I have messed up a bit on some of my knives. Sometimes a screw just keeps spinning and wont come out and before long I can tell that the screw has been tampered with.
Taking knives apart
- Thread starter Sal Glesser
- Start date
I have messed up a bit on some of my knives. Sometimes a screw just keeps spinning and wont come out and before long I can tell that the screw has been tampered with.
I've been using and accumulating knives about 45 years now, I guess. I recall seeing the Spyderco ads in Backpacker magazine when I was a kid, must have been in the late seventies. Was always curious about them, but didn't get around to owning any until much later.
My main Spyderco interest is the PM2, which I currently have 16 of, and will undoubtedly buy more. They've pretty much put my Sebenzas out of business as EDC knives. I have an S30V, M4, M390 and 52100 in pocket rotation. The others are semi-queens. One thing I really like about these knives is the variety of blade steels. And on a personal note, I've got to say Sal, you've done an incredible job building this company and product, and you should be very proud of that.
Seems to me that a knife like the PM2 is best maintained and adjusted by periodic disassembly. That is certainly the best way to clean and fully lubricate the pivot. It's a simple task that can be easily performed by anyone with reasonable mechanical comprehension. And I'll admit, I do like to tinker a bit. I don't have to make a profit from working on my knives, so can take as much time as I want. I also know specifically how I want the pivots adjusted. And in the case of the 52100, I wanted to patina the entire blade on my user copy.
So ya, I paid for the knives, I own them, and I'll take them apart as I see fit. I've never sold or returned a knife in my life, and would not dream of deceiving someone in that way. And I’m not at all concerned with warranty service.
Recently I went through the exercise of getting some spare pivot and standoff screws from Spyderco, which I posted about a while back, but didn’t really get a response to. It took a while to get through to C/S, but they were willing to send me some screws. I got the lecture about things being broken, potentially not being authentic, no internal parts going out, etc. Tried to explain I just wanted some spare screws, but I’m not sure that computed.
On the tinkering side, my main PM2 interest is just getting my preferred pivot/play balance. I like to have zero play and a little more pivot friction than I gather most do. Interesting thing about PM2’s is the progression of factory settings in this respect. My older ones all have a little play, but most of the newer ones are much tighter. For example the Blue Bento M390’s have more factory play than the Red DLT’s do. The Maxamet and 52100’s also have near zero lateral play, but rotate very freely. I presume the pivots themselves have been tweaked as part of the ongoing Q/C process.
Anyway, that’s probably enough rambling. Just wanted to contribute my perspective on this issue. And I’ll close by saying again, I am extremely happy and impressed with Spyderco’s products, and I fully understand there has to be some sort of policy on this. I’m probably in the minority, but would be happy to pay $300 for a PM2 that was really meant to be user-maintained in the way a Sebenza is. And I’d also like to be able to buy spare internal parts. But I understand why Spyderco doesn’t want to be in that business, and that’s OK.
My main Spyderco interest is the PM2, which I currently have 16 of, and will undoubtedly buy more. They've pretty much put my Sebenzas out of business as EDC knives. I have an S30V, M4, M390 and 52100 in pocket rotation. The others are semi-queens. One thing I really like about these knives is the variety of blade steels. And on a personal note, I've got to say Sal, you've done an incredible job building this company and product, and you should be very proud of that.
Seems to me that a knife like the PM2 is best maintained and adjusted by periodic disassembly. That is certainly the best way to clean and fully lubricate the pivot. It's a simple task that can be easily performed by anyone with reasonable mechanical comprehension. And I'll admit, I do like to tinker a bit. I don't have to make a profit from working on my knives, so can take as much time as I want. I also know specifically how I want the pivots adjusted. And in the case of the 52100, I wanted to patina the entire blade on my user copy.
So ya, I paid for the knives, I own them, and I'll take them apart as I see fit. I've never sold or returned a knife in my life, and would not dream of deceiving someone in that way. And I’m not at all concerned with warranty service.
Recently I went through the exercise of getting some spare pivot and standoff screws from Spyderco, which I posted about a while back, but didn’t really get a response to. It took a while to get through to C/S, but they were willing to send me some screws. I got the lecture about things being broken, potentially not being authentic, no internal parts going out, etc. Tried to explain I just wanted some spare screws, but I’m not sure that computed.
On the tinkering side, my main PM2 interest is just getting my preferred pivot/play balance. I like to have zero play and a little more pivot friction than I gather most do. Interesting thing about PM2’s is the progression of factory settings in this respect. My older ones all have a little play, but most of the newer ones are much tighter. For example the Blue Bento M390’s have more factory play than the Red DLT’s do. The Maxamet and 52100’s also have near zero lateral play, but rotate very freely. I presume the pivots themselves have been tweaked as part of the ongoing Q/C process.
Anyway, that’s probably enough rambling. Just wanted to contribute my perspective on this issue. And I’ll close by saying again, I am extremely happy and impressed with Spyderco’s products, and I fully understand there has to be some sort of policy on this. I’m probably in the minority, but would be happy to pay $300 for a PM2 that was really meant to be user-maintained in the way a Sebenza is. And I’d also like to be able to buy spare internal parts. But I understand why Spyderco doesn’t want to be in that business, and that’s OK.
Sal Glesser
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Hi Tsiloics,
Thanx much for the support, kind words and honorable attitude.
We do have a discussion on shipping internal parts going on right now. Seeking thoughts from our ELU's.
sal
Thanx much for the support, kind words and honorable attitude.
We do have a discussion on shipping internal parts going on right now. Seeking thoughts from our ELU's.
sal
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Spyderco granted your wish like a year ago. If you get one now it is old stock.
PS: I can finally see why they used red; made the knife serviceable at the service department and prevented your average hack from getting in there. Of course all the screws would be rounded out, especially since they are softer than many other torx but . . . that's all part of the fun at the service department.
You are 100% welcome, Sal. I really cannot overstate the extent to which I'm impressed with your work. We love your knives, and some of us like to work on them. If it comes to a point where Spyderco wants to actively support that, great. And if not, that's OK too.
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Hi. I’m an amateur with knives but, as engineer, I like to play with my tools when it comes to disassembly, assembly, clean, maintain, etc.After all, “knowing how things work is the basis for appreciation, and is thus a source of civilized delight”
Here you go Sal . . . a design challenge . . . you might even call it The Civilized Delight . . . and that is ? : a good sized folder like the PM 2 or Nirvana. Make it go together and come apart without tools. You've seen those wooden puzzles that have a key piece; pull that and you can slide and pull apart the rest. With a wedge or two, maybe some notches one could even make the pivot adjustable. 3D printer ?
Piece of cake right ?
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PS : I kind of know what this would entail
Here's a link to the sort of joints.
https://www.google.com/search?q=jap...DK3cfZAhVF6mMKHYBkBzwQsAQIKQ&biw=1010&bih=612
Here is the sort of thing I have cut (by hand).
joint open
Parts sliding together "dovetailing"
Parts in place and interlocked. If one were to slide a pin into a drilled hole from top to bottom the joint would be fully secured (no glue needed) yet easily disassemblable.
Not saying you should use this joint just an example.
Here's a link to the sort of joints.
https://www.google.com/search?q=jap...DK3cfZAhVF6mMKHYBkBzwQsAQIKQ&biw=1010&bih=612
Here is the sort of thing I have cut (by hand).
joint open
Parts sliding together "dovetailing"
Parts in place and interlocked. If one were to slide a pin into a drilled hole from top to bottom the joint would be fully secured (no glue needed) yet easily disassemblable.
Not saying you should use this joint just an example.
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I'll start with the caveat that I have not been able to read all 7 pages so far, so if this got mentioned, sorry.
Restock fees/ Returns. In this day and age of internet sales, I think that is a non-starter. Like it or not, at this stage its expected in a lot of places that you will just take something back. Even here in Aus where change of mind is specifically listed as a reason shops do not have to take a product back, very often many will. And a re-stock fee from the manufacture? I again, just don't see it. Many internet stores don't do it, and so it would be hard to enforce on an individual brand.
Here is a thought. Spyder-spa. You get a knife that is not quite the way you want it to be, send it to the spa. First one is free for each knife, after that its small fee. This covers those who are particularly picky. Each knife that has gotten it complementary treatment gets a laser etch somewhere on the blade, or on a liner, somewhere it can be seen, but not without really looking for it. If you took it apart and stripped some screws, then you get charged the couple bucks in parts. Maybe add to the warranty card info, or have a separate card that asks the buyer to only return the knife if it has not been tampered with, or to contact spyderco directly for additional return options.
This might also be a bad idea, but I get the idea that a lot of people seem to think that all mechanical parts should have 0.002 tolerances. They also seem to think that the action they like is the action a knife should have (I like to feel that I'm actually pushing the blade open to a degree) So maybe publish some of the tolerances? Say offset from center of the blade tip, offset of the grind, things like that? Or maybe just include some information on how the tolerances are determined and explain how they interact. Like how a very small change in how deep the bevel is ground can make a difference to the height, and how tight that actually is, or how a washer actually works? I'm thinking of the request for "a couple thou" of cladding, when that is thinner than some anodizing! I'm thinking of how when Vic was getting comments on the strength of the slide lock, they just published the designed functional limit, and said, that should be good enough for most people, if it's not, we have other knives. Maybe we all need a bit more education?
Restock fees/ Returns. In this day and age of internet sales, I think that is a non-starter. Like it or not, at this stage its expected in a lot of places that you will just take something back. Even here in Aus where change of mind is specifically listed as a reason shops do not have to take a product back, very often many will. And a re-stock fee from the manufacture? I again, just don't see it. Many internet stores don't do it, and so it would be hard to enforce on an individual brand.
Here is a thought. Spyder-spa. You get a knife that is not quite the way you want it to be, send it to the spa. First one is free for each knife, after that its small fee. This covers those who are particularly picky. Each knife that has gotten it complementary treatment gets a laser etch somewhere on the blade, or on a liner, somewhere it can be seen, but not without really looking for it. If you took it apart and stripped some screws, then you get charged the couple bucks in parts. Maybe add to the warranty card info, or have a separate card that asks the buyer to only return the knife if it has not been tampered with, or to contact spyderco directly for additional return options.
This might also be a bad idea, but I get the idea that a lot of people seem to think that all mechanical parts should have 0.002 tolerances. They also seem to think that the action they like is the action a knife should have (I like to feel that I'm actually pushing the blade open to a degree) So maybe publish some of the tolerances? Say offset from center of the blade tip, offset of the grind, things like that? Or maybe just include some information on how the tolerances are determined and explain how they interact. Like how a very small change in how deep the bevel is ground can make a difference to the height, and how tight that actually is, or how a washer actually works? I'm thinking of the request for "a couple thou" of cladding, when that is thinner than some anodizing! I'm thinking of how when Vic was getting comments on the strength of the slide lock, they just published the designed functional limit, and said, that should be good enough for most people, if it's not, we have other knives. Maybe we all need a bit more education?
NJBillK
Custom Leather and Fixed Blade modifications.
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So 2016...
OK you got me
Still . . . it's not a high end Spyderco, it's a bit artless (ammo box with a toggle compared to a Georgian Secretary desk with secret compartments).
Still they both contain stuff . . .
hahaha . . . side note if one ever dropped the Camy Homefront in the woods they would never find it again. I suppose that's nice . . . in away . . .
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I'm afraid Ken Onion beat him to the punch.
I'm sure there's more than one way to go about it though. I'd love to see something along the lines of the "field strip technology" from Spyderco.
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Sal, I was delighted to see that you had started a thread, but then was seeing that these knuckleheads are making it difficult and expensive for dealers, manufacturers and us,...the public.
I've owned several hundred of your fine knives, and have never taken one apart...simply BECAUSE it worked so well and I didn't want to screw it up.
Yes, I do take my CRKs apart on occasion, but rarely.
You do great work; NOW make us some more Slysz Bowies, darn it.
Don
I've owned several hundred of your fine knives, and have never taken one apart...simply BECAUSE it worked so well and I didn't want to screw it up.
Yes, I do take my CRKs apart on occasion, but rarely.
You do great work; NOW make us some more Slysz Bowies, darn it.
Don
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And more Tuffs, darn it.You do great work; NOW make us some more Slysz Bowies, darn it.
Don
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Ordered two of the Ti/CF Millies and had to send one back. The blade centering was so far off on one that it was unacceptable to me. The other one is off a small amount but I can live with it.
So, quandry time..do I take it apart and attempt to fix it or do I send it back to Spyderco or KW?
If I sent it to Spyderco would they even do anything? I bet it would fall within their specifications..I mean it made it past QA and out the door once already so what makes me think they would do anything different this time? Not confidence inspiring at all.
To their credit I called KW and they immediately said "send it back"..so back in the box and back to KW it went for a exchange.
It seems a knife with a $400 MSRP should have perfect or near perfect blade centering.
Impossible to know but I'd like to know how many get taken apart just for that one issue?
So, quandry time..do I take it apart and attempt to fix it or do I send it back to Spyderco or KW?
If I sent it to Spyderco would they even do anything? I bet it would fall within their specifications..I mean it made it past QA and out the door once already so what makes me think they would do anything different this time? Not confidence inspiring at all.
To their credit I called KW and they immediately said "send it back"..so back in the box and back to KW it went for a exchange.
It seems a knife with a $400 MSRP should have perfect or near perfect blade centering.
Impossible to know but I'd like to know how many get taken apart just for that one issue?
Well, technically, you don't have to take it apart to center it; all you have to do is loosen up the screws. But yes, if someone does this, and fails, and then proceeds to return the knife as new or for a refund, I think we can all agree that is wrong.
I am curious, other than stripped screw heads or threads, what are others things that someone can screw up? I pretty much took every knife I own apart. To swap/dye scales, to clean, or just to see how things work. I have a hard time comprehending what can be screwed up. Maybe folks like me are a minority, but to me a knife is not that complicated.
I 'had' to center probably a 20% of my knives, both Spyderco and others. Including my KW Military. Successfully, I will add...
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Sal Glesser
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There are many mechanically skilled. There are many less so. The less so cannot tell when it it isn't right. Returning the piece as new taints very customer down the road.
sal
sal
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I really have a hard time believing people can’t assemble a knife correctly.
I’m not calling Sal a liar, but let’s be real here.....complicated pieces of machinery they are not.
I have never taken apart a knife that didn’t go back exactly how it came apart....because there’s really only one correct way to do it. The parts only fit together correctly one way, and if it’s not correct then it’s readily apparent.
This is one of those things that should be a non issue.
I’m not calling Sal a liar, but let’s be real here.....complicated pieces of machinery they are not.
I have never taken apart a knife that didn’t go back exactly how it came apart....because there’s really only one correct way to do it. The parts only fit together correctly one way, and if it’s not correct then it’s readily apparent.
This is one of those things that should be a non issue.
NJBillK
Custom Leather and Fixed Blade modifications.
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I have to agree with you, but for one issue that remains in my memory.I really have a hard time believing people can’t assemble a knife correctly.
I’m not calling Sal a liar, but let’s be real here.....complicated pieces of machinery they are not.
I have never taken apart a knife that didn’t go back exactly how it came apart....because there’s really only one correct way to do it. The parts only fit together correctly one way, and if it’s not correct then it’s readily apparent.
This is one of those things that should be a non issue.
When I pulled apart my Manix 2 G10 for a S110V blade swap (prior to the sprint release), I had a slight issue that sounded like the G10 or Bearing cage was cracking.
It took me less than 5 minutes to realize I had installed the bearing cage upside-down. A quick strip and flip, and I was back in business.
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I am fairly mechanically savvy and I don't normally have issues with knives. This was just one subtle detail that I missed, and it had an immediate impact on function without assembling with conflict or letting me know there was an issue until I had it completely reassembled.
Someone that is less steeped in knife assembly than we knuts are, may not realize something so trivial. Issues ike this could cause someone to return the knife as faulty, when they assembled it incorrectly.
Simple things, knives and issues alike.
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