Survival Gear Fallacies

sutured said:
First Aid Kits on day hikes: Ibuprofen and a clean bandana. If that won't take care of it you either are beyond self-help or are better off walking out and getting proper care.
Water purification: Again, were back to camping. Unless you live where typhoid and cholera are rampant, water purification is not a survival issue. Water born illnesses take days or weeks to incubate in your gut. If you're not out by then, the squirts are the least of your worries. Anyone who won't drink adequate water because they can't purify it is making poor decisions.
Click to expand...
I disagree. First off I carry bandaids because they weigh next to nothing and they still have the same value as they do at home and that is as an easy and convenient way to dress a small wound. I don't know about you but I don't like bleeding all over the place and/or having to hold a bandana on my hand while I cut my hike short. As for the water purification, I agree with the last sentence but like bandaids, tabs are almost weightless considering there value. Severe cramping and explosvie diarrhea from water born illnesses are a survival concern even when you're at home or in a hospital. If you're dying of thirst you should go ahead and drink untreated water but if you know what you're doing you have a water bottle with you and if you can carry that, you can carry water treatment tabs. To me it's a no brainer.

As to the OP's question I see a few fallacies:
First is the idea that you should only carry gear for "super death survival self rescue." Sometimes I carry gear so that if I get caught in a downpoor I can put up a tarp and have a cup of cocoa til the rain lets up. Not a "death is imminent" survival scenario but it sure makes what could be a miserable outing more comfy. In fact sometimes that kind of thing can be the best part of the outing.
Second is gear decisions based on machismo rather than rational, critical thinking. This happens a lot. And brings me to number 3.
Third is the blade-centric survival mind set. I too fantasize about taming the wild with just a knife and a fire starter but then I wake up and strap on my day pack for my hike. If I were to put my gear choices in order of importance, a knife wouldn't crack my top 5. I believe that the edged tools I carry are my LAST bits of gear that I rely on. If my life depends on them then I've already made a bunch of bad choices.

Of course there are always exceptions. Where I live carrying an axe is silly but where upnorth lives a chainsaw can be downright practical. So, YMMV. :D
 
Last edited:
LMT66 said:
I think an altoids tin packed with whatever you think will help you out in a dire situation decreases your odds of success. Be realistic.
A SS Guyot or Nalgene bottle nested in a SS cup that is mated with duct tape on the outside is a better idea. You can stuff a UL sil-nylon tarp (think BCUSA UL MEST), a heat sheet, small fire kit, bandana, garbage bag, SAK and first-aid kit in the bottle and you have something that greatly increases your success. Grab the bottle and go. Everything is sealed in a compact waterproof vessel and you have a way to collect water and boil it. You could even put things in the cup before duct taping them together for a little more capacity.

This old thread was pretty cool. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-from-our-quot-Bare-Bones-quot-Trip(Pic-Heavy
Click to expand...

Have a similar Guyot 10x4 kit myself. Though I like to carry water in the bottle as otherwise I would be on a constant hunt for processing water. The small kit I believe would assist. Have 2-3 ways for a fire in them for example...that would help if you dropped or left your Guyot kit.
 
sutured said:
The whole "survival" concept itself is the biggest fallacy for the majority of people who discuss it. Every time I ask someone what exactly they plan to survive with their uber-knife, altoids tin, ten essentials, etc., I hear crickets. Just what exactly are these "survival situations" people keep getting into, and how are they getting there???

What most people think of as survival is really just camping... Camping with more crap than any sane person would consider carrying.

Survival is about decision making. Part of that decision making is what you carry with you, but that is a VERY small part of it. It's a lot more fun to talk about gear than decision matrixes, and this is a gear forum, but god help anyone who really thinks survival is about the gear.

The most ridiculous "must have" items to me:

"Survival Knife": Near as I can tell the definition of this is an otherwise useful tool that's so overbuilt as to be too heavy to carry and too thick to use. No doubt this will be my demise, but I much prefer knives that are of a size and shape to be useful.

Altoids tin: Yes, they can be handy, but that's really all they are...handy. Mine is full of vicoden, cigarettes, and a fifty dollar bill for when I find a bar.

First Aid Kits on day hikes: Ibuprofen and a clean bandana. If that won't take care of it you either are beyond self-help or are better off walking out and getting proper care.

Paracord bracelets: I'm at risk of pissing myself every time I see one. A bit of paracord can be very handy, but that's what pockets are for.

Multitools: I've tried to love them, but the only time I've ever found a use for one that justified the weight is while riding my motorcycle.

Stupid firestarters: Dryer lint and hand sanitizer comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

Miniature knives: So you've got a belt knife, a pocket knife, and probably a neck knife, but for some reason you need a wallet knife, xacto blade, and some other miniature knife secreted god knows where. WHY??????

Water purification: Again, were back to camping. Unless you live where typhoid and cholera are rampant, water purification is not a survival issue. Water born illnesses take days or weeks to incubate in your gut. If you're not out by then, the squirts are the least of your worries. Anyone who won't drink adequate water because they can't purify it is making poor decisions.

The very idea of the "survival kit": A pre-constructed kit full of stuff I have no immediate use for is NOT something I'll carry around. It doesn't allow for tailoring what you carry to your environment, and the end result is either that you carry things which aren't worth their weight, or you go out with a false sense of security because you have your Survival Kit.
Click to expand...

One question left, what does the "survival" concept mean to you with some detail? You do say making decisions, yes and deciding on gear, ok.
 
I don't see anything laughable about paracord bracelets or water purification. (I think parachute cord is not the best choice in cordage for most purposes, but that's another story....)

In the early days of Bladeforums the fad for hollow-handle survival knives was still going strong. A faddist would join up and say Oh boy I just got myself a survival knife!!!!! Now what shall I put in the handle? A few other faddists would have a great time helping him decide and the rest of us would ridicule them. 5 halazone, 4 wooden matches, 3 fishhooks, 2 band-aids, and it's all wrapped up in parachute cord (sing to the tune of The 12 Days of Christmas).... Occasionally I would take a break from the ridicule and tell them to put a pouch on their belt. If you have your survival knife you must have it on a belt, right? So put a pouch on the belt, too, next to the sheath, and then you'll have room for enough gear to do you some good.

I guess the Altoids tin is the fad that replaced the hollow handle.
 
I don't carry fishing equipment in my survival kit. I usually have an assortment of rods, reels and tackle when I go into the woods.
 
I think the simplest way to explain survival based decision making is it's when a person makes decisions based on a rational and predicated analysis of the situation and environment they are in, rather than based on their comfort, bias, or on how they want things to be. It sounds simple, but it's amazingly difficult. The power of denial is like nothing I've ever seen, and the psychological reasons for a person refusing to acknowledge the reality of their situation are too numerous to count.

As a young man I laid on a bamboo mat in a dark hut and rationalized, and actually believed, that the reason I was shivering so badly that I couldn't operate the buttons on my watch (I was trying to take my pulse) was because I hadn't eaten in a couple days, and a body needs food to generate heat. It was in the high nineties and near 100% humidity at the time. I know it sounds crazy, but I was alone, without resources, completely isolated from anyone who could help me, and I was desperate not to have the disease that it was obvious I had.

That's a fairly extreme example, but it's not unusual. The majority of people who succumb to hypothermia never had a traumatic event like falling in icy water, they just keep loosing heat a little at a time and don't change what they're doing and address the heat loss until they are unable to function. A more prosaic example might be enduring the boredom and discomfort of laying under your broken down 4X4 for five hours so you can walk out for help when the sun goes down rather than heading out when it's 120 degrees and the only shade for miles is under your vehicle. That's a tough decision to make even if you know it's the right one. It's uncomfortable and it feels like inactivity in a situation that calls for action.

Another very equal part of survival decision making is having a realistic assessment of your expertise in the environment you're in, and behaving accordingly. You might teach desert, jungle and arctic survival to the Navy SEALS, but if you don't understand tides and what affects them, AND possess and know how to read a tide chart, your first hike on the Lost Coast Trail will be your last hike anywhere. Being aware enough to recognize new situations and environments and then being humble enough to behave conservatively until more expertise is gained trumps a bag full of gizmos any day.

Regarding the gear, everyone is welcome to carry what they want how they want. Where it gets to be a bit over the top, IMO, is when people loose track of the inherent value of something and confuse things that are handy to have with things that you absolutely MUST have, such as water purification: Yes, purifying water is smart and the tablets are small and I'm not recommending people not carry and use them. But in north america at least, a water purification tablet isn't going to save your life. A lot of people don't seem to realize that drinking un-purified water out of a stream, river or lake...even a stagnant pond, is a very smart thing to do if you need water. I routinely drink untreated water out of rivers, lakes and streams, though I have something of an immunity from my travels.

Like purification tablets, a first aid kit can be handy. But it's not a game changer. All of it can be improvised, yet some people consider it so essential that they put it on the outside of their pack so they can get to it right away. I think they are carrying the illusion of preparedness rather than the real thing.

Paracord bracelets: I find them ridiculous because they strike me as the epitome of something a person carries for that life-and-death scenario which is so unlikely to ever occur that wearing a bracelet in preparation is irrational, but that's what people on Utube are doing so it must be right. While I'm sure it's happened at some point or another, I don't think most people wearing "survival bracelets" frequently untie them when they need a piece of cord. They're for survival, after all. I've got a nine-foot hank of paracord that I carry in my pack, and I use it all the time. It's very handy. Why I would ruin the utility of it by weaving it into a bracelet is something I can't wrap my mind around.

To each their own, of course. I wouldn't think less of someone who chooses to wear one any more than I'd think less of someone who lugs a gigantic knife around or who wears a kilt instead of trousers or who drives a ford instead of a toyota. It's just not my idea of something that's been well thought out.

I love seeing new ideas and I'll try new things with an open mind, but I make my own decisions. I suspect everyone else is capable of doing the same.
 
sutured said:
I think the simplest way to explain survival based decision making is it's when a person makes decisions based on a rational and predicated analysis of the situation and environment they are in, rather than based on their comfort, bias, or on how they want things to be. It sounds simple, but it's amazingly difficult. The power of denial is like nothing I've ever seen, and the psychological reasons for a person refusing to acknowledge the reality of their situation are too numerous to count.
Click to expand...

Nice post. The quote is exactly why I don't like the idea of a survival kit that is "off limits" until you're in a survival situation. Generally these kinds of things creep up on you and it's a giant mental leap to actually realize that you're in a bad way and that you need to use this stuff. I have very few things in my gear that I go out with that I know I'm probably not going to use on a hike like fire starters and the like but they get used if I need them even if what I need them for is a cup of tea. Nothing I carry is off limits.

I also agree about the paracord. A daisy chain in the pocket is a lot handier. I've done the bracelet thing but when I went to use it, it was a huge pain to get undone.
 
I'll definitely take it that people will make their own decisions as we all should and do. What I think we should do as a community, if we find a fallacy, we should educate those people the best we can to help our brothers and sisters out. Making fun of them or what they carry discourages them from participating and learning. One of those people making you pee your pants may save your life one day and not by carrying some Depends. Thanks for that clarification.
 
I don't have a mini kit but if that's all you got it's better than nothing.

My problem is like when I'm at work or something I'm in the city, so I really don't need a mini kit.

When I'm home around the farm I'm close to my house and no chance of needing any survival gear.

When I'm hiking in my woods, or dayhiking, I nearly always bring a little daypack with all sorts of stuff in it so I don't need a pocket kit.

When I'm in my car I have space blanket, extra clothes fire, knife first aid and all that crap so I don't need it there.

When I'm backpacking I have all sorts of stuff for emergencies so I don't need it THEN.

So for me it's more that I usually have MORE than what is in a tin on me most of the time.


But! While we are going on about things, what about these little PSK's and skeletonized neck knives???

I have some so I'm no prude, but honestly a nice lock back folder or even any sort of small pocket knife is probably about half the price and way more useful??
 
Recently while hunting & freezing my butt off, i returned to my vehicle & broke out lunch. The guy i was hunting with was amazed at how just my pocket stove & it's fuel canister & a couple cans of soup & a couple msr mini pots, a P-51 (giant P-38) & a couple plastic spoons that i threw in a pack & threw in the truck, turned an otherwise miserable morning, into an awesome pick-me-up, so we could head back out & hunt some more. Sometimes, just a couple extra minutes of planning makes ALL the difference, While certainly no survival situation, my buddy SURE appreciated what i brought with us. Having multiple packs, pre-loaded & empty sure comes in handy, to throw in the vehicle before heading out. Most of us are always within a days hike to our vehicles, so it is easy to use them as a "mobile base camp". Even a mini or micro kit can come in handy. The week before, while hunting, i found a great spot to sit (still no deer in the freezer though, lol) but there were LOTS of vines. Out came my 12" Ontario machete from my pack. I started to de-vine my shooting lane with it. The first one i swiped at, as luck would have it, it glanced off & caught my left hand, by the thumb (the meaty chicken wing looking part-that goes to the palm). Man-o-man did it bleed. I was by myself & afraid to look based on how bad it was bleeding. I keep my machete razor sharp. Took over an hour to stop. I put pressure on it with the only thing i had-a paper towel. Probably could have used a stitch or two. Today I went out & bought a waterproof cell phone case & made it into a mini first aid kit. 6 waterproof large band-aids, 10 reg sized band-aids, tube of triple anti-biotic ointment, lighter. Still got room left too. May add a needle & light fishing line. I will put that in my hunting pack for sure. My embarrassing little cut could have been MUCH worse.
 
Tixx said:
I'll definitely take it that people will make their own decisions as we all should and do. What I think we should do as a community, if we find a fallacy, we should educate those people the best we can to help our brothers and sisters out. Making fun of them or what they carry discourages them from participating and learning. One of those people making you pee your pants may save your life one day and not by carrying some Depends. Thanks for that clarification.
Click to expand...

Mr. Tixx,
I agree wholeheartedly that an atmosphere of inclusion is better than an atmosphere of ridicule. I am not shy about making fun of trends, but have never intentionally made fun of an individual.

As I eluded to in another post, someone who has valid personal reasons for choosing the gear they choose has no cause to take offense at my destain for the same gear, any more than I have cause to take offense if everyone doesn't adopt my personal preference for storm matches.

I wear a hat (Tilley), which many of my friends find to be absurd. Perhaps from a fashion point it is. My friends and co-workers spout an endless litany of guffaws, snickers, and outright insults when I wear it, which is pretty much every day. But I'm not concerned with the fashion values of my friends, and certainly not of strangers. The hat does what I want a hat to do and it doesn't do what I don't want a hat to do, so I keep wearing it day in and day out. It doesn't bother me that others find it ridiculous.

Anyone who has their ego, self esteem, or self worth tied up in their chosen gear and is therefore subject to feeling hurt because I, or anyone else finds said gear ridiculous, has a tremendous amount of growing-up to do before they can engage in a meaningful conversation on any topic.

I have no desire to offend or ostracize these people, and I wouldn't insult any individual without very good reason, but I see no benefit in coddling them, either. I see a vast difference between saying that "survival bracelets are ridiculous", and saying "poster X, you are ridiculous because you wear a survival bracelet".

If that's too cerebral for anyone then I guess they can put me on their ignore list.
 
I have a Altoids tin that goes in whatever pack I happen to have with me. I always carry a SAK and a Bic lighter with a small flashlight on my keychain. The altoids tin contains 6 ft of paracord, a needle w/ thread, bandaids, a button compass and days worth of current prescription meds. I don't carry it in my pocket because I always have a back pack or at least a small hydration pack when hiking.
 
Shotgun said:
Nice post. The quote is exactly why I don't like the idea of a survival kit that is "off limits" until you're in a survival situation. Generally these kinds of things creep up on you and it's a giant mental leap to actually realize that you're in a bad way and that you need to use this stuff. I have very few things in my gear that I go out with that I know I'm probably not going to use on a hike like fire starters and the like but they get used if I need them even if what I need them for is a cup of tea. Nothing I carry is off limits.

I also agree about the paracord. A daisy chain in the pocket is a lot handier. I've done the bracelet thing but when I went to use it, it was a huge pain to get undone.
Click to expand...

Yeah, an off limits survival kit seems strange. I don't find many people on the boards posting how they are not using their kits and waiting for the right life or death opportunity to use one. I find many people using their kits, testing their gear and enjoying themselves doing so in outdoor activities. Some great threads are out there with pics and everything. Those are some of my favorites to read through and view.

Some of them are a pain to get unravelled, I agree.
 
I've been following the survival threads for a while as I find them quite insightful and I've seen at least a couple of times where people mention suturing. For 99% of cuts you really want to apply pressure. If that doesn't work you have severed a major artery and need to start heading to a medical facility because a "stitch" isn't going to cut it.

In terms of what to use: The Israeli bandages are really quite well engineered. As an alternative you can pack some 4x4 gauze pads and wrapping material. You are looking to apply pressure akin to a compression bandage, not a tourniquet. The quick clot materials do work, but only on fairly small vessels and must be used in conjunction with pressure. They are not wonder materials that can stop any bleeding. Finally there is derma bond (basically super glue). It works great for small cuts, but again only after you have managed to stop the bleeding. It doesn't stick well if you are bleeding at the time.

While on the subject of FAK the only med that would be indispensable would be Benadryl for the rare case of an allergic reaction.
 
Use what you have at hand. Agreeing with all of you btw. You prepare best you can and if you left any cracks use knowledge and use what you have. That's pretty much all you can do.
 
This is great thread, some excellent questioning of internet "survival" orthodoxy here.

The biggest fallacy for me, is all the pre-planned 'survival' kits people stash everywhere and show & tell here. I'm mostly a lurker, so maybe I'm in the minority, but I just assemble my gear based on what I will actually use in the field if I think I will forget anything I jot down a list. If am going hunting locally, I don't need much more than a few items in my pack. Lunch, rain-gear, extra socks & layers, beverages are the priority. I can't tell you how many times I've come home with 1/2 my water bottle still full, and 2 pairs of socks soaked. If I am with my Cubscout den it's snacks, activities & field guides to keep them occupied. I don't need a 7" fixed blade for either of these activities, even though I have several. I would bet even though extremely rare the chance of dying from exposure or hypothermia from getting wet from weather or sweat is much more likely than lack of a fishook & snare wire ...

I have torpedoed most of the 'typical survival items' and here is why:

Paracord -I have found that 10-20 ft length of light nylon rope is much more useful in the field - anywhere from rigging a deer drag, to hauling my shotgun/pack up into the stand. The rope is much easier to tie & untie a bowline, for constant reuse. Paracord is much harder to un-knot

Hatchets & 'chopper' knives - Too heavy & difficult to stow. I don't live in a tropical rain forest. The only time I use a hatchet or ax is car camping, even then I'm cautious about kids running around. If I need to collect dead wood most of the time I break it in a tree or step on it. To me a knife with a blade >9" inches is bordering on "lord of the rings short sword." I'm not saying you can't collect them or use them - but I find the actual situations where I would want one are about zero.

"Survival-sized" button compasses, signal mirrors, whistles, snarewire, fishhooks etc ... Yeah, talk about chinzy gear that you will never use. All this crap distracts me from enjoying what I am out there for. Almost everywhere I have been in CONUS has at least one bar of cell service --- even 40-50 miles out in the desert or in the mountains. Bring extra layers so you don't die of exposure after you call in a SAR. Situational awareness (like turning your cell phone off so the battery doesn't die) and paying attention to your surroundings are far more important to me than 'bushcraft' skills.

Flash lights/weaponlights etc --- let your eyes adjust to your natural night-vision, you can see excellent in all but the darkest, cloudy, stormy nights.

Tacticool/milsurp/mall ninja gear --- Going for a day hike doesn't involve a search & destroy mission in khandahar province, I think you'll be alright with out a "3 day assault pack" with 15 MOLLE pouches hanging off it to get caught on branches. Come to think of it - I almost never see guys or hunters with crap like this actually out in the field, and I live in OH, where the population is pretty dense.

I could go on and on --- but that's enough. I get it that a lot of folks here like to buy new 'survival themed gear' and there is nothing wrong with that. Putting together kits is fun for many of you, check. Guys that like to collect knives --- I am with you. Heck, I have way more guns than I could ever even use/shoot/want to clean in a single day, I buy & collect them because I am a gun nut, and always seem to want to add one more to the stable. Do I need a pistol for protection & self-defense while hunting with a shotgun? No. I doubt too many folks are going to mess with an openly armed man with a long arm. But hey, I like carrying a pistol too. It's dead weight that I am not going to use. So I am guilty of 'redundancy' too. Don't get me wrong, I put together some altoid kits in the distant past too --- I just never used them.

I try to follow the boyscout motto 'be prepared' --- but within reasonable limits. I try to have the necessary gear on hand for likely use in the field, and to provide a minimal level of comfort.
 
1st=====The more you know the less you carry,,I disagree....Three camping trips this year with friends/co-workers proved this to me..These guys are not ex military,boy scouts of survivial gurus..Just your average Joe citizen....Just spending one night out along the river building fires,pitching tents,cooking and fishing...Everyone learned so much and ultimately will be buying more gear..My belief.."The more you know the more you have"....

2===This Altoid tin craze?? I use small backpacks and have several..There is no way I would rely on a little tin to survive and can't see the usefullness...Its just too easy to take a small pack..I'm 43 yrs old and have never been able to "NOT" have a pack..When I camp , hike, fish , kayak , travel with the family , go on vacation , go to the zoo etc...I take a small backpack...When I'm not doing any of these activities I'm either at work or at home and could'nt possibly need to carry any of this stuff on me when its all ready there.

My 2 cents on Survivial Gear Fallacies....CD
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top