"Survival" Overload

[mdsmith]

I was reading another thread on this forum, and someone made a comment saying something like : People are worrying too much about survival, and not enough about just enjoying the outdoors. I've been thinking a lot about that post, and I think the poster is right. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy talking about, reading and practicing "survival" skill, as well as all of the cool survival gear. It just seems that TOO much emphisis is placed on survival. It seems like there must have been a point, before all of the survival shows and forums, when a survival course, and a PSK were things that would benifit someone who spent a lot of time outdoors (ie. hunters, mountain bikers, fisherman) in case something happened while they were doing what they do. It seems that now survival itself IS the hobby for a lot of people. Reading, posting, watching videos, buying gear, and even going out and practicing. But why do you need to worry about survivng in the first place if their isn't some other reason that you are outdoors in the first place? Are you learning to survive in case the next time you're out practicing survival skills, something happens? I know this doesn't apply to everyone here. I'm sure a lot of you were outdoors people before you got into survival. I'm also not trying to down anyone, it was just a thought I had after reading the post mentioned earlier.

 

[RescueRiley]

I think things like this represent a classic dichtomy of hyper-vigilance vs. woodlore..
There is allot of sentiment that gets passed off on the web on via the media that seems to suggest that the wilderness is out to get you.. think of dave Canterbury saying something like "this is man's country out here" I 've lived and worked in some of the worst parts of NYC for the past 17 years and I can tell you I feel much safer on my worst day in the woods than on some of my best days at work.
That being said For me practicing bushcraft skills is entirely about the mastery (or in my case competancy) of the skill as the goal... I have no illusions of surviving an apocalyptic event or a civil revolution.. I like twirling wood and getting a coal.. I like sleeping in a shelter I've made with my hands, I like being able to snack on what I find as I go..or reading sign
I find it calming and reassuring.. on a level that I had forgottten for too long
but that;s me that;s what I like.. Other people like being prepared..they like makng kits.. and than taing them apart and refining them it is t speaks to them in many of the same ways i'm sure. I don't think it has to be one way or the other.. as both are related..
in the end do what you like, like what you do.. it;s your time in the woods.. whether you choose to spend it testing out your kit or lying on a mossy rock listening to the river flow, it;s entirely your perrogative.... and that is why perhaps we all keep going back.

 

[GUStheMILKMAN]

I have to say that I agree with "mdsmith", it has gone too far. Although I am new to this forum, I am not new to the outdoor / independant lifestyle. I had a good laugh just yesterday when I saw a whole "JUST IN CASE" section at my local REI. Now when I think of REI, I think of granola and commune living (it is not a place I visit often, trust me). If this whole craze has hit the earth hippies, it has gone to far.

I don't go into the woods to prepare for the coming end or to play imaginary war games. I go there to get away and enjoy what little free time I seem to be alotted these days. I love learning new bushcraft skills for the same reason I once loved learning to hit a baseball...it is fun and there is a sense of accomplishment once you have mastered a specific task.

So maybe these "apocolyptic warriors" should get up from the computer and take a hike or throw a line in a local stream and enjoy the great outdoors and forget searching for hours for the newest survival knife (usually overpriced and lacking in functional ability). Maybe then they will forget all the nonsense and remember why the great outdoors has been calling men since the beginning of time. Lighten up and live a little guys !!!

 

[barrabas74]

I'd say 90% of my time in the woods is spent hunting, fishing, hiking etc. The other time I like to practice skills just to know that I can do them. I take a hike and think "hey that would be a great place to make a shelter/friction fire etc" so I go do that and practice it. It's partially to just know that I can make a friction fire or make a certain kind of trap, but as Gus above said its the feeling of accomplishment in the task as well. I know much of my "survival skill spractice" is geared around teaching my wife or nephews. I feel by teaching them, I am brushing up on my skills and also preparing others with knowledge.

 

[R.Russell]

Maybe people just spend too much time judging one another.

 

[jaymeister99]

I was reading another thread on this forum, and someone made a comment saying something like : People are worrying too much about survival, and not enough about just enjoying the outdoors. I've been thinking a lot about that post, and I think the poster is right. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy talking about, reading and practicing "survival" skill, as well as all of the cool survival gear. It just seems that TOO much emphisis is placed on survival. It seems like there must have been a point, before all of the survival shows and forums, when a survival course, and a PSK were things that would benifit someone who spent a lot of time outdoors (ie. hunters, mountain bikers, fisherman) in case something happened while they were doing what they do. It seems that now survival itself IS the hobby for a lot of people. Reading, posting, watching videos, buying gear, and even going out and practicing. But why do you need to worry about survivng in the first place if their isn't some other reason that you are outdoors in the first place? Are you learning to survive in case the next time you're out practicing survival skills, something happens? I know this doesn't apply to everyone here. I'm sure a lot of you were outdoors people before you got into survival. I'm also not trying to down anyone, it was just a thought I had after reading the post mentioned earlier.

IMO the bottom line is most people who are seriously into survival skills simply do it for the enjoyment of it. For me there are some aspects of survival training I really love to do. Some I really hate! Friction fire starting, can't stand it. I kow how to do it, but rarely do. Some people go out and do it every chance they get!

But don't forget you can never be too prepared. IMO survival situations are most likely to happen when you least expect it, and thats when you will wish you knew how to handle it.

 

[mdsmith]

Maybe people just spend too much time judging one another.

You must have misinterpreted my post. It was a question, not a judgement. I don't think I said anything that could be taken as derogatory, but if I did, I apologize.

As to the others, I also think this may get into the difference between survival and bushcraft, or the mind set behind it. I guess for me, when I hear bushcraft, I think of someone learning age old skills and crafts just for the pure enjoyment of it. When I hear survival, it makes me think that you are preparing for something.

Again, no judgement is being passed regardless of what you do. I am just curious what people are preparing for, and whether or not the preparing itself is getting in the way of the sheer enjoyment of just being outdoors.

 

[R.Russell]

Wasn't referring to you MD, but the definition of Bushcraft is.... "a long-term extension of survival skills."

I also like to make it fun and enjoy the outdoors. But some people like to prepare for the worst and we should respect that. I agree, sometimes its taken too far but can anybody be overprepared? I'd like to be overprepared in Alabama right now.

 

[Woods Walker]

Any reason to go out in the woods/backcountry is good in my book. I bet few if any debris shelters are made each year in the classic TV/internet survival situations. But like fishing, hunting, hiking and camping practicing craft is fun and knowledge can never be a bad thing.

Edit.

On a side note I have a BOB setup. I won’t be running to any convention center after a natural disaster. We all seen how well that worked out.

 

[jeverettk]

"People are worrying too much about survival, and not enough about just enjoying the outdoors."

I would've thought so until this last week when 1/10 of my friends on FB was posting pictures of their house being destroyed. I've really enjoyed the threads on this forum that lean more toward practical survival in real world situations as opposed to the "what would be the best chopper to smuggle onboard my plane in case the hatch popped open and I somehow survived the fall into the heart of the Amazon" line of thinking.

As such, I was thinking of posting a thread yesterday (ran out of time) asking for feedback on practical disaster survival. I might toss it up later b/c there are a few ways that I think it differs significantly from wilderness survival.

 

[baldtaco-II]

I was reading another thread on this forum, and someone made a comment saying something like : People are worrying too much about survival, and not enough about just enjoying the outdoors. I've been thinking a lot about that post, and I think the poster is right. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy talking about, reading and practicing "survival" skill, as well as all of the cool survival gear. It just seems that TOO much emphisis is placed on survival. It seems like there must have been a point, before all of the survival shows and forums, when a survival course, and a PSK were things that would benifit someone who spent a lot of time outdoors (ie. hunters, mountain bikers, fisherman) in case something happened while they were doing what they do. It seems that now survival itself IS the hobby for a lot of people. Reading, posting, watching videos, buying gear, and even going out and practicing. But why do you need to worry about survivng in the first place if their isn't some other reason that you are outdoors in the first place? Are you learning to survive in case the next time you're out practicing survival skills, something happens? I know this doesn't apply to everyone here. I'm sure a lot of you were outdoors people before you got into survival. I'm also not trying to down anyone, it was just a thought I had after reading the post mentioned earlier.

I get what you're saying completely, but my response is that “survival”, unqualified, is a polymorphous concept such that it is an ideal canvas upon which folk can lay down whatever fantasies appeal to them. That's why there cannot be an 'overload'.


On that, there is no satiation point. The goalposts can just be moved. You could even track this through the time line of some individuals. Mebe they started out as Preppers with underlying fears of Russia, or civil unrest, or a collapse of the economy or something, and they loaded up on how to store umpteen gallons of gasoline in the bunker and switching to valves 'cos they'd heard tales of EMP. Then they got bored with that and spiced it up a bit with “zombies are coming, head to the hills, buy a katana”. Then with the advent of a new trend, Neo-bushcraft, and the emergence of pop-survival books and TV shows, and the cult of the celebrity thing, didn't what to be the last goon in the trench peeking out, so switched paradigms to that kind of thing instead.


Ultimately, it is very different now to how it used to be simply by dint of the fact that people have too much time on their hands. Or put another way, it is mostly whimsical and recreational. I totally agree with you that the notion of survival for many has become an end in itself. It seems so seldom something that is task based according to a necessary subset of skills that apply to a job of work, or an incidental element that may occur during a different pursuit.


True, that's not applicable in all instances, but I do hold that as a solid generalization. It also comes as no surprise too because that is raison d'etre of this subset of the forum and others like it, recreation.


Fascinatingly to me it rather parallels 'knives'. Of all the people I know that need a knife in the outdoors to cut something, from military through to hunters and fishermen, not one of them posts on a knife forum, any knife forum, They buy a knife, perhaps something mundane like a Gerber Big Rock or a Normark filleter, it cuts stuff when they want it cut, end of subject. By contrast all the people I see that go out looking for excuses to chop a tree down are on forums like this cooing over what is the best knife in testing. They are exclusive to places like this. Same applies with suvival. To my mind there's a disproportionately low representation of people that work in genuinely perilous conditions that show up. One just doesn't see many mountaineers, polar explorers, potholers, RNLI, RAF search and rescue, Ultramarathon event folk showing up. I'm not saying they don't, but those people with topical / tasks based survival skills a blatantly dwarfed by the amount of people doing recreational stuff and the often quoted “overnighter” less than five miles from the vehicle.


Personally, I think it's a great thing provided one keeps perspective. I'm all in favour of self-improvement whether one wants to learn to write apps for their I-phone just for kicks, or macramé a crayfish pot, satisfy every possible achievement playing Bulletstorm or the hardest difficulty, or this. Whilst they may in many ways be pointless exercises they are no less pointless than just about every figure 4 trap I have ever seen a picture of here, or the “I cook my dinner over a dirty fire in an old bean tin, then make my tea in it”, and the opposite way round. The common feature is than none of it is necessary.


If we were terse and practical we'd resolve things a lot quicker too. There'd be task based questions and answers; “I'm going cockle picking at Morcambe Bay, am I likely to need a lifejacket?”, “what makes a pressurised petrol stove more efficient than gas canisters or cooking on an Esbit?”, “look – Spay on Glassing Nano coatings may well offer your retro-knife a new lease of life, you'll never have to poke it in a beaver's arse gland again, and might make your spoon taste better.”. All that. The fact is most off us seem to enjoy the bottomless-pit style. Look how much attention that “bare foot” topic got recently. Loads of us tuned in to here to anecdotes and comments about the old days and third world countries and all that. Hell, if any one of us was really keen to resolve that we could have simply contacted a big list of organisations that work in perilous conditions, or professional expeditions and so on an asked “is it ok if I go barefoot or without boots and just a pair of socks in the snow, or would I be a liability to myself and the team?”. Solved. I don't think any one of us here was especially keen even to resolve something even as obvious as that though.


It strikes me there never will be a 'survival' overload because none of us wants a satiation point. It's not the objective of this type of forum precisely because survival here is in the large part a polymorphous recreational activity and end in itself. I think if it were like a caving or a Topper sailing club forum and someone said; “if you know X, have X, and go to X you can almost certainly go in confidence my son” there would be a great deal of disappointment.

 

[tknife]

That sure is a broad brush you're painting with there BT-2

I get what you're saying completely, but my response is that “survival”, unqualified, is a polymorphous concept such that it is an ideal canvas upon which folk can lay down whatever fantasies appeal to them. That's why there cannot be an 'overload'.


On that, there is no satiation point. The goalposts can just be moved. You could even track this through the time line of some individuals. Mebe they started out as Preppers with underlying fears of Russia, or civil unrest, or a collapse of the economy or something, and they loaded up on how to store umpteen gallons of gasoline in the bunker and switching to valves 'cos they'd heard tales of EMP. Then they got bored with that and spiced it up a bit with “zombies are coming, head to the hills, buy a katana”. Then with the advent of a new trend, Neo-bushcraft, and the emergence of pop-survival books and TV shows, and the cult of the celebrity thing, didn't what to be the last goon in the trench peeking out, so switched paradigms to that kind of thing instead.


Ultimately, it is very different now to how it used to be simply by dint of the fact that people have too much time on their hands. Or put another way, it is mostly whimsical and recreational. I totally agree with you that the notion of survival for many has become an end in itself. It seems so seldom something that is task based according to a necessary subset of skills that apply to a job of work, or an incidental element that may occur during a different pursuit.


True, that's not applicable in all instances, but I do hold that as a solid generalization. It also comes as no surprise too because that is raison d'etre of this subset of the forum and others like it, recreation.


Fascinatingly to me it rather parallels 'knives'. Of all the people I know that need a knife in the outdoors to cut something, from military through to hunters and fishermen, not one of them posts on a knife forum, any knife forum, They buy a knife, perhaps something mundane like a Gerber Big Rock or a Normark filleter, it cuts stuff when they want it cut, end of subject. By contrast all the people I see that go out looking for excuses to chop a tree down are on forums like this cooing over what is the best knife in testing. They are exclusive to places like this. Same applies with suvival. To my mind there's a disproportionately low representation of people that work in genuinely perilous conditions that show up. One just doesn't see many mountaineers, polar explorers, potholers, RNLI, RAF search and rescue, Ultramarathon event folk showing up. I'm not saying they don't, but those people with topical / tasks based survival skills a blatantly dwarfed by the amount of people doing recreational stuff and the often quoted “overnighter” less than five miles from the vehicle.


Personally, I think it's a great thing provided one keeps perspective. I'm all in favour of self-improvement whether one wants to learn to write apps for their I-phone just for kicks, or macramé a crayfish pot, satisfy every possible achievement playing Bulletstorm or the hardest difficulty, or this. Whilst they may in many ways be pointless exercises they are no less pointless than just about every figure 4 trap I have ever seen a picture of here, or the “I cook my dinner over a dirty fire in an old bean tin, then make my tea in it”, and the opposite way round. The common feature is than none of it is necessary.


If we were terse and practical we'd resolve things a lot quicker too. There'd be task based questions and answers; “I'm going cockle picking at Morcambe Bay, am I likely to need a lifejacket?”, “what makes a pressurised petrol stove more efficient than gas canisters or cooking on an Esbit?”, “look – Spay on Glassing Nano coatings may well offer your retro-knife a new lease of life, you'll never have to poke it in a beaver's arse gland again, and might make your spoon taste better.”. All that. The fact is most off us seem to enjoy the bottomless-pit style. Look how much attention that “bare foot” topic got recently. Loads of us tuned in to here to anecdotes and comments about the old days and third world countries and all that. Hell, if any one of us was really keen to resolve that we could have simply contacted a big list of organisations that work in perilous conditions, or professional expeditions and so on an asked “is it ok if I go barefoot or without boots and just a pair of socks in the snow, or would I be a liability to myself and the team?”. Solved. I don't think any one of us here was especially keen even to resolve something even as obvious as that though.


It strikes me there never will be a 'survival' overload because none of us wants a satiation point. It's not the objective of this type of forum precisely because survival here is in the large part a polymorphous recreational activity and end in itself. I think if it were like a caving or a Topper sailing club forum and someone said; “if you know X, have X, and go to X you can almost certainly go in confidence my son” there would be a great deal of disappointment.

 

[hollowdweller]

To be honest I never really thought much about survival or preparedness before I read this forum.

Always enjoyed the outdoors though.

I have to say that while I don't consider myself a survivalist this forum has changed my mindset in a positive way.

It's made me always carry some flashlight and rain gear in my truck, and when I go in the woods I usually bring water and stuff that I never did before and it really helps my endurance.

The whole survival show thing maybe it sort of reflects the unstable economic times etc. But really I'd rather watch something like that than sports.

On this forum I don't think most of us really go overboard on the survival stuff. Most people here just dig being in the woods and want to share it with other folks.

 

[Shotgun]

I see three things generally.

There's people like said above who like living in the survival fantasy. It's enjoyable for them to think that their skills are going to make them "the last man standing" so to speak. Generally I don't see much of that on this board. Think hoarders and stockpilers who have 30 year mtn houses and 1000's of rounds of ammo on hand.

The second is what I see in most skill based threads on this site. It's generally from a few who have bushcraft as a hobby. RescueRiley is a prime example. They do skills cuz they enjoy it and are willing to share it with us.

The third category is most of us on this board I think and myself included. We go out and kick back when we go camping/hiking. Maybe do a carving project here, try a different fire prep there but most of the time is spent hiking or just sitting in a camp chair BS'ing over the fire. These are generally posts with a majority of pics with scenery. Pitdog is an example. Sure he does a skill here and there but it's mostly starting a fire for his tea.

You have to remember too that this is Wilderness and SURVIVAL Skills forum so most of the discussion is...survival skills. So there's naturally going to be a concentration of survival talk here.

 

[jaymeister99]

On Sept 10th, 2001 I would bet most people would have thought I was nuts for having an "assualt rifle" and a few hundred rounds of ammo. I didn't have it primarily to be "prepared" or for "survival" although it was definitely a "side reason" (if you will). On Sept 11, 2001 I had people asking me at work if I had any of my guns with me. The same people who DIDNT BELIEVE IN GUNS. The local gun shop sold out of ALL of their AR-15s AND AKs by the next day (easily over 40 rifles!!!). So apparently people who thought they would NEVER need to worry about survival suddenly realized how unprepared they were. I was not one of them.

Most people don't fully realize what they are "preparing" or even planning to "survive" until it happens.

 

[tonym]

On this forum I don't think most of us really go overboard on the survival stuff. Most people here just dig being in the woods and want to share it with other folks.

:thumbup:

That being said For me practicing bushcraft skills is entirely about the mastery (or in my case competancy) of the skill as the goal... I have no illusions of surviving an apocalyptic event or a civil revolution.. I like twirling wood and getting a coal.. I like sleeping in a shelter I've made with my hands, I like being able to snack on what I find as I go..or reading sign
I find it calming and reassuring.. on a level that I had forgottten for too long
but that;s me that;s what I like.. Other people like being prepared..they like makng kits.. and than taing them apart and refining them it is t speaks to them in many of the same ways i'm sure. I don't think it has to be one way or the other.. as both are related..
in the end do what you like, like what you do.. it;s your time in the woods.. whether you choose to spend it testing out your kit or lying on a mossy rock listening to the river flow, it;s entirely your perrogative.... and that is why perhaps we all keep going back.

Well said big guy:thumbup: (allthough not well written you semicolon freak)

 

[roughneckrob]

For me it is a little different. When I was a kid, I grew up poor. My father is a hunter/fisherman and if we didn't hunt/fish/trap we would starve. Today I am a driller on an oil rig here in Alberta and I am not poor. I am actually very well off these days but I can't stop thinking about those days. So, I keep up on these skills. I donate my meat to a local butcher who in turn gives it to other less fortunate folks. I have an AR-15 which I don't need, I have pistols which I don't need. I have them because I might need them and its fun. Its functional fun. Its a hobby which could become a way of life. Consider this, I could collect stamps but I'd rather collect gear. I could sit here on this computer all day or I could watch TV all day but I won't, I will go to the gym and train some CQC at some point during the day. I'll do this because I want to, I enjoy it.

 

[Mistwalker]

There is a list of reasons why I personally still practice survival skills. The pics below explain the number one reason.

 

[EMT_Lee]

Ok, well, I was the one who said it. I didn't mean it to come off as a judgmental, and I apologize if it did. Also, to the people saying things about urban survival... that wasn't really what I was talking about. I was more just saying that if people don't have interests outside of just dwelling on wilderness survival.. that probably won't be in a situation to ever use it. But, yeah, I know a lot of people here are also avid hikers/hunters/fishers/kayak/canoe/etc. And, if you're in to just the survival part... that's cool, too. I'd just encourage you to branch out and try some of the other good stuff Mother Nature has to offer.

 

[roughneckrob]

Ok, well, I was the one who said it. I didn't mean it to come off as a judgmental, and I apologize if it did. Also, to the people saying things about urban survival... that wasn't really what I was talking about. I was more just saying that if people don't have interests outside of just dwelling on wilderness survival.. that probably won't be in a situation to ever use it. But, yeah, I know a lot of people here are also avid hikers/hunters/fishers/kayak/canoe/etc. And, if you're in to just the survival part... that's cool, too. I'd just encourage you to branch out and try some of the other good stuff Mother Nature has to offer.

I agree with you 100% bro. I love nature but a person truly can't understand her until they learn to live with her. I wish I had more time to spend in the bush but life doesn't allow it.

Mistwalker

I also have a daughter and it is very important to pass these things off to the kids.