Tank Like Folders?

[Cotherion]

Doesn't matter, AUS8A is steel you get when better steels aren't available. It's ok... but not goo enough. And I do not think that the relief cut in titanium is too terribly week... we're basically talking about having to tear a 1/16th of titanium. Impossible? No... EXTREMELY unlikely yes. And I have to imagine it would take a lot more than 400 lbs at the lock to create enough force to shear that portion of the locking bar.

Good to see you don't have a prejudice to Aus 8a, I am pretty satisfied with it until now

Well, not to nit pick or anything but the mode of failure for the relief cut when the opened knife is subjected to closing (or some say negative forces) forces is by buckling and not shearing. Shearing 1/16th or Titanium is not easy but buckling it is significantly not too difficult don'cha know

Buckling of the relief is actually very good outcome instead considering a frame/liner lock may also fail due to the lockbar sliding off the angled blade cutoff. It happened to my ZT0200 and a Custom and with some diamond file (rounded in x-section shape) sorted that easy and with no bladeplay. This actually is rather uncommon.

Stop pin size is only a small amount of openign/cutting strength. Position has a great deal to do with it. The way in which is engages the blade is VERY important. And the materials of the pin itself and the materials of the blade matter a great deal also. You take a large stop pin made of cheap steel, positioned poorly, stopping a blade of realatively average steel.... and you're not promised a stronger stop than a knife that may have a perfectly positioned pin, made of better materials, stopping a more robust blade, with more intense engagement. Not saying either the Strider or Crusader pull this off... but I would take semi-production to custom's attention to detail over the mass produced assembly line junk that Cold Steel throws out.

In terms of position it is relative to the pivot of the blade. The distance of the stop pin (from the pivot) is not too different from most folders. However the actual distance i'm referring to is the vector component. Most folders are around (plus minus) and inch or so.

I am a patent holder for mechanical joint in Malaysia (for RC square piles joints) and the critical component is the steel pin which holds everything together by shear. I tested different materials for the pins from stainless cheapie steel (hey, I gotta save money you know ) to high carbon including mild cold drawn. Actually the results do not vary too much and for a 20mm diameter rod the shearing force is roughly 7 tonnes (Plus minus a half tonne) . If I remember correctly. So though CS may use cheapie SS (which from my conclusion from the Youtube test vids it is definately not weak) it's shearing capacity is not small.

Sorry for giving a mass produced assembly lined junk (in my opinion it is everything you say but not junk, at least not ALL of their products) instead of something of higher class but I assume you wanted a mega strong folder with strength as priority.

Good luck in your searches. It'll be interesting to see how this pans out as I too am always looking for a strong (stronger) folder/blade.

 

[Steel-Junky]

Good to see you don't have a prejudice to Aus 8a, I am pretty satisfied with it until now

I'm not much of a knife collector... I use everything I buy. And I've been buying knives for at least 20 years (I'm only 32). And back in the day Cold Steel was the Bee's Knees because in a small country town with no internet or good exposure to custom or semi-production stuff... Cold Steel was the king. So I have used and abused my share of AUS8A and Carbon V and San Mai III. While AUS8A is decent... it's not GREAT steel. It works, it's user friendly, doesn't hold an edge really long but it's easy to sharpen. It's good basic run of the mill steel. Nothing special at all about it. So when compared to other high end steels... I see it as very generic. Can it make a usable knife... sure. Can it make an awesome knife... I don't think so.

Well, not to nit pick or anything but the mode of failure for the relief cut when the opened knife is subjected to closing (or some say negative forces) forces is by buckling and not shearing. Shearing 1/16th or Titanium is not easy but buckling it is significantly not too difficult don'cha know

Perhaps, but in it's relaxed position when eganged it is signifigantly harder to buckle than when in it's tensioned state while not engaged. Failure pf this type is so rare that I'd dare say it's almost unheard of other than in a controlled environment designed to induce such a failure.

Buckling of the relief is actually very good outcome instead considering a frame/liner lock may also fail due to the lockbar sliding off the angled blade cutoff. It happened to my ZT0200 and a Custom and with some diamond file (rounded in x-section shape) sorted that easy and with no bladeplay. This actually is rather uncommon.

This kind of failure can happen under great amounts of stress placed on the handle in a twisting motion and is rare in most substaintial folder designs. I've seen Emersons do it with their thin little liner locks, I've heard of knives like the bechmade skirmish doing it but never seen it for myself, but I've never heard of folders as robust as a Strider or Crusader Forge failing in the manner other than in a controlled environment designed to induce such a failure... a sort of... "let's see what it takes to make this thing fail" kind of thing. I don't trust mass produced frame locks really, and I'm terrified of mass produced liner locks. I've seen them fail and know that it's not hard to get them to. But you do pay for what you get and something of the caliber of a Strider... baring a defective model... has much attention to detail in it's fit, finish, and construction and they know these factors exist and do everything possible to engineer them out or limit their occurance through proper allignment and fit. To say there are weaknesses in every lock design is fact... however these weaknesses can be lessened and controled in a production manner that lends attention to detail over shooting a new unit out every 3.7 seconds.




In terms of position it is relative to the pivot of the blade. The distance of the stop pin (from the pivot) is not too different from most folders. However the actual distance i'm referring to is the vector component. Most folders are around (plus minus) and inch or so.

Actually the results do not vary too much and for a 20mm diameter rod the shearing force is roughly 7 tonnes (Plus minus a half tonne) . If I remember correctly. So though CS may use cheapie SS (which from my conclusion from the Youtube test vids it is definately not weak) it's shearing capacity is not small.

So would you say that perhaps a 20mm rod is overkill and that amount of resistance would never ever be needed in folder? perhaps others have found that it's just useless and not needed. I mean 7 tons... c'mon. That's a stupid number.

Sorry for giving a mass produced assembly lined junk (in my opinion it is everything you say but not junk, at least not ALL of their products) instead of something of higher class but I assume you wanted a mega strong folder with strength as priority.

I do... and I'll find it in companies such as Strider or Crusader Forge... not Cold Steel. I've owned their folders... while decent. i wasn't impressed.

 

[mnyshrpknvs]

I just took a look at the Crusader Forge Website. I would classify those as BattleShips! Those are bad@$$ indeed. Probably my next folder.

 

[Luis Gutierrez]

Based on his portfolio (I hadn't been aware of him until this post) this guy looks like he might be the best option!

If you don´t mind,I would like to clarify something that I think is an misunderstanding.Previously,and surely the origin of this misunderstanding: my English is precarious,so I try to say what I have to say in the fewer words that´s possible. Now,I understand that this Forum has like objective to share our common interest ( or passion ),and is in this spirit that I´ve participated. With regard to the principal post -the Tank-Folder Knife- I´ve give two suggestions, the Buck-Strider Folder, and the Willumsen´s tank-folders;the latter through the data where I knew them. Therefore was only an opinion (stricteness,the article´s autor opinion). In no ways "the best opinion ". In relation to my question to Josh K.,I thought I could get a surprising information about the Buck-Strider folder,since is one of my several folders,and until today I believe its liners are "solid" Titanium,like says its maker,independent of its thickness.Or are steel with Titanium as a cover ?.Or maybe Josh K. tried to tell....what? But his answer says nothing.( Surely his is not refering to the Titanium´s physical state). So,I regret about this wrongly interpretation of my scarce participation,when my only wish was to share and learn. Finally,my portfolio is empty,therefore how can anyone take it to give an opinion about the person ? I´m only a knife student-collector-fanatic; I´m not an expert,nor I poses as an expert. And now my very personal opinion about the Tank-Folder searching : I´m glad to learning a lot from the several technicals comments,but I think- like many others -that Steel-Junky will must to make his dream´s folder by himself,exploiting his extense knowledge about this matter.

 

[Cotherion]

So would you say that perhaps a 20mm rod is overkill and that amount of resistance would never ever be needed in folder? perhaps others have found that it's just useless and not needed. I mean 7 tons... c'mon. That's a stupid number.

I wasn't reffering to 7 tonnes in folders actually but in RC pile joints. I however did testings and had such a result. There is no way I'd suggest a 20mm rod on a folder or that one nedded 7 tonnes. Of course that is a stupid number. I hope you would re-read my earlier posting and realise I just gave figures for use in the construction industry to put across the point of pin shear strength among different materials.

Anyways howsabout an Airkat Tripwire Double Titanium by Carrilo! I was researching (because of this thread) last night and that bad boy is serious tough looking. Have a look at the Carrilo website and look for the Double Ti model. Especially note the screw sizes and the thickness of the ti scales and also the blade grind! It's a real looker I tell you.

http://www.airkatknives.com/gallery/view/albums/One_of_a_kinds/Double-ti-Tripwire.jpg

Let me know what you think, other than the custom at 0.25 thick scales you mentioned earlier this is the most tank-like and sexy as well

 

[Polar Bear]

:jerkit: :jerkit: :jerkit: :jerkit:

I'd guess that the back lock (triad lock or whatever) would shear part of the tang off the blade before a 2mm section of titanium "buckled". My two cents though.

:jerkit: :jerkit: :jerkit: :jerkit:

hardly worth 2c

 

[Cotherion]

It can be true that a 2mm section of titanium would outlast a lockback. If the relief cut is very very wide and with a thick scale on the lockbar (framelock/linerlock) side supporting one face of the relief cut from buckling.

I had cheapo lockbacks which had massive bladeplay after a few years. However to fully analyse the situation there is many factors attributing to a strong or weak design. My stand is reputable brands make reliable products so I'll stick with reputable brands like spyderco or kershaw.

By the way Polar Bear, no need for the jerkits. Josh K stated his opinion and it's fun when different opinions are gathered for any discussion. I haven't participated in a thread in a long time cause of lack of interaction. Or maybe cause I'm long-winded and boring

Welcome to Bladeforums (I'm the 1st right?) and hope you enjoy ur experience. However take comments/opinions with a benefit of doubt and you'll find the interaction as a result to be fun

 

[Bors]

hardly worth 2c

Crusader Forge....Mall Ninja knives on steroids....LOL

 

[cutter17]

:jerkit: :jerkit: :jerkit: :jerkit:

:jerkit: :jerkit: :jerkit: :jerkit:

hardly worth 2c

Yep.............ignorance for sure, and not on Josh K's part either.

 

[Lycosa]

Almost forgot---Mission MPF Titanium Folders.

 

[Polar Bear]

By the way Polar Bear, no need for the jerkits. Josh K stated his opinion and it's fun when different opinions are gathered for any discussion. I haven't participated in a thread in a long time cause of lack of interaction. Or maybe cause I'm long-winded and boring

Welcome to Bladeforums (I'm the 1st right?) and hope you enjoy ur experience. However take comments/opinions with a benefit of doubt and you'll find the interaction as a result to be fun

Sorry Coth....i did not mean come off totaly uncivil...i am just new to this forum stuff and felt the need to be as expressive as possible, it is a shame to see so many sheeple on here believe what they believe even with the amazing youtube video proof Bors linked to this thread....i would wager my left *** a strider or similar frame lock could not hold up to those test like those "back lock (triad lock or whatever)" do. I was however, enlightened by your insight on what a true "Tank Like Folder" should be.

Thank you for the warm welcome Coth,

PB

 

[Josh K]

Sorry Coth....i did not mean come off totaly uncivil...i am just new to this forum stuff and felt the need to be as expressive as possible, it is a shame to see so many sheeple on here believe what they believe even with the amazing youtube video proof Bors linked to this thread....i would wager my left *** a strider or similar frame lock could not hold up to those test like those "back lock (triad lock or whatever)" do. I was however, enlightened by your insight on what a true "Tank Like Folder" should be.

Thank you for the warm welcome Coth,

PB

Looking at the massive amount of blade play that developed after the weight hang.... man. I wouldn't trust a knife like that.

Sure my Military's Liner Lock might have collapsed under that much weight, but you've got to realize that ever lock has a breaking point. Everything has a weakness.

My guess would be that either the tang of the knife, or the lock bar, deformed under that much weight, causing the blade play.

I will admit that they idea of a shear failure is unlikely. A common 16d nail will shear at about 900lbs. A bit less if it's shock loaded.

I would love to see a Strider or a nice Spyderco Manix/Chinook run that gauntlet. I really don't believe that a 2mm, curved, piece of Ti has a low "buckling" strength.

Oh yeah, 8 jerk-it's ? Grow up. :thumbdn:

Welcome to BF!

 

[Cotherion]

Sorry Coth....i did not mean come off totaly uncivil...i am just new to this forum stuff and felt the need to be as expressive as possible, it is a shame to see so many sheeple on here believe what they believe even with the amazing youtube video proof Bors linked to this thread....i would wager my left *** a strider or similar frame lock could not hold up to those test like those "back lock (triad lock or whatever)" do. I was however, enlightened by your insight on what a true "Tank Like Folder" should be.

Thank you for the warm welcome Coth,

PB

No problem PB, I was guilty of far far worse when I first started! I believe a folder should not only be structurally strong, perform decently and last (not least cause I'm bit brain drained to think of more complete answer) also must give confidence to the owner.

What I mean by the last point is that even if a frost cutlery (use to sell 7.99 cheapo linerlock folders which you lose fingers) produceda supremo folder with an incredible blade steel and handle material with the best design in the market for an affordable cost with state of the art quality control..........

..... I still won't buy it

I like the sense of confidence I get when I buy Kershaw or Spyderco products and yes I confess, Cold Steel products too. Steel-Junky's discomfort of Cold Steel knife is not wrong, I too feel they could be much much better if they put their mind (not their wallets) to it. Cold Steel may have lost what made their company truly admirable/strong in their commercial pursuit

Have fun in this forum, I never regretted my joining so far.

 

[cbxer55]

Almost forgot---Mission MPF Titanium Folders.

Yeah they are tough. But that beta-titanium blade does not hold an edge worth a shit! I long ago quit carrying mine due to that fact alone. Its a $375 dollar display-case-queen.

 

[Wildone39]

Cold steel Bushman or Buck 110

 

[wojtas_13]

I had Manix/Chinook/BM Skirmish/ZT/Strider folders. But these were not so tough. The toughest folders I found are Airkat, Extrema ratio and Trident/Crusader Forge. Airkat are most stylish, ER's are most affordable but CF are most user friendly. Unlike Airkat, CF are easy to carry (if such a big knife may be easy to carry), Cut bettre than most ER models (higher and hollow grinds). Striders would be almost equal in toughness buy they have delicate tips.

Here some photos of my tanks:

 

[elkins45]

What is the first knife in the picture with the flashlight (the one with the blade hole)?

 

[Cotherion]

Dang, Though I have my little gripes regarding frame/liner locks but I like looking at the pics by wojtaz 13. In your last pic, with the view of the lockup, can you tell me what is the folder 2nd from the left? The 1st is Airkat and I'm unsure of the 2nd.

Airkats are nice for their super thick lockbar. Even if it travels all the way the lockbar is thicker than the blade and it'll still have superb lockup

For the 2nd I like the slightly rounded grind for the lock contact on the blade. It ensures the longevity of the framelock and lockbar travel takes a very long time in comparison with straight grinds like folder 3rd and 4th from the right.

 

[wojtas_13]

What is the first knife in the picture with the flashlight (the one with the blade hole)?

Crusader Forge Flipper folder. I had about 10 CF folders and each one was somehow different. This one had .25 thick blade.

Dang, Though I have my little gripes regarding frame/liner locks but I like looking at the pics by wojtaz 13. In your last pic, with the view of the lockup, can you tell me what is the folder 2nd from the left? The 1st is Airkat and I'm unsure of the 2nd.

Airkats are nice for their super thick lockbar. Even if it travels all the way the lockbar is thicker than the blade and it'll still have superb lockup

For the 2nd I like the slightly rounded grind for the lock contact on the blade. It ensures the longevity of the framelock and lockbar travel takes a very long time in comparison with straight grinds like folder 3rd and 4th from the right.

Second from left is Striders AR. What You can't see in this pictures is that airkat have very thin "milled?" end of locking bar. It goes very light, but don't know how it could handle really heavy load.
CF folders have rounded grind for lockbar but with larger radius than Strider (at least it looks like rounded).

 

[Cotherion]

Second from left is Striders AR. What You can't see in this pictures is that airkat have very thin "milled?" end of locking bar. It goes very light, but don't know how it could handle really heavy load.
CF folders have rounded grind for lockbar but with larger radius than Strider (at least it looks like rounded).

I expected that it'll be very light cause I saw pics of how thin it was. But I like the fact that travel of the lockbar is not an issue with the airkat. Yes I agree with you regarding the thin milled lockbar resisting heavy closing loads, Carillo perhaps should have milled it less thin?