"Survival" Overload

[tknife]

I don't make the same comparison. I already know how to change a tire, so I don't need to practice doing it every time I go out for a drive on the Parkway. Every time that I go out fishing, I don't need to practice making a fire with a firesteel. I'm not saying I couldn't learn more about "survival" and such, but I'm fairly confident in myself, and I don't dwell on it enough to practice it all the time, when I could be thinking about the other fun thing I'm doing. Just like I don't dwell on hitting a nail on those beautiful mountain roads. That's not to say I don't like to pick up new skills every once in a while, but it's not an all the time mind-set.

I get your point, but you miss mine a little bit. Learning how to change a tire is a one time thing, like learning to ride a bike. You learn and you remember it. By your name, I assume you are an EMT. You know how to be one, but do you not continue to learn new things and grow in your profession? I'm but a lowly desk jockey, but we still have training on things to learn either new ways of doing things or grow the knowledge we already have, or find better ways of doing things.

 

[Erasmus]

"Fascinatingly to me it rather parallels 'knives'. Of all the people I know that need a knife in the outdoors to cut something, from military through to hunters and fishermen, not one of them posts on a knife forum, any knife forum, They buy a knife, perhaps something mundane like a Gerber Big Rock or a Normark filleter, it cuts stuff when they ..."

OK, I hunt, fish and backpack.

I bought a Sebenza after researching it on Bladeforums. On any given hunt, I carry a small plain classic Sebenza, a traditional wooden handled Mora, a SAK Recruit, occasionally a Fiskars hatchet, and a backup smallish 2 bladed SAK in my survival kit.

I only had three knives on me for my John Muir Trail trek. It felt kind of knife-stingy

 

[mtwarden]

well you certainly can't say this thread didn't make you think a little

I think there is some truth to the "overload" theory; just as there is truth in the importance of honing critical skills and developing a survival mindset

I pretty sure I'm not going out on a limb that most of us pursue outdoor interests outside of "survival", it's exactly these activities that at some point (hopefully earlier vs later) should start the thought process of "what if?"; that then leads pretty naturally for someone to inquire/learn/share those skills that are germane to their endeavors

I won't lie, I do get a wee frustrated with the EOTW/zombie/black helicopter/race war/fill in your own apocalyptic event posts, but I also believe strongly in free speech, so I just bite my tongue

 

[ROCK6]

I find it funny that back in the early 80’s, survival was given a bad connotation of bearded, conspiracy-freaks who expected an invasion from Russia or some other communist threat…running around the woods and mountains with their assault rifle and backpack. That appealed to me! Remember all those American Survival Guide magazines? It was a marketing scheme back then and it was played up by Red Dawn, Rambo and other such movies. I think the term “survivalist” developed as an extreme reputation and was quickly shunned and made fun of.

For me, that romanticism turned into a hobby. Sure, I grew up backpacking, canoeing, rock climbing, fishing, scouting, etc. but practicing and preparing for a “survival” situation turned into a hobby.

I still do outdoor activities and still plan my kit for being prepared, but it just becomes more habit forming than a concerted effort. Enter “woodlore” or “bushcraft”…two terms that often get meshed with “survival”, but I think they are different yet both address the necessities. I think bushcraft is more of a skills-based lifestyle that is really the central point of recreation or how one actually goes about spending their activities in the outdoors. Every term can (and often does) become a marketing scheme, that just how people continue to make business and entice consumers. Some of it is legitimate and genuine; much of it is snake-oil.

Quite often when I’m outdoors just getting away to relax, I’ll practice several skills. Most would easily apply to the moniker of “survival”, but what we address as survival now were just basic woodscraft skills of our past; common knowledge of how to work, enjoy or travel in the outdoors. I do think we, as a whole, have focused more on the gadgetry and man-made tools than the mindset and skills necessary to really learn and enjoy the nature around us. I do admit, it’s fun to prepare a kit, but the true enjoyment comes from being in the environment where it’s designed to assist or be used.

So, I find it funny that the term “survival” has gone full circle and is now back in vogue. What hasn’t changed is that manufactures will quickly take advantage of the popularity to pimp their products which are labeled as must-needed “survival” tools and toys.

I don’t think it’s a bad thing to think of “survival” when you’re in the outdoors enjoying your other recreational activities. You should always be aware of your surroundings, changing weather, potential threats or potential advantages such as a wild edibles, natural shelters, game trails or signs. Practicing bushcraft or some aspects of survival preparation and skills can become a recreational activity all on their own. Being prepared regardless of your activities is just prudent planning and shouldn’t get the reputation of sensationalizing this current surge of “survival” popularity.

ROCK6

 

[WILLIAM.M]

I find it funny that back in the early 80’s, survival was given a bad connotation of bearded, conspiracy-freaks who expected an invasion from Russia or some other communist threat…running around the woods and mountains with their assault rifle and backpack. That appealed to me! Remember all those American Survival Guide magazines? It was a marketing scheme back then and it was played up by Red Dawn, Rambo and other such movies. I think the term “survivalist” developed as an extreme reputation and was quickly shunned and made fun of.

For me, that romanticism turned into a hobby. Sure, I grew up backpacking, canoeing, rock climbing, fishing, scouting, etc. but practicing and preparing for a “survival” situation turned into a hobby.

I still do outdoor activities and still plan my kit for being prepared, but it just becomes more habit forming than a concerted effort. Enter “woodlore” or “bushcraft”…two terms that often get meshed with “survival”, but I think they are different yet both address the necessities. I think bushcraft is more of a skills-based lifestyle that is really the central point of recreation or how one actually goes about spending their activities in the outdoors. Every term can (and often does) become a marketing scheme, that just how people continue to make business and entice consumers. Some of it is legitimate and genuine; much of it is snake-oil.

Quite often when I’m outdoors just getting away to relax, I’ll practice several skills. Most would easily apply to the moniker of “survival”, but what we address as survival now were just basic woodscraft skills of our past; common knowledge of how to work, enjoy or travel in the outdoors. I do think we, as a whole, have focused more on the gadgetry and man-made tools than the mindset and skills necessary to really learn and enjoy the nature around us. I do admit, it’s fun to prepare a kit, but the true enjoyment comes from being in the environment where it’s designed to assist or be used.

So, I find it funny that the term “survival” has gone full circle and is now back in vogue. What hasn’t changed is that manufactures will quickly take advantage of the popularity to pimp their products which are labeled as must-needed “survival” tools and toys.

I don’t think it’s a bad thing to think of “survival” when you’re in the outdoors enjoying your other recreational activities. You should always be aware of your surroundings, changing weather, potential threats or potential advantages such as a wild edibles, natural shelters, game trails or signs. Practicing bushcraft or some aspects of survival preparation and skills can become a recreational activity all on their own. Being prepared regardless of your activities is just prudent planning and shouldn’t get the reputation of sensationalizing this current surge of “survival” popularity.

ROCK6

Great Reply!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kurodrago]

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Jtpf8N5IDE&feature=channel_video_title



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[kgd]

... And whilst anecdotal it did amuse me to note that every Blue Waffle here I've added to my bozo bin because of their repeated emotional outbursts, and their ad hominem playing the man and not the ball styles, have been exactly the kind of people that go on the “flapper, useless, I'd eat you first” pile.

always the cheerful one

It has been fun designing urban survival kits. researching flashlights etc.
What amazed me is the vast number of "survival stores" populating the web, and traditional knife stores, hardware stores, camping stores with mandatory survival sections. Most of the ready-to-buy 72-hr kits etc are full of inferior (read USELESS) things.

Good point. Personally I think most pre-bought kids including FAKs are sufficient for what is needed but the bigger problem with them are that folks buy a well organized case of goodies and stick it in their basement/garage still in its shrink wrap without ever a thought of whether they know how to use the kit contents. One of the main reasons about why building your own kit is a good idea is that you give a lot of forethought into its contents. Just the mental exercise of thinking through an item and how you might apply it is a form of training.

Personally I don't consider myself a survivalist. I really enjoy being in the outdoors, but I don't like being in the outdoors doing nothing but sitting on a lawn chair. A lot of skills I practice is an exercise in doing things because I enjoy doing them. At one time in my life, I used to go to the outdoors only to make distance on trails, at others it was focussed on going fishing. The problem with those activities is that I would often have to travel considerable distances just to get to the site and given career/family etc. that usually meant maybe one or two weeks in the bush.

When I became a member on this site I suddenly opened my eyes to many new skills that were a joy to practice and fiddle with and provided a great excuse to get outside. I didn't need to drive 6h away to find a suitable forest to play in. The 200 acre wilderness prairie two blocks away suddenly became a wonderful playground on which to practice many new things. Now I'm spending at least a half day under the cover of trees and with the sounds of nature every weekend. I found that some skills generated a bunch of side-benefits leading to other skills. For example, my fascination with bowdrill made me become much more observant about trees and identifying them in both winter and summer became a matter of real interest rather than simply learning it for learning sake. Every excuse that gets me motivated to get in more dirt time is good. Sure the interest in cutlery is what brought me to this place and initially it was knife testing and comparing them that really motivated me to get outside. Now that I sort have figured out my preferences in the cutlery department I tend to look at other skills to motivate me.

 

[coaldigger]

To be honest I never really thought much about survival or preparedness before I read this forum.

Always enjoyed the outdoors though.

I have to say that while I don't consider myself a survivalist this forum has changed my mindset in a positive way.

It's made me always carry some flashlight and rain gear in my truck, and when I go in the woods I usually bring water and stuff that I never did before and it really helps my endurance.

The whole survival show thing maybe it sort of reflects the unstable economic times etc. But really I'd rather watch something like that than sports.

On this forum I don't think most of us really go overboard on the survival stuff. Most people here just dig being in the woods and want to share it with other folks.

I agreewith HD on this subject. My dad raised me & my brother up hunting, fishing, camping, & woods bumming ! "Bushcraft" was taught to us by my dad, he was always teaching us everytime we hit the hills, as we got older, I never thought of this as "Wilderness Survival" or "BushCraft" but as the way you do things when your out in the hills, it was the natural/normal way to do things. So until I got on this forum I never thought about "Survival" but as HD said now I look at things a little differently (in a positive way). Overload...nahhh, just a bunch of guys enjoying the outdoors ! Keep on Keeping on guys !!!!

 

[jaymeister99]

I was just thinking today about the "Zombie Apocalypse" types. I never really gave them much credibility or attention. But one thing I had to ponder:

Is it more likely that I would wind up in an urban (or suburban) emergency situation than a wilderness one? ABSOLUTELY.

I spend a heck of a lot more time out and about, and less time in the woods. Despite being much better trained for a wilderness survival issue. A major hurricane, terrorist attack, and a slim possibly of a tsunami are real threats in my area.

Shouldn't there be more focus on everyday emergency survival?

 

[kgd]

There is a prepper contingent to this board and we have the odd urban survival threads. All the wilderness medical/first aid threads are also applicable to the urban situation. Again, most people are attracted to the outdoors as an activity based hobby more so than they are part of the disaster-crowd. I do keep some additional supplies at home to tap into water and food. I don't really have a pre-packed bug out bag, but my gear is very organized and I can pack a pack pretty quickly. Again, for me personally, the survival thing is not the big draw of why I do what I do.

 

[Angus McGunnigl]

I do understand the OP's point.
There is a foggy grey zone between prepping and paranoia/pessemism that I often hang out in.
I don't like being in that zone and have to head back over to the more calm prep side for a break from my own brain.

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

I was reading another thread on this forum, and someone made a comment saying something like : People are worrying too much about survival, and not enough about just enjoying the outdoors. I've been thinking a lot about that post, and I think the poster is right. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy talking about, reading and practicing "survival" skill, as well as all of the cool survival gear. It just seems that TOO much emphisis is placed on survival. It seems like there must have been a point, before all of the survival shows and forums, when a survival course, and a PSK were things that would benifit someone who spent a lot of time outdoors (ie. hunters, mountain bikers, fisherman) in case something happened while they were doing what they do. It seems that now survival itself IS the hobby for a lot of people. Reading, posting, watching videos, buying gear, and even going out and practicing. But why do you need to worry about survivng in the first place if their isn't some other reason that you are outdoors in the first place? Are you learning to survive in case the next time you're out practicing survival skills, something happens? I know this doesn't apply to everyone here. I'm sure a lot of you were outdoors people before you got into survival. I'm also not trying to down anyone, it was just a thought I had after reading the post mentioned earlier.

It's funny you say that. For about 15 years or so I didn't even know what I was doing was called "survival", for me it was just stuff we learned as kids that was fun. It even embarassed me in highschool because I thought it made me too "hick." (Now I realize it's something slowly fading away into obscurity) To me it was just stuff: like when some guy knows how to tie a fisherman's knot, where another guy couldn't tell you a bobber from a sinker.
I didn't even know it had a real name until I was about 23 (I'm still not convinced that "survival" is anymore than some guy's term used to make money some way), then a guy I worked with brought a Tom Brown, Jr. book to work and I thumbed through it. "I'm learning survival," he said. Which suprised the hell out of me. But, then I figured "the guy who wrote this Bible looking book had a Grandpop that was a certified Indian something-or-other and mine wasn't, so maybe I really didn't learn survival inasmuch as just stuff."
Then I saw "Survivorman" on Science Channel when we got our first satelite dish (I was 26, I think). I saw all the stuff he did and thought -- yeah, okay, boil water to kill germs. Duh. Mamaw did it everytime it flooded. Tinder, kindling, fuel. Yeah, Pop taught me this when I was seven; you can't set a log on fire with a match and green wood doesn't burn.
Now, I see people making thousands, even millions, on videos, tv shows, and classes on how to raise a garden, or can food for winter, or make fire without a match, or how to sharpen a knife, the lastest gizmo or super-duper Rambo knife, or telling people the common sense knowledge about getting wet and cold, etc. -- and I think "Now, I KNOW "survival" is just a made up term to sell a product. Most of it is common sense, some of it might be a bit specialized, but for the most part it's just jerry-rigging." Up until I was 22 I thought everybody had a Grandpop that taught them trees, or made a leaf collection every year in school as a mandatory project.

And then there's this whole "bushcraft" set, where some guy carves a lawn chair with a steak knife, and preaches about the pristine majesty of the "wilderness" (which I've never seen, the wilderness I know kicks baby birds out of nests and has mothers that eat their own children). So far, all I've seen is just a slight modification on the "Stuff" with some "SURVIVAL" thrown in.


I never learned all the fancy knots (I think I know about three, and I've NEVER found a use for that Sheepshank). I don't own a closet full of wool and none of my knives cost more than $150 (which is still too much, IMHO -- especially since my $30 pocket knife sees more use than they do.). I have one t-shirt that says "Northface" -- it was a gift. I play around with traps and snares, but have only used them once -- to keep a troublesome cat from underneath my house (it was tearing my insulation down). I never knew "hobo stoves" and Coke can reels (We always used a fat stick), and safety pin hooks were anything other than just stuff us poor "holler" kids did to pass the time.

So, no, you aren't alone. I'm starting to think survival is a gimmick term -- especially here lately with all the "credential" arguments.

 

[kgd]

KEmSAT - it is true that some folks use the term 'bushcraft' and other use the term 'survival' as a marketing ploy and that is a pathway to readership exposure, advertising and prospective clients. Yet, I don't know if this is any different than the general store having a 'hunting' department and 'fishing' department that will sell you more sparkly lures than colours in a rainbow. Hunting and fishing interests spawns their own TV, magazines and even dedicated cable channels along with forums and companies dedicated to supplying baseball cap wearing fishers everything they could possible want.

I'm not sure I subscribe to your definition of bushcraft, but it is a label that appeals to folks who reject the high tech world of backpacking and weight-centric viewpoint. Not that either perspective is any better than the other but once you have categories and labels then you get an extreme end of that category that begins to formulate a philosophy. As soon as that is defined, then gear begins to be optimized to satisfy perceived market demand for said philosophy. Hey, if you are an extremem backpacker why settle for a titanium spoon when you can have a titanium spoon with ligthening holes in it? (for an extra cost). I don't see the marketers as the ones who create the categories or labels per se and that is what you seem to be suggesting. The marketing types are just exploiting a following or audience that they found to exist and which was generated under a given label by grass routes leaders in a particular movement. Again, I don't credit marketers with the intelligence and strategic capability to actually formulate a philosophy of doing things and a movement of people who subscribe to it. They just put their feelers out, recognize an audience exists and then tap into that. The pickings are even more attractive when they are the first to the door and competition for specialized products are limited.

Considering this, it is no wonder 'survival' finds its own market niche and mass appeal with folks willing to exploit such a community. Unlike 'bushcraft' and 'backpacking' which compete for folks with broad interest in the outdoors but share different philosophies on activities and gear priorities, survival can tap into the much broader and combined urban and wilderness masses. So for all those folks who think going to the ballpark is their outdoor experience, they can at least relate to hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, nuclear disasters, car crashes, crazy gopher invasions and $6/gallon gas prices. This is a consumer base, and dog-gonnet, somebodies' going to exploit it!

If Nesmuk and Kephart were around today would they be backpackers? bushcrafters? survival experts? They had the skills to be any of them and all three fields claim them to be forefathers of their respective movements. In the end though, each of these individuals chose to make a living, or at least supplement their income, by writing magazine articles and books sharing their outdoor experience. I suspect if they lived today that they would champion themselves in a defined subset field above, realize that books are but one of many avenues for income and education, have youtube videos and perhaps a TV-show. For every Nesmuk and Kephart, there were thousands of folks who chose not to write books or magazine articles and just live their backcountry/mountain man lives in their own way. However, I don't begrudge Nesmuk and Kephart for their contributions. Make no doubt that they were marketing themselves as well.

Alternatively we also see a huge collective audience of contributors, not just consumers, on internet forums, youtube videos ect. What sparks the motivation of these individuals to share their knowledge, interact with, suffer youtube comments from 13 year olds, and generally spend time developing themselves and others free of charge, free of advertising dollars, free of copyrights? I suppose some see this as an avenue to commercial success. Others just like to communicate, educate and interact with peers. They subscribe to these same sub-themes, sometimes fall prey to marketing hype, love to test gear etc. But I wouldn't paint their motivations for using terms like 'bushcraft', 'survival', 'backpacking', 'hunting', 'fishing' as a carefully planned marketing scheme. They are just part of a self-defined community.

 

[upnorth]

I was reading another thread on this forum, and someone made a comment saying something like : People are worrying too much about survival, and not enough about just enjoying the outdoors. I've been thinking a lot about that post, and I think the poster is right. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy talking about, reading and practicing "survival" skill, as well as all of the cool survival gear. It just seems that TOO much emphasis is placed on survival. It seems like there must have been a point, before all of the survival shows and forums, when a survival course, and a PSK were things that would benefit someone who spent a lot of time outdoors (ie. hunters, mountain bikers, fisherman) in case something happened while they were doing what they do. It seems that now survival itself IS the hobby for a lot of people. Reading, posting, watching videos, buying gear, and even going out and practicing. But why do you need to worry about surviving in the first place if their isn't some other reason that you are outdoors in the first place? Are you learning to survive in case the next time you're out practicing survival skills, something happens? I know this doesn't apply to everyone here. I'm sure a lot of you were outdoors people before you got into survival. I'm also not trying to down anyone, it was just a thought I had after reading the post mentioned earlier.

Dead on buddy and thanks for the refreshing view. I just bought Les Strouds ''Survive'' book. But, I'm also putting a master link in my motorcycle chain, getting my fishing license and packing the metal detectors in my car trunk. I have many outdoor pursuits which may possibly get me stuck in the outdoors over night unintentionaly. I take the possibility seriously and prepare for the worst. I also get turned off a bit by the extremists. Outdoor wilderness survival, and yes I've been to\lived in extremely remote locations in northern Canada, is but one aspect of my multifaceted outdoor interests.

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

KGD>>

Well said. Good, solid reasoning. Don't ever let it happen again or I shall be forced to smack you.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Is it more likely that I would wind up in an urban (or suburban) emergency situation than a wilderness one? ABSOLUTELY.

Natural disasters like floods, tornadoes, severe winter storms, hurricanes, earthquakes, and serious power outages create conditions, like the wilderness, where you may be unexpectedly thrown, more or less, on your own resources for a time.

As in any crisis, you will do better in an urban wilderness if you think straight, prioritize and plan, are creative, and remain determined to survive. Preparation will likely make your situation better. You may have water issues, need to start a fire, need to navigate, need to stay dry (or prevent overheating), need to signal, or have to deal with first aid. Survival skills.

Most of us hope to never have to use these skills, as we hope not to need collision insurance. But neither the skills nor the insurance are bad ideas.

 

[bcornelis]

Interesting post. I ususally take a grab and go survival packpack on simple hikes arond the neighbourhood (which includes forest and urban hiking trails). Last year I cut my hand fairly badly on a fall and I was sure glad I had the first aid kit.

I spend lots of time outdoors hiking, canoing and backpacking and try to focus on the experience but it is always good to know that I have the knowledge and equipment to survive anything that life sends my way.

 

[coaldigger]

It's funny you say that. For about 15 years or so I didn't even know what I was doing was called "survival", for me it was just stuff we learned as kids that was fun. It even embarassed me in highschool because I thought it made me too "hick." (Now I realize it's something slowly fading away into obscurity) To me it was just stuff: like when some guy knows how to tie a fisherman's knot, where another guy couldn't tell you a bobber from a sinker.
I didn't even know it had a real name until I was about 23 (I'm still not convinced that "survival" is anymore than some guy's term used to make money some way), then a guy I worked with brought a Tom Brown, Jr. book to work and I thumbed through it. "I'm learning survival," he said. Which suprised the hell out of me. But, then I figured "the guy who wrote this Bible looking book had a Grandpop that was a certified Indian something-or-other and mine wasn't, so maybe I really didn't learn survival inasmuch as just stuff."
Then I saw "Survivorman" on Science Channel when we got our first satelite dish (I was 26, I think). I saw all the stuff he did and thought -- yeah, okay, boil water to kill germs. Duh. Mamaw did it everytime it flooded. Tinder, kindling, fuel. Yeah, Pop taught me this when I was seven; you can't set a log on fire with a match and green wood doesn't burn.
Now, I see people making thousands, even millions, on videos, tv shows, and classes on how to raise a garden, or can food for winter, or make fire without a match, or how to sharpen a knife, the lastest gizmo or super-duper Rambo knife, or telling people the common sense knowledge about getting wet and cold, etc. -- and I think "Now, I KNOW "survival" is just a made up term to sell a product. Most of it is common sense, some of it might be a bit specialized, but for the most part it's just jerry-rigging." Up until I was 22 I thought everybody had a Grandpop that taught them trees, or made a leaf collection every year in school as a mandatory project.

And then there's this whole "bushcraft" set, where some guy carves a lawn chair with a steak knife, and preaches about the pristine majesty of the "wilderness" (which I've never seen, the wilderness I know kicks baby birds out of nests and has mothers that eat their own children). So far, all I've seen is just a slight modification on the "Stuff" with some "SURVIVAL" thrown in.


I never learned all the fancy knots (I think I know about three, and I've NEVER found a use for that Sheepshank). I don't own a closet full of wool and none of my knives cost more than $150 (which is still too much, IMHO -- especially since my $30 pocket knife sees more use than they do.). I have one t-shirt that says "Northface" -- it was a gift. I play around with traps and snares, but have only used them once -- to keep a troublesome cat from underneath my house (it was tearing my insulation down). I never knew "hobo stoves" and Coke can reels (We always used a fat stick), and safety pin hooks were anything other than just stuff us poor "holler" kids did to pass the time.

So, no, you aren't alone. I'm starting to think survival is a gimmick term -- especially here lately with all the "credential" arguments.

This is exactly what I was trying to say 'Ol Bud...this is the way us "head of the holler Hillbillys" grew up, it was a normal way of life to me & my family & to most of the people around this area. People in the City area or people with money didn't really have a need to learn or do this stuff, they either had someone do it for them or they just purchased it. I am no "Expert Survivalist" but in my area...Yes I can take care of my family & myself if need be Urban Survival is another story, preparing for a natural disaster & knowing what to do is something that everyone should know, especially if you live in an area where say earthquakes & hurricans are a regular threat. In my area it's usually a Flash flood & maybe a Toronado (rarely).

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

CD>>

From the pics I saw of that last flood that hit Kimper and parts of Johns Creek, no amount of preparing would have done any good. It looked like a "get the hell out right-damn-now or drown" type situation. A guy I work with said someone he knows didn't even have time to get out before it wiped out his driveway and knocked the house off the foundation.

 

[coaldigger]

CD>>

From the pics I saw of that last flood that hit Kimper and parts of Johns Creek, no amount of preparing would have done any good. It looked like a "get the hell out right-damn-now or drown" type situation. A guy I work with said someone he knows didn't even have time to get out before it wiped out his driveway and knocked the house off the foundation.

It wasn't as bad here on Kimper as it was down on Johnscreek but Yes it was Unreal !!!