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Survive knives forum should be closed

Discussion in 'Hall of Shame' started by shinyedges, Aug 1, 2018.

  1. shinyedges

    shinyedges Unfaltering Love & Undeviating Will Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 5, 2012

    Survive! Knives represent this forum negatively in several ways. When new people come to bladeforums and search through our manufacturer list, they see survive! knives and are unaware of all the shenanigans the company has pulled through the years.

    They have customers waiting for knives for 4 years now, while they continue to produce "seconds" and "ugly betties (3rds)" and sell them. At this point they censor people who try to warn new comers in their forum that they may not receive a knife they paid for in the next few years.

    When people have a bad experience with survive! knives they may associate survive! knives with this forum. Which regulars here, know full well, that survive! Isn't the norm here on the forum, it is the exception.

    Survive! Doesn't uphold the same level of standards as every other manufacturer on this forum does.
  2. danbot

    danbot Gold Member Gold Member

    Oct 31, 2009
    And this: https://bladeforums.com/threads/the-new-survive.1501589/page-6#post-17897815
    How does it take more than a year from the initial announcement to introduce a new model that is intended to speed things up? :confused:
    Pilsner, Nixelplix, craytab and 2 others like this.
  3. Quiet

    Quiet "That guy" Gold Member

    Oct 11, 2013
    Well, they're probably waiting on more steel blanks, because the first run of those new model blanks showed up at Guy's shop and the box they came in was slightly dented in one corner, so now those knives will be resold as seconds. Standard tactic.
  4. craytab


    Jan 26, 2012
    @Spark this will help get his attention.

    I completely agree. They shouldn't be part of this community. I'll add to what has been said above that they on more than one occasion have been charging a restocking fee on years old canceled orders for knives that do not exist. Here's a link: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/made-a-tough-decision-this-weekend.1596181/page-2#post-18271977

    The most egregious act in my opinion is making people what 3 years for a "first" knife they paid up front for, while selling "2nds" and "3rds" to new customers who only wait months. In fact, survive even sells these seconds before they know they will have them, before they are made. Shameful business practices.

    Spark, we've had custom makers and craftsmen given the boot for doing the same thing. Survive does this on a much larger scale and with moniker of a bladeforums manufacturer.
    MR HAPPY, prestige, L.H.S and 11 others like this.
  5. SpySmasher

    SpySmasher Lead Guitar Basic Member

    Sep 1, 2016
    It's freaking obvious they should be gone.

    What baffles me is why Survive wants to be here.
  6. Quiet

    Quiet "That guy" Gold Member

    Oct 11, 2013
    This. THIS. THIIIISSSS!!!!!! What mental and moral gymnastics did they pull to even begin to persuade themselves that charging a restocking fee for something that doesn't even exist yet was a good idea? I mean, I get it, Guy's car payment was due and they wanted to buy groceries that week, but come on. It's time for these shysters to hit the bricks.
  7. craytab


    Jan 26, 2012
    That is a good point as well. Most here see through their scam. There are only a few staunch supporters left and even they are coming to a rational conclusion that survive is full of it.

    Plus, their subforum is very poorly moderated. They let people talk all sorts of junk about them. Then, every once in a while the will close threads and try to keep it all positive. I'm fine with a manufacturer's forum being all rainbows and sunshine. I think that is what they are for. But survive only shows up every once and a while. There are no enforced rules.

    Really, survive only uses their manufacturer sub and privileges here to spread more lies about their company and try to continue to placate current and potential customers into the false sense that they are not the shady scam of a company most of us can see that the are.
    wazu013 and Quiet like this.
  8. shinyedges

    shinyedges Unfaltering Love & Undeviating Will Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 5, 2012
    They still get sales from people here on the forum, if they weren't I bet they'd close it.
    Organic556 and Quiet like this.
  9. craytab


    Jan 26, 2012
    Yes. It is also a venue in which they can post and run. They are completely using this community to sell knives, promote themselves, and legitimize their scam.

    Look at all the posts Ellie has made. She only chimes in to make excuses or update that they are making changes for the better. Nothing changes though.

    Like I said before, bfc has not put up with this kind of shady business practices with small makers and craftsmen. Why are we putting up with the same from a manufacturer?
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2018
    moshow9 and Quiet like this.
  10. shinyedges

    shinyedges Unfaltering Love & Undeviating Will Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 5, 2012
    Agreed. They are doing all those things at the expense of bladeforums members. :thumbsdown:

    Not a single other manufacturer on this board does that.
    Organic556 and Quiet like this.
  11. mete


    Jun 10, 2003
    His tactics are a variation of the Ponzi scheme. Shut it down !
  12. SURVIVE! Ellie

    SURVIVE! Ellie

    Apr 21, 2014
    Let's clear up a few things. We aren’t on BladeForums to sell products. It is a place for our customers to share photos, ask questions, discuss models, and just generally come together and hang out. If someone visits our forum they can figure out pretty quickly that we are behind and that they will not be able to purchase anything from us right now. And that is before they even head over to our website.

    Our oldest orders right now are from March 2015 when we did the SURVIVE! Starter campaign. More than 80% of the original Starter orders have been completed. The only remaining orders from that promotion are for models that we do not have all of the materials for yet, though they are both in production (see our newsletters and/or Instagram for GSO-3.5 and GSO-12 updates).

    We do not and have never purposely “produced” Factory 2nds or Ugly Betty blades. They are things we have come across as we are working on fulfilling our regular preorders. One of our past providers had let Guy know to expect that 30% of every production run wouldn’t be good, so those are part of that.

    As far as censoring, I have never changed, deleted, or moved another person’s post or thread. When folks post concerns about their orders, delays, etc, it is responded to and then the thread may be closed to prevent another long, drawn out thread of people saying the same things over and over, often leading to personal insults and mayhem.

    Most customers are happy with our customer service because we answer every call and email promptly and with respect. We’ve also issued every refund that has been requested.

    There seems to be some confusion about our cancellation fee. We instituted it for several reasons but mostly to cover payment processing costs and to encourage people to think before placing an order. The fee is only for orders after January 01, 2017 and has never been imposed on refunds for orders older than that. The cancellation fee is also automatically waived for orders that are past the stated delivery date. The exception to that has been for the GSO-4 Limited which has a larger fee to help us recover the costs for the custom-made sheaths that we purchased from Sagewood Gear. Though we have discussed it and decided to provide the full refund for those since they are also late.

    One of you says I “censor people” and then someone else complains about it being poorly moderated and that we “let people talk all sorts of junk.” So, which is it? We have been making rules and they are enforced. I don’t always close threads right away, because I believe in the 1st Amendment. While we are not always actively posting, we do read everything on our subforum and check in almost every day.

    Most of our customers know we aren’t a scam. We are making knives, fulfilling orders, and haven’t taken a knife order in over 9 months. Before that, the more recent preorders were limited by numbers and/or time to help keep our backlog down. We also did our best to actually discourage people from placing preorders unless they understood the wait and were accepting of it.

    Have we had production delays? Yep. Are we behind? Definitely. But we are still in operation, decreasing our backlog, and coming up with plans to do things better in the future. As I mentioned above, our subforum is a place for customers to share photos and hangout as a community.

    I know there is a thread in Whine & Cheese where people get pumped about the downfall of others. Those people generally keep it in there but every so often they seem to feel the need to come out hunting for fuel for their musings. Their accusations shouldn’t affect our subforum.
  13. shinyedges

    shinyedges Unfaltering Love & Undeviating Will Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 5, 2012
    You've been saying those EXACT same excuses for years. You don't have all the materials for orders placed 3 years ago?!? Listen to yourself, 3 years and you can't get materials?

    Your few remaining "fans" are dwindling here because your same beat to death old story about things getting better is smoke and mirrors.

    You lose 30% of a run?!? To "seconds" and "ugly betties" ? I'm a machinist and cnc programmer, sorry, I don't believe you.

    By your own account, 20% of orders from 2015 are still unfulfilled.

    So, what exactly did you clear up here? You regurgitate the same lines, time after time, and sell "seconds" and "ugly betties" while people from 2015 don't have their knife.

    Planning on losing 30% of every run.... You have to be joking. But I doubt it.

    And whine and cheese has absolutely NOTHING to do with why your business has been continuously criticized. Or does personal responsibility not apply to you?

    Funny, the kind of people that blame their short comings on other things rather than admit the truth, pop up here and blame w&c for their problems.

    Your problems stem from unfulfilled orders from years ago while you make and sell knives to new customers. Period. Not whine and cheese.

    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  14. shinyedges

    shinyedges Unfaltering Love & Undeviating Will Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 5, 2012
    Here is more of the same excuses you've posted:

    Since you closed these threads I can't quote them, so I copy and pasted your excuses:


    "I admitted long ago, and several times since, that the Starter campaign and subsequent preorders were not the finest moment in SURVIVE! history. However, we did exactly what we said we were going to do at the time. We bought steel, equipment, invested in larger production run sizes, and contrary to what some people have claimed we even set funds aside to cover expenses during production. We also invested in the future of the business by making a down payment on the building, in hopes that we could soon move away from renting a finite space to owning somewhere with room to grow. This down payment was roughly equal to one third of an average production run. We still have over $60,000 of that steel, over $100,000 in equipment, several hundreds of knives worth of materials and several large deposits in to our vendors.

    In addition to the above and money spent on bolstering run sizes, operating expenses, and refunds, PayPal is currently holding on to $21,000 (and growing). They say this hold is meant to be in case of refund requests, but then they won’t let us use the funds for any of the refunds that I issue. So it just sits there growing with each new PayPal purchase, until they start trickling some of it back to us in a few months. Here is a quote from the email we received from them:

    “The decision regarding your reserve setting was based on our review of the level of risk associated with your account. We looked at several factors to determine the high level of risk associated with your account. These factors include:
    · Delivery timeframe - Extended length of your delivery timeframe.
    · High risk industry - You are selling merchandise or services in what we consider to be a high risk industry.
    · High risk or changed business model – There has been a change in your business model or your business model is considered high risk due to one, or a combination of the following (list is not all inclusive) – how and when items or services are delivered, items or services being sold, or inventory management.”

    We are curious to see what happens once the SK Series is fully operational, fixing the delivery timeframe and high risk/changed business model issues. Based on conversations with some other folks and the “high risk industry” statement, we are concerned PayPal may be sending the knife industry in the same direction it went with the gun industry. Time will tell.

    As far as what our plan is to fix the ordering issues, we covered that here: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-new-survive.1501589/

    Introducing the SK Series will help offset demand, so that we can focus exclusively on GSO Knives while folks can still get a really nice version of the same designs. The SK Series is still a product that needs to be made by people, it will be made more quickly but it still needs to be produced. We announced it ahead of production because we wanted to let folks know what our plan was to get out of the preorder rut. It also allowed us to get a better handle on how much interest there was so we would have a better idea of how many to order. If we don’t have enough they will sell out quickly and then we will all have to wait months for more. If we make too many we are going to have more money locked away in inventory.

    Things are starting to settle back in after the fire so we will be back in the workshop regularly again. We haven’t had a chance to update the delivery wording on the website yet but will be working on that over the next couple of weeks. I will make sure the refund requests are all issued by the end of next week. We will also hold off on adding any new weekly sales until we are caught up on those existing orders.

    Bladeforums is an area that is meant to be a more relaxed and fun community environment. Because of the regular accusations that have already been addressed and the random spamming, Guy won’t come here right now. He beats himself up enough, he doesn’t need you guys to do it for him. He did talk with Lance and when he mentioned making a post Guy hoped that would be enough to help appease some of the concerns.

    We do provide regular updates and have been up front when we have encountered issues that will lead to further delays, including when it is something of a personal nature. We answer the phone any time we are in the office and Jordyn replies to every person’s emails and voicemails. Since this is more of an informal environment, we encourage anyone with questions or concerns to send us an email to our official inbox: [email protected]."
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
    Pilsner likes this.
  15. shinyedges

    shinyedges Unfaltering Love & Undeviating Will Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 5, 2012
    More copy and pasted excuses because the thread was closed:


    "Sorry Andy, I have been in the shop QCing blades, building orders and shipping things out. I took some time this morning to be in the office to get caught up on the computer things. I actually just submitted that refund and then came over here to check in, since I haven't had the time to be on here in a while either."


    "As we have mentioned before, our top priority is quality. There is a lot of time that goes into each order, even when everything is going together smoothly. We have been dealing with several different issues that needed worked through to make sure each of these knives will have amazing fit and finish. These issues are not our fault, but they are our responsibility. We are continuing to streamline our processes to make sure the quality stays up as we scale up our output. How many companies have you heard about that "used to make really great knives but started having quality control issues once they got popular"? We don't want to be one of those companies.

    We have been making changes that have been improving efficiency in the workshop. Guy had a huge breakthrough recently, which will have a bigger impact. There are still several models being worked on right now and we are doing our best to get through all of the existing orders."


    "Thanks for attempting to move this to the appropriate thread Silver. We have had a few folks mention that they just don't come to this forum anymore because of the mood but it does seem like it is starting to improve. We do tend to send a lot of folks to here when they have questions, so I am hopeful that things can get turned around.

    I do want to address a couple of your points there though.

    There have definitely been some actions taken to help resolve complaints. We have stopped taking orders for models that haven’t started production yet. We are doing our best to extend quoted wait times, as you can see from more recent listings. Language has been updated on the website and in newsletters. We are continuing to provide regular updates, which are based on the information we have at the time. We have brought in an extra person to improve response times. We are always looking out for ways to improve and better serve our customers. The difficulty is the wide range of people who purchase from us. While some folks think the preordering is absurd, we still receive several calls/emails per week from people don't understand why we aren't still offering preordering. Many of them say how it is so easy and that they just want to know they are on the list, guaranteed to get one. We are still looking for the balance there.

    Additionally, we shipped over 100% more knives in both October and November than we had for September. There isn’t going to be a magic button where we suddenly have all of the preorders fulfilled, but I think that still counts as a massive change. There are still a few other changes we are starting to implement which will continue to improve output."

    We are doing our best to get better with delivery estimates. Language has been updated on our website and we are always looking out for better ways to communicate through there. The GSO-4 Limited time frame was purposely extended quite a bit to account for delays. Our November 1st Friday update was accurate. The December 1st Friday update is on schedule. We are a little behind on some of the weekly Factory 2nds sales because we decided to put more emphasis on the older orders as we get close to Christmas. We are working on the GSO-2.7 orders right now and they going much more smoothly than the GSO-4.7s. I have mentioned to folks that the GSO-2.7 presales would take a few weeks to get through and that we would be working on them as soon as we got more of the GSO-4.7s out of the way. The goal is to have all GSO-2.7 preorders and presales shipped by the new year. I can't promise that every single one will be out because sometimes things happen that are beyond our control, but we are doing everything in our power to make it happen.

    We had absolutely no idea the SURVIVE! Starter orders would be taking so long to fulfill, but there were a lot of things that got worked through with the GSO-5.1 and GSO-4.7 runs. With those runs completed, production will be picking up speed.

    Our customer service is also improving tremendously with Jordyn on the team. She typically answers emails the same day, unless it is a weekend or holiday. Please call or email us any time, we are happy to answer any questions or talk over concerns."


    "That is what I was getting at, we are very close to the "show you" part. I think you guys are going to be pretty happy by the start of November."
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
    Pilsner likes this.
  16. shinyedges

    shinyedges Unfaltering Love & Undeviating Will Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 5, 2012
    I could go on, seriously. The pile of excuses goes back years and is 10 miles high.

    Yet all these years later, still no material for knives?
  17. SURVIVE! Ellie

    SURVIVE! Ellie

    Apr 21, 2014
    Excuses? I stated facts in response to your post.

    We aren't making one knife at a time, we do large production runs of one model at a time. So no, we don't have all of the handles and sheaths for every model completed all at once. But, as I mentioned, both of the 2 remaining Starter Campaign models are being worked on right now. If you want more details, go to our subforum, instagram, or sign up for our newsletter.

    I said "One of our past providers had let Guy know to expect that 30% of every production run wouldn’t be good." I think the important words you missed there are 'past providers'. We thought 30% seemed like a lot too, so we changed things up. We uprooted our lives to get closer to a new vendor in order to improve efficiency as much as possible.

    You just posted several quotes from me taking personal responsibility. We have definitely made some bad calls in the past. If there was a magic fix it button I would have been smashing that things down ages ago. We don't enjoy being this behind or disappointing customers. The solution is to keep working on fulfilling orders, which is exactly what we are doing.

    I didn't say no material for knives, I said we don't have all of the materials for certain production runs. For the 2 runs I was talking about: the GSO-3.5 blades are mostly done and handle materials are in house waiting to be machined and GSO-12 blades are cut out and heading to heat treat. For all other models: we have steel for every order that has been placed. With our recent move and changes, we have taken over ordering handle materials so we are working on getting stocked up on those sheets as well.
  18. shinyedges

    shinyedges Unfaltering Love & Undeviating Will Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 5, 2012
    Right, I'm sure. " being worked on" add that to the laundry list of "facts (aka excuses)" that are easily found.

    It's simple, give people their knives or come up with another excuse on why it's 3 years late... Which one did you do?

    I'm dying to know how you can presale a "second" that isn't even made?

    Why is new models a priority over paid in full customers?

    Let me get this straight, people paid you for a knife, you then took their money and switched to making other models? Yeah.... Explain that one?
  19. shinyedges

    shinyedges Unfaltering Love & Undeviating Will Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 5, 2012
    Look at all the other manufacturers that have forums. Spyderco, Benchmade.... Does survive even fit in with that category? None of the other guys are stiffing people for years because they "switched models".

    One of these is NOT like the others. Survive! Is a stain on this forum and represents bladeforums poorly.
    JKC88, MR HAPPY, winger51 and 8 others like this.

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