Survival Gear Fallacies

[fmajor007]

I am really enjoying this thread and the Community comprised herein.

In more than a few other Forums, when people who disagree with whatever topic is proposed - aka the proposed "Holy Cow" (for our Hindu friends, please excuse my irreverent reference...) everyone becomes a child throwing a temper-tantrum complete with bad language and worse spelling/grammar.

Here? Nope, we simply disagree with an occasional dig tossed in for the lighthearted fun of it.

As i said earlier, in principal i agree with the idea of "the more you know, the less you carry", i would qualify that with what that addition knowledge brings - an increased knowledge of how things can go sideways and unexpected in a hurry. With this raised awareness there is a greater need to have supplies/tools on-hand to accommodate these additional potentialities. In short, the more you know, the wider array of things you want to prepare for so the *more* you carry!!!

I find that my base kit, my EDC - my woobie - generally has the basic supplies/tools to assist me through the initial stage of whatever predicament i've found myself in. I augment these supplies/tools with additional temperature dependent supplies (water, food, etc)/clothes (extra socks/hats/gloves, etc), but the basic tool kit remains the same...

I use my kit - especially the "medical" stuff like band-aides, Chapstick, etc and my tools like my Leatherman Wave pretty regularly. I don't use my signaling or fire-making kits as much, but every time i make a fire, that kit gets used. I re-stock things as regularly as needed, but i definitely use my gear.

Incidentaly, i organize my "stuff" by kit in my larger EDC pack so i #1) know exactly where everything is (i can get to anything i carry blind-folded) #2) can tell others where anything in my pack is (were i incapacitated...) #3) supplies/tools remain 'modular' so i don't have to pull everything out for 1 specific task.

 

[pitdog]

I think an altoids tin packed with whatever you think will help you out in a dire situation decreases your odds of success. Be realistic.
A SS Guyot or Nalgene bottle nested in a SS cup that is mated with duct tape on the outside is a better idea. You can stuff a UL sil-nylon tarp (think BCUSA UL MEST), a heat sheet, small fire kit, bandana, garbage bag, SAK and first-aid kit in the bottle and you have something that greatly increases your success. Grab the bottle and go. Everything is sealed in a compact waterproof vessel and you have a way to collect water and boil it. You could even put things in the cup before duct taping them together for a little more capacity.

This old thread was pretty cool. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-from-our-quot-Bare-Bones-quot-Trip(Pic-Heavy

While I agree with what you say being better, in the average survival scenario it might not be essential.
To quote from Cody Lundin: 'The average survival scenario lasts for 72 hrs or 3 days. statistically speaking, this is the amount of time that passes before searchers find you dead or alive-as long as you have someone searching for you.'

With that in mind the ability to cook or boil water would be low on my list of priorities( although I grant you a nice warm drink would work wonders for moral ), I could quite easily drink from streams and puddles at the risk of suffering stomach problems for a 72 hr period. For that reason I believe signalling, fire and shelter to be my highest priorities.

Obviously there are countless stories of long term survival and in those cases obviously the more you have the better you will be, I'm just saying don't count the little kits out for the average scenario.


I will add that you'd be a fool not to have a small tarp, survival bag etc in one of your pockets when hiking in winter !!!

 

[heresay1]

I'll jump in.

Wool blankets- apparently they can protect you against Arctic temps and are fireproof.

Tinder- no need to bring your own when bringing a firestarter be it a lighter, ferry rod, fire piston, etc.. If you need tinder there will be some wherever you go and it will ignite.

Solar Stills- forget about bringing extra water when hiking in the desert. Just bring a clear sheet of plastic and make a solar still and that will solve your water.

And the idea that so long as I have this item and/or skill I can go anywhere, anytime of the year, anytime of day, and be just fine.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Not sure if double taps are the fault of the site software or whatever.

 

[sutured]

Wool blankets resist sparks better than man-made materials and are far less efficient insulation (R value vs. weight) than polyester batting, pile or fleece. Hence, wool is used for socks by Arctic and Antarctic expeditions for the last few decades with insulation layers being polyester.

As petroleum jelly smeared cotton balls weigh next to nothing and can be compressed to use almost no space, hoping to find tinder seems unwise, especially for those of us who live where cold = very wet day after day after day. It's Pass/Fail. No extra credit for doing it the harder way. If a "tinder box" was good enough for D. Boone and "Lofty" says to take tinder, it's no disgrace today.

Solar stills do not produce much water, and the dryer the area the less water they will produce. Adding wet foliage may get you a cup a day. They work better for purifying doubtful water. A couple of chlorine dioxide pills take up far less room, and they work. A transpiration bag works better if you are looking for that extra credit. Take plenty of water when you start hiking in "dessert." After experience, you will more likely take even more.

I'm pretty sure H1 was pointing out fallacies...that is the title of the thread.

 

[Thomas Linton]

I'll jump in.

Wool blankets- apparently they can protect you against Arctic temps and are fireproof.

Tinder- no need to bring your own when bringing a firestarter be it a lighter, ferry rod, fire piston, etc.. If you need tinder there will be some wherever you go and it will ignite.

Solar Stills- forget about bringing extra water when hiking in the desert. Just bring a clear sheet of plastic and make a solar still and that will solve your water.

And the idea that so long as I have this item and/or skill I can go anywhere, anytime of the year, anytime of day, and be just fine.

Against the chance that you are not being ironic:

Wool blankets do resist sparks better than man-made materials and are far less efficient insulation (R value vs. weight) than polyester batting, pile or fleece. Hence, wool is used for socks by Arctic and Antarctic expeditions for the last few decades with insulation layers being polyester.

As petroleum jelly smeared cotton balls weigh next to nothing and can be compressed to take almost no space, depending on finding tinder seems unwise, especially for those of us who live where cold = very wet day after day after day. It's Pass/Fail. No extra credit for doing it the harder way. If a "tinder box" was good enough for D. Boone and "Lofty" says to take tinder, it's no disgrace today.

Solar stills do not produce much water, and the dryer the area the less water they will produce. Adding wet foliage may get you a cup a day. They work better for purifying doubtful water, if there is any water. A couple of chlorine dioxide pills take up far less room, and they work, if there is any wild water. A transpiration bag works better if you are looking for that extra credit. Take plenty of water when you start hiking in "dessert." After experience, you will more likely take even more.

(Google brings you into a thread where your search terms are found, and you don't know the knowledge level of the searcher.)

 

[Tixx]

Is this thread still about fallacies as the OP was looking for or just telling people they are wrong for bringing something you don't?

 

[Thomas Linton]

I think - I hope -- it's about an exchange of opinions and information about wilderness survival by people who, generally, respect each other and do not think they are the final arbiters of all things survival.

 

[heresay1]

I'll jump in.

Wool blankets- apparently they can protect you against Arctic temps and are fireproof.

Tinder- no need to bring your own when bringing a firestarter be it a lighter, ferry rod, fire piston, etc.. If you need tinder there will be some wherever you go and it will ignite.

Solar Stills- forget about bringing extra water when hiking in the desert. Just bring a clear sheet of plastic and make a solar still and that will solve your water.

And the idea that so long as I have this item and/or skill I can go anywhere, anytime of the year, anytime of day, and be just fine.

Yes, I was being ironic and pointing out fallacies.

I actually carry petroleum jelly soaked cotton balls as my tinder. Years ago on a backpacking trip I tried to start a fire with just a lighter. I thought the twigs I gathered were thin enough to be adequate tinder. Eventually the twigs lit up but I thought how much easier it would have been if I had brought some petro jelly cotton balls. Good thing it did not rain that day and soak everything prior to making a fire.

I got the chance to use a wool blanket on a BOSS field course years ago. It was our backpack and sleeping bag. We never used our blankets as sleeping bags alone. We always wore a wool balaclava, thermals, shirt, pants, light sweater, light jacket, wool socks, and shoes when sleeping in our blanket. The wool blanket helped keep me warm but the blanket alone without the other layers would not have kept me warm.

David Alloway, Ron Hood, and Les Stroud have mentioned solar stills do not produce enough water in the desert to live off of.

I get the impression some survival gear is being given qualities that far exceed what they actually can do.

 

[BrettP]

When I read the title of this post I knew there would be some disagreements. I wasn’t disappointed.  Honestly I don’t understand why you would carry just the tin anyway. Do people actually do that? When I’m out in the woods I care the things that I know I would need to survive for a while in my day pack. I don’t get the minimalistic side of the tin. I’ve made a couple and it’s kind of fun to see what you can get in them but…

A lot of good stuff is being brought up here. A few things have made me think. First if you’re going to carry a water purification tablet/s in your altoids tin… Do you have a container to put the water in for purification? I assume that you’re carrying some form of water container. I believe it’s important to have the right amount of water to table ratio for it to work properly. If you have a stainless cup you can boil water on the fire.

 

[BrettP]

Oh ya and if you are watching some yo yo on YouTube and taking three items with you into the woods thinking you will survive... There’s a name for that: Darwinism.

 

[Hammer67]

I think - I hope -- it's about an exchange of opinions and information about wilderness survival by people who, generally, respect each other and do not think they are the final arbiters of all things survival.

Absolutely.

Obviously, a lot of this will be situation-specific, and there is no "right" answer to any of this. What one might carry for EDC if you commute to NYC every day will likely be different than someone who lives in rural Idaho.I brought all of this up to encourage critical thinking and questioning, and basing what you carry on first-hand experience, rather than what someone has told you you need to carry. As someone once said,

"If everyone is thinking the same thing, then someone probably isn't thinking."

 

[Grease]

Ever seen the M40 Survival Kits? That guy seems to have the kit idea nailed down pretty well. Lots of water treatment stuff, lots of fire stuff, lots of useful odds & ends, and it's all contained in a belt mounted pouch so you can carry it 24/7 if needed.

 

[Army of Nobunaga]

When I read the title of this post I knew there would be some disagreements. I wasn’t disappointed.  Honestly I don’t understand why you would carry just the tin anyway. Do people actually do that? When I’m out in the woods I care the things that I know I would need to survive for a while in my day pack. I don’t get the minimalistic side of the tin. I’ve made a couple and it’s kind of fun to see what you can get in them but…

A lot of good stuff is being brought up here. A few things have made me think. First if you’re going to carry a water purification tablet/s in your altoids tin… Do you have a container to put the water in for purification? I assume that you’re carrying some form of water container. I believe it’s important to have the right amount of water to table ratio for it to work properly. If you have a stainless cup you can boil water on the fire.

lol this... a tin really?

There are pretty modern waterproof containers for the cheap... the tin thing is weird imo. Im not knocking anyone.. we all carry different things into the woods when we want to go in for days, I jsut wonder how many here do walk into the woods for days...

like someone said a hook and fishing string is unncessary.. lol are you kidding me.. they take up less than a cubic inch and you can actually eat with it. Someone said if you get cut you should not try to self suture.. lol try being 100 miles from road access with a cut that finally stopped bleeding but your skin is flayed wide open... I use (have used) superglue btw.


This is a great thread. Love reading the new adds each day.. I think the problem is what we all deem as survival gear and what we all deem as a survival trip.

 

[Jackfish]

No one piece of store bought gear is ideal for a survival kit when one is going out in the woods and intentionally placing themselves in a position where the wheels could fall off the wagon.... The small can is for the car trunk or tackle box, picnic basket... Etc. of those who have no intention of having to survive. Those of us who play outside need to take a deeper responsibility for our safety and the safety of those with us. I teach my sons about the distinct difference between wanting a fire and needing a fire as an example. When on a mild fall hike when we want to stop and boil a tea can a bit of birch bark and a firesteel is a great skill to practice..... And fun too. However a few short weeks later it will be -20 and that same hike has the potential to end with someone falling up to their armpits in a beaver run..... If you are alone your skill with a firesteel is something they can talk about at your funeral. You had better have a better plan in your mind than that. This is a time when you need a fire...and not 15 minutes from now, but right the f*** now.. as your fine motor skills go first... then your gross motor skills ..... in minutes depending on whats in reach quickly, you are either a cold hunter or a statistic. We always carry zip fire starters and lighters in plastic bags.... Not as sexy as a fire steel, but I'll take it. I guess what I'm saying is depending on climate, terrain, who's with you, etc. we have to make educated choices about gear every time we abandon the safety of our vehicle, but a small kit for my wife ( who doesn't trouble herself with such things ) may come in handy for her or me in an UNFORSEEN circumstance.

 

[BrettP]

lol this... a tin really?

There are pretty modern waterproof containers for the cheap... the tin thing is weird imo. Im not knocking anyone.. we all carry different things into the woods when we want to go in for days, I jsut wonder how many here do walk into the woods for days...

like someone said a hook and fishing string is unncessary.. lol are you kidding me.. they take up less than a cubic inch and you can actually eat with it. Someone said if you get cut you should not try to self suture.. lol try being 100 miles from road access with a cut that finally stopped bleeding but your skin is flayed wide open... I use (have used) superglue btw."

lol this.... a tin really? What part are you lol'n about? What exactly are you talking about?

 

[Thomas Linton]

The Altoids tin is one of many containers for a PSK -- smaller and larger; more of less water-resistant. Apparently he is amused about selected Altoids as a standard.

Please post real survival stories where someone caught a fish for food with PSK fishing gear. I collect such stories for the lessons contained.

 

[sutured]

The Altoids tin is one of many containers for a PSK -- smaller and larger; more of less water-resistant. Apparently he is amused about selected Altoids as a standard.

Please post real survival stories where someone caught a fish for food with PSK fishing gear. I collect such stories for the lessons contained.

Fishing gear or not, I'd be interested to hear of anyone using a altoids tin kit to do anything other than address mild discomfort or inconvenience.

 

[Hammer67]

Fishing gear or not, I'd be interested to hear of anyone using a altoids tin kit to do anything other than address mild discomfort or inconvenience.

I find them to be an excellent place to store my "survival mints."

So onward and upward..."wool insulates when wet." Fallacy? Or merely exaggeration? Gospel troof? Have you ever truly spent a cold night out in a wet wool layer?

Some interesting food for thought here:

http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-best-material-for-winter-clothing.html

http://woodtrekker.blogspot.com/2012/11/cotton-vs-wool-insulation.html

Maybe its a topic that's been beaten to death, but there still seems to be a wide degree of opinion out there. In my experience, wool works...to a point. But when it's soaked, you're going to be pretty damn wet and cold. I love it, but it's not a miracle fabric.

 

[Tixx]

How are people still debating a container? Carry your gear in whatever you like. Try a hello kitty bag if it suits your fancy.

I like that wool was brought up. Seems it addresses more of what the OP contained. Like anything else, there are no miracles, but I guess I would rather be stuck with wool for most of my trips.