the primary function of a field knife is to whittle wood. The Neo-Bushcraft concept is peddled using that a lot. However, much of the marketing seems to draw on an appeal to lifestyle of the Sámi people in the same way that imagery is sold under “like Sears used”. The blatant thieving of the terminology from Australian experiences of life in the bush was I'm sure just to sex it up a bit. Very handy. "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less."

 

[Bushman5]

^ awesome, simply awesome, (Neo-Bushcraft) that had me rolling on the floor laughing! cheers!


---------

Bushcraft could also be called: Pioneer living, woodsman skills, back to the landers, Fur Trader/Voyager skills etc etc etc

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

So, how would you figure someone to be prepping with Thompson Steel Snares and ready-made brass snares with an eyelet all along with raw brass and steel wire. As well as fishing gear but not to include rod and reel along with gill nets and devices like Speedhooks, all of which I have...?

A pack mule! j/k

With certain skillsets, you can forgo all that equipment and travel much lighter and faster.

My statement was certainly an oversimplification, trying to give the basic gist of each one. With the technology and tools available today, certainly there is an amount of overlapping within each one. That's the beauty of having all three available to us, like Egg Shin said: It's like your salad bar, we take what we want and leave the rest!

I do disagree with your views of Primitive Living though. Not every practitioner has those views. But there is quite a bit to be said for those who do not need any material but the clothes on their backs, if that much, to thrive in the wilderness. It is quite valuable as it teaches you to find what you need, where to look for it and how to make it with little more than a sharp piece of quartzite rock or some other hand made tool. Knowing tools like the hand drill and hearthboard for fire starting are very important, wikiups and certain other shelters that can be used to build a fire IN would be very valuable. Basic knapping skills would definately be a plus, if you are in an area that is rich in flint, obsidian, chert or other such stones. Primitive traps and snares are also very valuable in a given situation. Small game including fish, up to large game can be killed or caught with the right kind of traps. Though it usually a good idea to concentrate on smaller game, six legged insects and grubs (unless you know wild edibles, too. Which opens up another door.). Though, depending on when you ate last, you probably won't have to worry about food for atleast 4 days (the headaches and belly rumblings will be a bitch to put up with). Exposure and dehydration will kill you before starvation will.

I always did agree with TBJ on one of his premises and I believe you echoed it in your OP.

I am definately tracking with Cpl Punishment's post @ 10:16am. He basically wrote out the full explanation of what I was thinking, but was too damned lazy to type!

Good discussion :thumbup:

 

[abo4ster]

Here are my thoughts on those definitions…

SURVIVAL – a situation you are in caused by the unexpected. Statistically these last about 72 hours. (For our discussions, when we say survival, we should refer to the 72 hour scenario as that is the standard in most professional circles such as the National Association for Search and Rescue.)

SURIVIVALIST – someone who prepares for the unexpected. Those with an obsessive compulsive disorder tend to give “survivalists” a bad name. Survivalist also has the connotation of someone relying on more modern methods of “getting by.”

PRIMITIVE LIVING – a long term commitment. “There is no need getting rescued because you’re already home.” Cody Lundin, 98.6 degrees, The Art of Keeping Your Ass Alive!

PRIMITIVE LIVING SKILLS – skills specific for that long term commitment. Tanning hides, edible/medicinal plants, long-term shelter, knowledge of seasonal cycles, social skills, etc..

BUSHCRAFT – practical skills and knowledge for time spent in nature. That time maybe a day hike, camping trip, or primitive living ~ skills that provide basic subsistence or improve comfort in nature. OR, that time maybe having to deal with the unexpected situation (survival).

BUSHCRAFT KNIFE – a simple fixed blade knife 3 to 6 inches in blade length with no guard. Most are high carbon with a scandi grind, but don’t have to be. Key word here being simple.

SURVIVAL KNIFE – I believe there are two categories here:
- Knives designed for the unexpected/back-up. Maybe small to fit into a survival kit. OR,
- Knives with an add-on feature such a saw or hollow-handle.

Taking an excerpt from “98.6 The art of keeping Your Ass Alive!” regarding the differences between survival and primitive living, “all modern skills originated from primitive skills, and the beauty of knowing both is empowering. If I lose my knife, I can make one from stone. If my magnesium and matches go down the river, I have the potential to create fire with sticks.”

There is a lot of overlap in this forum of modern vs. primitive. Thank goodness for this thread as these many different points of view on definitions used have caused confusion and/or diluted useful information.

I hope we can post a sticky with a consensus on what these terms mean. I don’t care if we modify or use these or not, let’s just get on the same page.

For example there is a thread going around on your weakest survival link and most are saying edible plants, what good is an edible plant going to do you in a 72 hour situation is they way I look at it, obviously others have a different point of view.

 

[sicily02]

Hi Don, Cpl and Hollowdeller have it as close as you can get I feel. If you go to Europe and you practice woodsmen type skills they call it bushcraft.
Over hear it is called survival skills ( now) .
It really comes down to this I feel.

It is the study of nature and learning about it. We have things now that Horace Kephat did not have but for the most part we use and practice what he called camping skills. we have tents and knives and axes and firestarters and well you get the idea. if you are not living in a house per day you are camping. Just last night on the local news here in little oh NEB. there was 23 year old women living by Lincon Neb. She has been by what the news said surviving/bushcrafting/Camping. She is concidered homeless Yet she had a shelter built up she had a fire going. Some would say that she was living a primitve life. She had no identification. She told police that she was brought to America years ago by her mom and that her mom died and she has been surviving / camping and travling by train since. She would get food by finding soup kitchens in towns that were by and going through the trash cans. She would like to have a permanet home she said and a job to. I am not sure what the Police are going to do with here she is not a drug or alcohal drinker just a young women who travels by train ( with out a ticket )and lives here and there. I think that is the key word she (LIVES).\
Like we all to till we die.

Some call what we all like to do hear on this forum survival skills some call it bushcraft skills or camping skills.
I call it learning about nature. I guess you could say that in learning about nature I am Nature Bound. There is a book called Nature Bound It is one of my favorites. It talks about learning to make a shelter, and how to find and purifiy water and find and get food ( plant and animal ) make snow shoes just all kinds of skills that will help in your learning of nature. On Pg 326 of the book there is a list of some things that you can carry to make your learning of nature, I feel a little better and easyer to do. The One Iteam I am refering to is as it says in the book A good quality hunting knife and stone.

Now that brings us to
to a survival knife I was born in 1969 I lived on a farm most of my life untill I moved to a town in 1983 that was the year the Rambo came out up intil that time A knife was either a kitchen type knife or a hunting knife and when you went into the woods you carried a hatchet Some times you carried a axe but most of the time we all carried a hatchet. In 1982 I was still using a knife by scrade that was my hunting/shinning/ now what we would call survival / bushcraft knife. I now make my own knives so I use my own. I am not making any thing new I still use and make upswept and drop points and spear points etc. I just have some better steel and handle material to work with.
And cool colors to like Orange. LOL
These are just some of the Items I carry when learning about nature

What you carry and what I carry may not be the same but that is ok. and what you my call bushcraft/survival/camping/woodsmens skills to me it is all the same I call it learning about nature.
Just as long as it gets us all out into nature to learn about it. And there is so much to learn and it will take years to do it. So injoy doing it. A knife is a knife and if it is little,big or what ever just so long as it can cut. , and shelter
is still shelter. There are just different kinds.

Well that is the way I see it anyways. LOL

Bryan

 

[RescueRiley]

I'm with Tonm on what seperates a survival knife from a bushcraft knife... I think a bushcraft knife by design is superior to carving.. but is less than ideal for super heavychores this of course doesn't mean that you can't baton with bushcraft knife, or carve a trap notch with a survival knife.. but I think he emphasis determines the function. As far as being a hobbyist... that what I am..would I like to take it further?? sure! but with work, school and family that's not in the cards for now...

 

[sicily02]

I think it all is still just learning out door skills.

Bryan

 

[CSG]

This thread is making my head swim. How about we go back to the term "outdoorsman"? That's all I am, a guy who likes the outdoors. I think I know enough that I can practice some primitive skills if needed but I do rely on my carried gear more than the natural resources around me.

The right knife ought to let you do 90% of any tasks you likely will be called upon to perform. To me, that would be a fixed blade knife like a Mora, Fallkniven F1, Buck 119, etc. 4" blade or so. A folding saw is a much more practical tool IMO than an axe and packs light enough that you're likely to have it if needed. I carry a Gerbers pruning saw in my pack.

I am way too lazy to practice bushcraft/primitive living skills and hope the gear with me will allow me to survive an unplanned few days. I think I know enough to make a fire without tools, a proper debris shelter, and how to boil water but I hope I don't actually get put to the test without at least my knife. As I only go out for day hikes now and only take off my pack when I stop to rest or eat, I have little fear of these things not being with me. I also carry essentials in my pockets (knife, fire making, light).

Bottom line is we are all practicing to some degree or another, outdoor living.

 

[Don Rearic]

I was waiting for Bryan, Quiet Bear and THE TACO to show up. All guys who have incredible insights.

 

[Don Rearic]

By the way, one person who was concerned because they, too, had used the term "sheeple" in the past E-mailed me about this thread and wanted a citation for it.

Back in 1990 a paperback caught my eye and I picked it up and chunked down the money for it after flipping through it. I would highly suggest everyone get a copy of it.

The Silent Brotherhood: The Chilling Inside Story of America's Violent, Anti-Government Militia Movement: Kevin Flynn, Gary Gerhardt

I think they re-named part of it, I just looked it up online and I don't think my 18+ year old paperback had the word "militia" on it. They probably re-named it after all of the militia movement craze years after the book was written.

The reason I suggest you read it is, this is how language gets hijacked and you get demonized and lumped in with the assholes of the world. Most of the book will make your blood boil or make you want to puke in your soup.

What it taught me is, there are people that think government should provide even simple survival to some people and anyone that provides for themselves will always be viewed as "anti-social." Let's face it, "self-reliance" and some of the big government views just clash horribly. That's why the same people are against guns and everything else. To some of these nitwits, possessing a gun is a slap in the face to their beloved system of laws and 911 telephone systems, etc.

 

[sicily02]

Hi Don and all,

LOL SCG you hit the nail on the head I have been out in the shop making knives and thinking about all that I read to day on this thread. I am with you I am a outdoors man studing nature with some cool tools of todays area and practicing with some of the ways that were done in the past. LOL
I carry some tools that some do not and vise versa. I like saws but they also seem to get bent blade wise. then I either have to replace the blade or get a new saw. PLUS i got to say I like to chop wood. and my hatchet just works for me.

This out doorsman is heading back to the shop take care all,
Don this is quite the thread:thumbup:
Bryan

 

[SouthernCross]

G'day Don

Here is another question, who came first, Mears or Kochanski's book "Bushcraft?"

With regards to the term "bushcraft", this term has been in use in Australia well before either Mr Kochanski or Mears use of the term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushcraft).


Kind regards
Mick

 

[HikingMano]

What it taught me is, there are people that think government should provide even simple survival to some people and anyone that provides for themselves will always be viewed as "anti-social." Let's face it, "self-reliance" and some of the big government views just clash horribly. That's why the same people are against guns and everything else. To some of these nitwits, possessing a gun is a slap in the face to their beloved system of laws and 911 telephone systems, etc.

I like what Lundin had to say on the subject of self-reliance and one's responsibility:

"While all agencies -local, state, and federal- hopefully do the best possible job to safeguard the needs of you and your loved ones, it all boils down to whom you trust the most to get the job done right - and to get it done right the first time. Think about this when you're tempted to pass the buck, and your personal power, to someone else. Ultimately, your safety is not the government's responsibility; it's yours."

:thumbup:

 

[Fonly]

Not really different from what others have said, but this is my take and why.

Survivalist: They stock pile, and prepare for the worst, have the skills I would hope anyways to live semi primitive like, but are still modern. Worrying about food, water, defense, things of that nature. To not all ways looking for a weekend in the woods, but more of just being prepared.

Bushcrafter/Neo Bushcrafter: Someone who enjoys their time in the woods, more of a minimalist, taking what they need from the land, and only taking what makes travel in the woods more convenient, E.G. A knife, canteen, firestarter. I see my self as this, though I still have a survivalist mind in the sense, I could have all the gear in the world and still feel is though im not prepared, still longing for something more too add, I can never have enough First aid and blade ware, but I know deep down that I have the knowledge to back up even the slightest amount of gear that I have with me. It's also a love for the woods, being most comfortable there, and getting away from the crap of the real world. All problems and hardships of the outside world drift away in the fire smoke, as well an any worries. Its a craft that releases the soul, and bring us closer to nature, while having fun doing it.


I do see traits between a survival knife and bushcrafter in the sense that at certain times the term can be coined for either. If you head to the woods, with the purpose to try primitive skills, your taking your bushcraft. but lets say your heading down a river, have your fire starter and basics on you but loose every thing except for that knife, it now is not only a bushcraft, now its a survival knife in the sense that you need it to survival, not practice. But, that can work both ways, any knife will carve, notch, cut and shave. If you feel an RC4 is a bushcrafter, fine, it works for that so why not. Is there a design we see as a bushcrafter?
Sure, anything scandi ground with a 4" blade and wood handles is a bushcrafter. Likewise anything with a 7" blade, carbon steel blade and G10 handles is a survival knife, but their both interchange able in the end, I think the terms just stand for a quick way to define a knife's style/characteristics.

 

[hannibal lecter spyderco]

to me bushcraft is the pc term for survivalism since survivalism has a bad rep for those doom days people. Bushcraft was properly coined in africa or australia. If you look at the oldest fm books on survival. What you will see is the exact same thing that is coined bushcraft. You cannot truly survive without bushcraft in the purest sense of the word. Minus carving out tools i.e. spoons and forging you own knife at bushcraft, I don't see much difference, unless someone can point out specific examples of what is taught in bushcraft that isn't taught in survival schools or first edition fm books. Once you start dealing with leather and dear horn etc.. I view that as more arts and crafts than bushcraft.

 

[udtjim]

To me, there is no connection between wood/bushcraft and survival. Survival depends on contending with whatever you come up against. Wood?Bush craft is just that, working with wood in woods environment either as a hobby or a way of life. It can be as modern or as primative as existing conditions allow.

Survival? Let say you were on that plane last week that landed on the river. Now lets say that the plane had made it far enough to be over a wilderness area. Lets say the plane flipped and came apart and you, for some reason was the only survivor. Now add to that, the plane and it's part quickly washed down steam and you are left on the bank with a broke limb and the only thing you have with you is what the airlines allowed you to have in your pockets. This is a survival situation, This is not when you have your BOB, first aid kit, Certainly no Busse or any other fixed blade knife. Knowing air travel today, you would be lucky to have a fingernail clipper. If you want to practice survival skills, set yourself up in those conditions. Don't break a limb but tie one are behind your back or likewise imitate the condition.
This of course could be in the woods but it could just as well be plains or sand dunes.

 

[Don Rearic]

G'day Don


With regards to the term "bushcraft", this term has been in use in Australia well before either Mr Kochanski or Mears use of the term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bushcraft).


Kind regards
Mick

Mick,

I am not saying you are wrong but Wikipedia has been infested with people with ulterior motives and agendas and it's nothing to really go on there and say whatever you want to. It's not necessarily the proof I would go by. Snopes and the other sites are like that as well.

 

[Don Rearic]

to me bushcraft is the pc term for survivalism since survivalism has a bad rep for those doom days people.

I think the words "survivalist" and "survivalism" got a bad rap from the racist, lunatic fringe elements in society. Secondarily, I think you might be on to something about the various doomsday people.

Doomsday outlooks are quite interesting, for many people, their doomsday came and doomsday had a name, Katrina...Rita... It doesn't have to be the end of the world as we know it or the end of the world for all of us, for many people, the end of the world came for them.

I still stubbornly hold on to the words "survivalist" and "survivalism" because the root of both words is SURVIVAL. We can freely discuss Survival Vs. Everything Else and that is precisely why I started the thread! I love hearing everyone's opinions on it and this is so harmless, it's cool to sit back and not have some type of flaming controversy over things.

Bushcraft was properly coined in africa or australia. If you look at the oldest fm books on survival. What you will see is the exact same thing that is coined bushcraft.

By "fm" I assume you mean "Field Manuals." Are you speaking about U.S. Military Field Manuals, if so, which ones and what is the earliest one you are speaking about?

You cannot truly survive without bushcraft in the purest sense of the word. Minus carving out tools i.e. spoons and forging you own knife at bushcraft, I don't see much difference, unless someone can point out specific examples of what is taught in bushcraft that isn't taught in survival schools or first edition fm books. Once you start dealing with leather and dear horn etc.. I view that as more arts and crafts than bushcraft.

Well, for one thing, I don't consider "forging your own knife" to be "Bushcraft" unless you are hung up on "The Hunted." I don't even know if I'm reading you correctly on that part or not.

Again, you speak of "first edition fm books," what are you talking about? "FM" is generally accepted as a military abbreviation for "Field Manual" just as "TM" stands for "Technical Manual."

I have a copy of Survival, Evasion and Escape which, IIRC - without looking at the bookshelf in the other room, dated 1969 or 70. They have stuff in there about drying hides, again, IIRC. I'll have to look.

 

[siguy]

in my mind, alot is in the terms applied...

bushCRAFT-for me invokes a primitive, long term woods living scenario. this is where things like making various tools, containers, as well as trapping, fishing, etc come into play. this is also where building shelters comes into play as well.

SURVIV(E)al-i see this as a pleasant outdoors experience gone wrong. whether when fishing and the canoe tips over, hiking and you slip and break an ankle, bushcrafting and you cut some fingers off, etc. it is not on purpose. this means that you want everything to be as easy as possible for you so that you can focus on keeping yourself alive until rescue comes or you can find a way out.

i think this also has to do with the knives:
a bushcraft knife is smaller, normally thinner and geared towards fine motor skills like carving traps and making various other things.

a survival knife is typically larger, heavier and geared towards gross motor skills like chopping for the sake of quickly erecting shelter, gathering firewood, etc.

a bushcrafter vs a survivalist...
i think that in general a bushcrafter is someone that enjoys simply being in the woods for the sake of being there, and expecting the woods to provide for them through the use of a minimum set of tools as well as the knowledge in their head.

i see a survivalist as someone that enjoys being in the woods, but taking extra precautions to make mistakes easier to handle.

and thereign lies the difficulty in seperating the two...because many bushcrafters also carry gear for just in case, and many survivalists like to dabble in the crafts side of the woods.

in my opinion, and it is just an opinion, many folks start out as survivalists and grow towards being bushcrafters. as they spend more time in the woods learning, they reduce the amount of just in case gear in favor of confidence in various skills.

all of the above is in reference to the survivalist that enjoys being in the woods. the matter of the Y2K type of survivalist with an underground bunker and machine guns and 10 years worth of food and water is another thing, at least in my mind.