Testing for J.S. or M.S.? Any questions?

OK, I will..You had the opportunity to look at these two at the show. What were the your thoughts if you can remember.

I know they are not perfect or close to it. Please be honest....

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IMO, they look quite wonderful. Chuck, your work is excellent.
 
A C Richards said:
I know they are not perfect or close to it. Please be honest....
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Chuck, you are right of course. These are completely unacceptable. Please carefully package both and send them to me for proper disposal. Then go practice making more until you get the hang of it all.;)

Both are beauties! Love the high contrast on the feather.
 
Thank you fiddleback, there in is a good example. Not to cut down my own work, but most if US know where the problems are on our own work. For these two, the primary focus was speed. I did the best job I could in the short time I had. There were minor flaws that in no way affect function.

The following is in the context of MS submission and my own point of view.

The Damascus bowie. The pattern is not consistent ie it is kind of smashed at the belly. I personally would never submit a knife with a handle like this due to the impossibility of getting the symmetry the judges are looking for, no reason to given them something to fail you on. The plunges, though I think they were pretty darned close I did not take the time to verify they were as close to exact as possible. And finally another reason not to use this type handle material, I am not positive it would have passed the old thumbnail test for overall straightness.

The big bowie. Now I have to admit, this one is close. Some problems I saw on very close scrutiny were,

The clip bevels are not perfectly even. The left side was a bit heavier. This one should have passed the thumbnail test but I did not actually check it. There was a possibility on this one also of the plunges being slightly off. They looked really close but taken the time and with the micrometer eyes of the judges may have been off enough to get a strike.

Now let me say, there is nothing "WRONG" with either of these knives. I just did not look at them with and eye for the MS test. Yes it makes a difference. The plunges off by .010 would be ok on most knives but not on an MS submission. Would any one of these flaws have failed me? Probably not, however the combination of them might have. I hope this illustrates at least my pov of what we need to think about when getting ready for testing.
 
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Chuck, "thumbnail test" for sharpness, or is that something else? ...always looking for a better way....
 
Also I would like to add, I have only picked up one set of knives submitted for MS judging that I could not find some minor flaws on. Much less I can always find something that I would try to correct on just about any knife I would think about submitting. I have to decide when I accept what I have and go for it.
 
No the thumbnail test check overall staightness of the entire knife from side to side.

Lay the knife on its side put your thumb on the surface so the nail is facing the knife, and lightly scribe a line on your thumbnail. ( I will take a pic later). Turn it over and do it again and see if the point runs in the same mark. This is on the completed knife. It should be exact.
 
Adam D. showed me that trick at the pre-funk (thumbnail test) and later I showed it to Phil Millam in the parking lot at the show... a very simple and effective test for symmetry in a knife!:thumbup:
 
Right, right. All good.
I didn't look closely at either knife at the show, Chuck. You should have pinned me down. I know you know what the mistakes are and I honestly don't know how perfect something has to be. Both Rodebaugh and Dunkerly were there at the Seattle show and they both have judged for the ABS. (Rick Dunkerly was one of the seven judges in my M.S. test. and Rodebaugh was one of my J.S. judges.) I (we) really should have talked to them a bit about the judging process. - duh.

One thing that has come up here that I still haven't really addressed is the knife styles used in testing. Your big bowie reminded me that I really do need to discuss that a bit here, because I wouldn't suggest you use that Bowie for an M.S. test. (J.S. probably would be fine.) It's the handle. The handle is just a touch long for a bowie knife, but aside from that, the style itself is hybrid from the Borang or Bolo and while very cool, functional and beautiful, the judges MIGHT feel that it doesn't belong on a bowie knife of this style. Keep in mind I'm talking about the actual knives submitted for your M.S. test, not an award winning knife, which it could be, or a knife for sale. Okay?

I still haven't done the research I promised earlier on this, because it is a big deal. Someone told me early on when I was getting ready to work on my test knives that all I had to do to pass was to make the same knives that Jerry Fisk makes. I thought that was pretty crass and obviously didn't do it. However, I don't think you can just do whatever you want either. Let's get back to that a little later in the week.
 
A C Richards said:
Thank you fiddleback, there in is a good example. Not to cut down my own work, but most if US know where the problems are on our own work. For these two, the primary focus was speed. I did the best job I could in the short time I had. There were minor flaws that in no way affect function.

The following is in the context of MS submission and my own point of view.

The Damascus bowie. The pattern is not consistent ie it is kind of smashed at the belly. I personally would never submit a knife with a handle like this due to the impossibility of getting the symmetry the judges are looking for, no reason to given them something to fail you on. The plunges, though I think they were pretty darned close I did not take the time to verify they were as close to exact as possible. And finally another reason not to use this type handle material, I am not positive it would have passed the old thumbnail test for overall straightness.

The big bowie. Now I have to admit, this one is close. Some problems I saw on very close scrutiny were,

The clip bevels are not perfectly even. The left side was a bit heavier. This one should have passed the thumbnail test but I did not actually check it. There was a possibility on this one also of the plunges being slightly off. They looked really close but taken the time and with the micrometer eyes of the judges may have been off enough to get a strike.

Now let me say, there is nothing "WRONG" with either of these knives. I just did not look at them with and eye for the MS test. Yes it makes a difference. The plunges off by .010 would be ok on most knives but not on an MS submission. Would any one of these flaws have failed me? Probably not, however the combination of them might have. I hope this illustrates at least my pov of what we need to think about when getting ready for testing.
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I look at the same things with all of my knives. My current "goal" is to have a knife I can post on the custom forum, and not be totally picked apart. I need to also consider at my price point, that I cannot take a week to finish a knife. There are always one or two flaws that prevent me from posting there. Its like my pre J.S. motivation.
 
raisedclipbowie_zps8d4b87f7.jpg



How about the open grained pores in something like this, or oak for example

Is that considered a finishing problem ?
 
Well, first, it's not something that would fail you in a test. A pit in your damascus - yes. An uneven piece of wood or ivory - yes.
That said, if they were really big natural seams in the wood or voids that were not filled, I would fail a guy for using crappy wood.
 
Now we are talking. These are MS/JS judging issues. I agree fully with all the points brought up. This hybrid style is not what the judges are looking for. The handle is a bit long and done so on purpose. But it might be a strike against me. The bog oak is a cool wood and considered to be high end but,, the voids (indicative of this wood) may make a person wonder just like the count. There is nothing wrong with any of those things but what are we trying to accomplish here? Making it through judging.

Here is an example of the thumbnail test

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now turn it over and do it again.


This was a knife a made a few years ago without knowing about this test. It was off significantly.

You can also do this with a soapstone, just not as readily available as a thumbnail.

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Hopefully you can see this was off by about .1". I can see it in the blade handle junction. I was not worried at the time as this knife was mine from the start and I needed to get it done fast. There again end user made the decision. This knife would not be allowed out of the shop today.
 
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Yeah, that is a great test and an easy one the judges can do in the room. They don't take in calipers or any sort of measuring equipment, but if I were a judge I'd have tons of scratches on my fingernails. Especially on the dagger because the tip needs to be in the center four ways, not just two - that takes in the pommel and guard as well. Very tough...
 
Much better pics.

So, Chuck, you agreed with me that the hybrid handle wouldn't be a good choice for an M.S. test knife, but I'm still kind of at a loss to explain WHY in a way that a newbie could understand. You get it and can read between the lines, but the best I can come up with is that if you were competing in a 1000 yard sniper competition, you don't bring a 2" revolver. The ABS is a forging organization and there just are certain styles of knives they are looking for for the test. So, you bring a knife that will pass inspection according to some general, if slightly vague, guidelines. After, the test, I don't really think they care what you put on the table. What do you guys think? And can someone put up a pic of Deitrich's test knives? (We were talking about them on page one.) Let's take a look at what is really going on.
 
Yes I agree that the handle on my bowie would not be a good submission for the MS test. Though there are not any specific rules regarding acceptable entries, there are some that will make it easier in the long run. The southwest bowie that is well balanced is a prime example. Not necessarily weight balance but flow balance. Symmetry is very important. Though Audra Draper's dagger was anything but symmetrical. She pulled it of because of creativity. The flow was balanced and it made sense. Dietrich's knives are a great example of what they are looking for at the JS level. Clean, somewhat simple, well designed knives. Though they are a bit out there design wise, they fit what they are looking for.
 
elementfe said:
Michael, what defines an ABS Journeyman knife?
I've heard that they probably aren't going to pass another set like Deitrich's wonderful ones, and when I get to JS I'm ok with it being an exercise, with doing it to suit a set of parameters, but beyond looking at successful test knives, what would you say the boundaries are?
Thanks for making yourself available for questions!!
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Thanks for the pics. So, first off, I haven't followed anything the ABS has been saying about these knives, but one thing jumps out at me: the width of the ricasso should be the same width as the start of the handle - for flow. Now, if it is true that the ABS won't pass knives that look like Deitrich's in future J.S. tests, well...
And if they would be allowed in J.S. but not M.S. I would need to know why. I think I'm just going to have to say that I still don't know. I really wish I talked with Dunkerly and Rodebagh about this...
I think the bottom-line is that... well, crap... I don't know...
 
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