Teens cant have Knives?

kbog said:
I do not like blanket policies in all cases, but considering some of the awful things that can take place in schools (or anywhere), I understand this one. Parents want to feel like they are sending their kids to a safe environment. Keeping blades away from students makes it safer - even if it is only because of the minority who would threaten the environment.
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Does this policy itself necessarily keep blades out of the school? During my high school days, blades weren't allowed, however more than once I forgot one was in my pocket and ended up finding it after I got there. No big deal though... I left in my pocket and no one was the wiser. I broke the rule by accident and had no intention of causing anyone any harm, so I didn't... but the rule didn't stop me from carrying. It wouldn't stop a kid planning something bad either. Rules don't prevent crime, enforcement of them does. And this is one tough rule to enforce effectively. Please consider that when you're defending blanket "zero-tolerance" policies that are difficult to enforce, like this one.
 
It's the sign of the times. Society is sick as far as I'm concerned. Things were way different back when I was in school. I remember my shop teacher teaching us how to properly sharpen knives. Most of us kids carried a folding knife of some sort, but there were some kids who did not. The teacher asked us the day before to bring in some kind of knife, kitchen, hunting etc. One kid forgot to bring in a knife. The teacher was angry and started yelling at him, and after school he was made to clean up the shop. Have things ever changed since then.
 
I carry knives, and lots of them :D I'm 18 and I live in Massachusetts, which isn't as bad about knife laws as some people think. You can have anything here as long as it's not double-edged, doesn't have illegal actions (balisongs :( , automatics, "gravity knives", etc.), and it isn't concealed (according the letter of the law- some people who haven't read the law or can't read it think there is a 2.5" blade limit on ALL knives). I walk around everywhere except school and knife-sensitive buildings with a 4 3/4" fixed blade strapped to my hip, a Victorinox Climber, and my SwissMemory. I've never had any problem at all, and I've worn it in front of a few LEO's who have come into my store.

The reason people don't like teens having knives is because teenagers can be stupid. Now anybody of any age can be stupid, but we have a lot more potential for doing stupid things :o If you don't brandish it, refer to it as a weapon, don't abuse it, and use it properly for cutting, you really shouldn't have a problem. If you're in school, you're out of luck. I agree that I would like to be able to carry a SAK at school because there have been many times when I've wanted one while working on school projects or needing to quickly cut something without having to ask for a pair of scissors. It's just more knee-jerk legislation :thumbdn:

Oh, and by the way- there are many knives in my school that the administration doesn't know or care about. They hang from people's carabiners on their belt loops. Usually small Leatherman's, others have those cheapo mini Delicas from gas stations.
 
sgbeskin said:
Now,
Like I say, we are in a rural setting. So, I have seen a few boys that I am pretty sure had knives on them. I think my reaction would depend on the individual student. If I had a known trouble maker pull a knife out in the same scenario that you described I would have immediately turned him in, BUT if it was a good student, I would have pulled him aside and told him or her that it might be in their best interest to put the knife up and don't bring it back to class. I have never been in the situation you described so I don't really know what I would do. But I am pretty sure I would follow procedure, remember the US is a lawsuit happy society and I am the ONLY one in that classroom that has a family to support and put bread on the table. Kids talk and I am sure they would let it be known all over school that "Mr. S let so&so use a pocket kniffe in his class" then I would receive a visit from the principal, then the parents would call, then the school board.............. I shudder to think about it!!;)
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My reaction to this post may sound negative or personal, but it is not meant to. I'm not certain how to speak about this without being direct and so please take my comments as constructive.

The first half of your post indicated that you would handle different students differently depending on your perception of if they are good or bad. I would strongly recommend against this. You introduce a double standard by treating the students differently. Who are you to determine good or bad (I mean that literally, not sarcastically)?

If a school rule exists, you must uphold it fairly. That means that ALL students fall under the rule and therefore, like it or not, they all get treated the same based on it. It may be tough to do, it may tax a relationship with a student you have or it may ruin another relationship, but it is the only way to be fair to ALL students, like it or not. The second half of you post alludes to what may happen if you deviate from consistency so you may already understand my points.

There is not better profession in my mind than teaching, which is why I am a teacher as well. I have a tremendous respect for educators, these days especially. Thanks for choosing education and again, no ill intent with my post. I just want to throw my opinion out there for consideration...:thumbup:
 
Kbog-

I see your points about not wanting to create a double standard and not wanting to jeapardize a career, but I'm sure you can understand how hard it would be for a teacher to bring so much hell fire and brimstone onto a good kid if he was using a knife for what it is meant. They've put teachers in a tough spot, and they wonder why the few teachers who are getting into the profession are leaving long before retirment.
 
down here in the states most of the time if you even have a knife on school grounds or grounds being used by a school you can get in legal trouble, depending on the knife, state, use, etc.

i wish i was in a place where a knife/multi tool at school was normal and fine because peopel werent idiotic enough to try and stab someone that they have an "issue" with.

but on a side note now my friend has pulled out knives at school to fix and do many things and his teachers just kind of laughed.. i think he even pulled out a butterfly knife one time.

between laws, policies, pratices, and ideas there is sooooo much BS and differances that its getting stupid
-matt
 
I always carried a foulder to school. During hunting season a shotgun was often in the trunk,nobody cared.

In shop class we would make small billyclubs in foundary. (sp)

class of '77 btw
 
Roadrunner said:
Does this policy itself necessarily keep blades out of the school? During my high school days, blades weren't allowed, however more than once I forgot one was in my pocket and ended up finding it after I got there. No big deal though... I left in my pocket and no one was the wiser. I broke the rule by accident and had no intention of causing anyone any harm, so I didn't... but the rule didn't stop me from carrying. It wouldn't stop a kid planning something bad either. Rules don't prevent crime, enforcement of them does. And this is one tough rule to enforce effectively. Please consider that when you're defending blanket "zero-tolerance" policies that are difficult to enforce, like this one.
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Good question. In most cases, I think the answer is yes. I am certain however, that it does not keep all knives and tools out. We have very few known incidents with anything like this in our school, but I'm sure we have quite a few blades or tools in pockets. Then again, this will vary greatly depending on the culture of the district and its residents.

Please consider that the rule is not intended to stop crime. It is intended to make a school environment, or the perception of the environment, safer. To enforce it, admin simply must treat incidents fairly and consistenly across the student body.

Prevention of planned crime in a school has little to do with enforcement of rules and all to do with maintaining a culture or atmosphere where students take enough pride in their school that they feel comfortable and responsible for alerting an athority of impending activity. The students know far more than we do about any on campus criminal activity - especially planned.
 
NeedleRemorse said:
Kbog-

I see your points about not wanting to create a double standard and not wanting to jeapardize a career, but I'm sure you can understand how hard it would be for a teacher to bring so much hell fire and brimstone onto a good kid if he was using a knife for what it is meant. They've put teachers in a tough spot, and they wonder why the few teachers who are getting into the profession are leaving long before retirment.
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I do understand and that is why we provide knives to students who need them for what they are meant. Knives are not "outlawed" in a school. I maintain a science department which possesses numerous knives for student use. We have students use knives in a variety of other disciplines as well. We provide these tools, and, more importantly, the instruction and warnings that go with the tools, so that students need not bring in their own.

I do not bring "fire and brimstone" to students. I do bring very clear and consistent expectations and I make clear consequences when those expectations are not met. A student who chooses to pull out his/her own knife to cut open a pig would know in advance that this is a poor decision in my classroom and will also know that the decision will be met with consequences. The student with the dull scalpel in my class would know to bring me the blade for replacement. I would put a fresh blade on it and we would move along. A leatherman is NOT an appropriate tool to use for this activity and so I would argue that the mere fact that it was brought out in class may have more implications than just because the "scalpel was dull". Then again, maybe not, but the original poster should not have needed the leatherman to cut the pig.

This is a good discussion and I am enjoying the debate.
 
I remember a stabbing with an ice pick, a girl getting expelled for having a razor under her tongue, a guy in my gym class getting caught with a .25 in his locker (another was arrested for selling cocaine), and a girl with a kitchen knife trying to stab a guy she claimed raped her during the last week of school. I carried a sak every day and never got in trouble for it. Policies will never stop the criminal actions, just restrict those who bother to follow the rules.
 
I've been carrying a knife of one type or another for over 50 years. When I was a kid even in Cub Scouts we learned about knife usage and safety. "Be prepared" is the Scouts motto and that's what I intend to be. Carrying a knife is part of that. The heck with the public. Just make sure you're legal. However, I admit I never carried one to school (usually).

Regard
 
See, my father is a police officer, I know me carring a knife is legal, just the school thing caught me off guard, ive grown up with knives, dads shop, gradpas farm, gradmas kitchen, they were never a weapon, just a handy tool
 
When I was in high school, a great many boys carried pocketknives. Mainly slipjoints like trappers or stockman. Some had buck 110s in a belt sheath. You could also have cigarettes and smoke on campus, just not inside the building. Kids who had pickup trucks were deemed less than real men if they had no gunrack with at least one old beater gun on it in the rear window.

Chewing gum, however, was contraband of the worst kind. Weird, huh?

I think that the way society works these days, Kids absorb the idea that there is no such thing as personal responsibility. Look and listen - every time something bad happens, everyone tries to blame it on someone else - no one stands up and takes responsibility for anything. Therefore kids do not think about the consequences of their actions, because they get the idea from our society that there ought not to be any consequences. I see this mindset creeping out in my own kids from time to time, and I squash it when it does.

My dad told me that when a boy gets old enough to have a key to something, he ought never to leave the house without his keys, his wallet and his pocketknife. My EDC today includes all three. I told my son the same thing. He is not allowed to carry any kind of knife to school, but he goes to private school, so they are not anal about it. He probably could. But in public schools here there are many kids who either don't have fathers, or they never get the idea of personal responsibility from their fathers, and it's good that those kids aren't walking around with knives or guns. Male children with no male role models, or worse - bad male role models do not develop correctly IMO.
 
Jos said:
Some things confuse me.:confused: (i'm not from the USA)
1. A leatherman is considered a weapon?
2. You can carry one on the street but not to school?
3. You can get arrested for carrying a leatherman to school?

I'm glad I don't have to go to school anymore!:D
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1. can be, it has a blade and other instruments that can be utilized as a weapon.
2. a juvenile in los angeles can be arrested for possession of one if carried in public.
3. absolutely

i dont write the laws or make the rules. i cant attest to the rationale behind all of them or what lawmakers were thinking when they were written. i can only speculate as to why.

a leatherman can also be used for other illicit activities, burglaries and such.
 
Tweek said:
And why should simply having a knife be an offense?

i dont write the laws.
In a free country the mere possesion of item X should never be considered an offense. It's what you do with it that makes the difference.

many things are illegal to merely possess, whether i agree or not. eg, dope, shaved car keys, counterfeit money, altered firearm (serial # removed, etc), on and on.

School officials shouldn't need to say "Well he had a knife..." if they can already say "well he was threatening another student" or "he was disrupting the learning environment"

if i can arrest a gangster for possession of a knife on school grounds i will, i wont wait for him to commit a crime against another person. threats are often followed by violence. your reasoning here is flawed.

i am not concerned with 'disrupting the learning environment'. that is for the teachers and administration.
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Roadrunner said:
Does this policy itself necessarily keep blades out of the school? During my high school days, blades weren't allowed, however more than once I forgot one was in my pocket and ended up finding it after I got there. No big deal though... I left in my pocket and no one was the wiser. I broke the rule by accident and had no intention of causing anyone any harm, so I didn't... but the rule didn't stop me from carrying. It wouldn't stop a kid planning something bad either. Rules don't prevent crime, enforcement of them does. And this is one tough rule to enforce effectively. Please consider that when you're defending blanket "zero-tolerance" policies that are difficult to enforce, like this one.
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well, in la we dont have metal detectors or anything. the rule is mostly reactionary as a result of a search of a student or his property/locker.
in other words, the zero tolerance gives administrators/police some leverage when dealing with students with weapons.

your behavior in school, by accident, is a little different. like you said, you werent looking to do anything bad.

rules probably stop many people from carrying weapons or doing generally bad things, but that is impossible to quantify.
 
NeedleRemorse said:
The reason people don't like teens having knives is because teenagers can be stupid. Now anybody of any age can be stupid, but we have a lot more potential for doing stupid things :o If you don't brandish it, refer to it as a weapon, don't abuse it, and use it properly for cutting, you really shouldn't have a problem. If you're in school, you're out of luck. I agree that I would like to be able to carry a SAK at school because there have been many times when I've wanted one while working on school projects or needing to quickly cut something without having to ask for a pair of scissors. It's just more knee-jerk legislation :thumbdn:
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Indeed. Since I've been carrying knives, I've never gotten a negative comment about it. The only time I've showed it off is when I'm just with a friend and I'm letting him see my newest knife. Otherwise it's only brought out to cut something, then I simply drop it back in my pocket.

The rules at school do get a little out of hand though. Case in point, I was once disciplined for having an exacto knife on me. I was taking it from the Art room to study hall or vice versa, something like that. It was being used on an art project I was working on. Someone saw me using it in study hall on the piece I was working on, told the teacher and I was sent to the office. They initially wanted to expel me for 80 days, but me and my teacher talked them down to two weeks because of my good behaviour that year and everyone who knew me saying I wasn't the type that would be planning anything violent with it to begin with.

The whole thing just reeked of idiocy to me. The blade on the knife was under half a centimeter from what I recall and was given to me by my art teacher to use on the project. I guess in this particular case I should of tried to work on it in the art room during my study hall, but it still seems like a loophole I shouldn't have to jump through to use an exacto knife. And 80 days expulsion for it?

Times have changed even since I started school. In 3rd grade I brought a small lockback to school by accident and told the teacher, she just offered to keep it for me until the day was over, when she'd give it back. We had a no knives policy there too. I think the enforcement at that school was much more rational and just as effective.
 
I carried all through highschool, nice little leatherman, got some dirty looks but that was it, this was before columbine though.
 
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