Testing for J.S. or M.S.? Any questions?

Cool thread Michael, good on 'ya for doing it! :cool: :)


You are spot on about a guy handing you a knife, and what he usually wants.

The first year I went to BLADE (2001, I think) I asked Jerry Fisk to critique a couple of my knives, and he said, "Oh, you should talk to Greg Neely. He's better at that type of thing. Shoot his work is so clean, if my work was that clean, I'd be on TV everyday!" ;)

It took me several requests to convince Greg I didn't just want a pat on the back, and at that point he invited me to come behind the table and take a close look at my knives.

What he did then, was BRILLIANT.

He looked them over very carefully, tip to butt, top to bottom, side to side... then handed them back to me and asked, "So what do you think is wrong with them???"

If I had said, "Not a DAMN THING! :D" then it would have been--- okay great, carry-on, show's over.... ;)

But I told him all the things I knew could/should be better, but that I just didn't know how to DO BETTER at that point. Greg smiled and said, "Boy, you made that easy on me, because you pointed out everything that I saw. Now make another one and don't do those things." ;) :D
 
Yeah, great update on that one, Nick. Spot on. Here is one thing I kinda glossed over earlier and Nick just mentioned it. It's that we already know what is wrong with our knives.

I want to kinda retract on that a bit because I'm remembering a time when I didn't really know what my errors were. The thing is that unless you are really on a path to self-improvement, you won't see what is wrong. I mean, it really took me going through the Journeyman smith knifemaking process to be able to actually SEE my mistakes. I'm at a level now where I can spend five seconds with a knife and find most of the flaws. It took me really challenging myself to be able to see that deeply into my work to be able to see my mistakes. I really do think there is a process of training the eyes and brain that comes.

Being honest with yourself here is probably the most important and lots of times we don't want to believe we made a mistake and it becomes hidden to our eyes. Kind of like when an author needs to have an editor. Unless we are looking carefully and without emotional attachment, flaws just get ignored sometimes. But the bottom line is, "...make another one and don't do those things."
 
Unless we are looking carefully and without emotional attachment
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That's the kicker right there, being able to look completely objectively. I try but it's difficult sometimes to know if I am achieving that.
BTW I should be bringing a big knife to the show... I plan on stopping by when you've got a minute to get an evaluation if that's OK.
 
Michael, are there flaws that are more "acceptable" than others? More specifically for me, grind, blade finish and fit are the 3 things I need to improve on. But I have to be realistic that I do have a limited amount of time to work on knives and may never get all 3 to a level I am 100% happy with. So, which one is more important? I think that small flaws will show up more on blade finish and fit than overall grind but maybe I am just telling myself that so I can slack off on grinds. :o
 
Yeah, good observations. You are creating art and it is hard to remove yourself from it when you look. However, there are some pretty easy guidlines that you can check-off in your head to remove some of that. And, bringing up Patrice's question, this is where you can also decide what is acceptable. Obviously, under a powerful microscope, you are going to see errant scratches. You know there is some imperfect aspects of your knife and you now have to choose what that level is. Even for a mastersmith tester, you still can't actually make everything perfect - you just have to hope it is "perfect" enough. My answer to both is your customer.

So, take for instance, if your guard is off by two or three degrees from perpendicular, here is are a few questions to ask yourself: Does it function? Sure, your guard could be crooked as crap and still function, but will your customer want it that way? Or, could you even give it away as a gift, for that matter? Will it pass in your J.S. test? Probably not, especially if all of your knives have crooked guards. So, as you can see context is everything when asking about any feature of the knife.

So, some of the guidelines I mentioned above can be a pretty lengthy list, but based upon the context of who you are making this knife for you can kinda just check them off: a) no errant scratches on the blade - check b) guard is square - check c) handle is inline with the blade - check. Etc... You get the idea.

Where things become an issue is in design. And it is quite subjective. One example is on Ed Fowler's knives. He feels the heel of the ABS style Bowie knife, the rounded part of the edge that projects outward over the ricasso is a flaw and thus does not draw-out/upset the steel on the edge of his knives. It is a personal choice and he doesn't want material that his customers are cutting to get caught up/under that part and trapped on the ricasso. That is his style choice and he is taking into consideration the context of his customer. What is your style choice? Have you really thought it through? Every knife has that contextual issue to consider. What is this knife going to be used for? How many little "flaws" can I let go on this knife? Who is it for? These are real questions you need to address in every stage of your knifemaking and no-one can really tell you that. Your customers will give you a clue though...
So there.
 
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Crap, Salem - I just looked at your website. You don't need my help.
I'll be asking you questions...

Jeez, you too Patrice.
I quit
 
That's good stuff. The issue of "how perfect" is the big one to me. Obviously there is no absolute perfect, although it would appear some folks get damn close. The closer to perfect you get, the more time it takes doing painstaking little fiddly tiptoeing work to get it that way, which you really aren't going to ever get fully paid for... when to stop is the question. That is why I'm looking forward to the show, lots of real-life context to absorb.
 
I mentioned this in a thread almost a year ago. I worked for my uncle in his cabinet shop when I was younger. He taught me a lot about woodworking and finishing. He always told me "don't chase perfection." He didn't mean "put out crap" but do the work to the standard your customer is paying for. He is one of those master craftsmen that makes $50,000.00 boardroom tables. He also made tables for fast food restaurants. You cannot make a fast food table to the same standard as a high end boardroom table and stay in business.
 
In the context of the JS test one minor flaw may not fail you. Now a minor flaw is subjective, that is why there are at least 6 judges. If you have an imperfection in the finish of one knife it will probably not fail you. If all your knives show an inconsistency in the finish it probably will. If you have a knife that has 2 or 3 obvious flaws they compound. These will probably fail you. Like has been mentioned perfection is impossible. But you can sure make it look good.

Now for the MS level you are at a whole new level. I speaking with MS judges most any obvious flaw can fail you. But there again this is subjective. There is no checklist. Just the combined experience of the judges. Design at the MS level is critical. Form must follow function. If something does not look like it will cut it will not pass. If something looks off on an MS presentation it will not pass. I personally would not use any synthetic handle material at all at the MS level. I don't think it is written in the rules but I have heard they will look even harder if you do.

The bottom lone for me is do the BEST I can. If it does not look right do it over. Chasing perfection is not what I want to do. But someone else also said, "Never be satisfied with good enough." That was Bill Moran. Not sure if it is an original quote or if he borrowed it, but I do remember it.
 
Thanks Michael and others, very interesting. I think WHO the knife is for and how they see the flaws is the key like you said. Never actually thought of it that way before, always from MY point of view, hence never being satisfied. Back to work...
 
Patrice, You nailed it. I have been working on a quillion dagger and i am very unhappy with the fit and finish. I want an MS dagger, but my buddy wants a tool to use when skinning a deer in case a bear comes along. The dagger is more than an adequate tool for the job if needed, but I am not happy. :grumpy:

i'll post a pic tomorrow.
 
Patrice. I just wanted to be clear that I'm not saying that the final recipient gets the final say in style and fit-n-finish, but it is just something to consider. It is good to think about the people that will be judging and using your knives, but you are the artist and that is a huge part of the equation as well.

Willie... Buy your friend a .44 magnum. Friends don't let friends fight bears with daggers!!!.
 
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Michael Rader said:
Buy your friend a .44 magnum. Friends don't let friends fight bears with daggers!!!.
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HaHaHa!!! That's sig line quality material right there! LMFAO :D


I remembered something that Greg Neely said at a Js/Ms testing information conference at one of the ABS Expo shows that I think might help you guys.

He said judging Ms test knives is easy, because they're either right, or they're not.

He said judging Js test knives is much harder, because they don't expect them to be perfect. They want them to be high quality, well made knives, and they should show great potential, but they do not expect Ms quality knives in the Js test room.

But be careful with that... some guys see that as an excuse to turn in sloppy work.
 
Michael, I think it was more of an excuse to have a dagger. He has a lot of guns, but doesn't wear them while processing an animal. I never asked why, maybe a safety issue? Hmmm, you got me thinkin'.
 
Michael,
Thank you for this great offering of advice. Just another example of the type of folks who make up the knifemaking community. I sincerely hope the folks who read this thread understand what a great opportunity this is.
 
Ok, I know basically what I need to improve and, on paper at least, how to go about doing it. But when it comes time to actually do it, it is not that easy. I'll still ask in case you have any tips that could help, mostly with the 3rd one since the first two are my fault as you'll see.

1) Blade grind, mostly precision of the grind from one side to the other, including plunge. I use Dykem liberally and scribe lines. But I realize that there is no substitute for experience. The thing is, I grind sometimes one knife per 1-2 months. By the time I grind my next knife, I have lost a lot of the muscle memory acquired with he last one. Of course I am still getting better with each knife but it is taking much longer than if I was grinding a dozen blade a day.

2) Blade finish. This has to do with grit progression. I've had a lot of advices through the years but I am still struggling. Of course the fact that I just can't bring myself to spend a gazillion hours hand sanding doesn't help. I did start using the disk grinder per Nick's advice and for flat grinds it looks like this will help me improve finish (and grind) a lot. But I love hollow grinds so much. :(

3) Guard fit. I still can't get a perfect fit. I always end up with a small gap (very small but still there) at the front and back of the ricasso. Do you get a perfectly square shoulder or does the press fit “imprint” in the guard face takes care of the minor “bowing” (talking a few thousands)? If that makes any sense.

Thanks.
 
My blade finishing pisses me off. I'm trying to improve at each belt and really nit pik between stepping up. I chase this a lot. Last year it was chasing my grinds till they lines up. Before that it was plunges. Still. That damn blade finishing is under my skin right now.
 
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