The 4034 knives are starting to roll out. First real world testing shows promising results

[deadzonepatrol]

I know my opinions / knowledge base is out of date , maybe there are some really super tough stainless available nowadays ?

The problem with some of these stainless steel tempered for hardness may seem like good choppers with good edge retention , up to at point .

But in the olden days some were nearly as brittle as ceramic .

I bought a fancy , stupid expensive Al Mar Pathfinder way back when .

Went out to clear thru a bunch of hardwood samplings , small branches , etc .

Hilly area with poor rocky thin soil and mature cover , so these samplings actually had very concentrated growth rings and were super tough .

At first , no problems . Cut fine , no edge damage etc .

But then I grabbed the handle two handed and swung with everything I had , trying to make a clean through cut with one stroke .

After a few times , the whole shiny ass, expensive, hyped up POS blade, forward of the hilt , went flying into the woods .

It was catastrophic , instantaneous (to my senses ) failure .

Great looking one second , flying apart the next instant .

So... until I see some kind of proof testing that specially challenges toughness and flexibility , compared to more standard carbon steel with good tough HT , I wouldn't hard use / survival carry one of these 4034 for any price , or even for free .

I'm willing to change my mind .

Hi DocJD. Out of curiosity, do you remember what steel that Al Mar Pathfinder was made of?

 

[deadzonepatrol]

While everyone is on the 4034 hate train, which most definitely includes 4 fingers pointing back at me, as I have said plenty negative regarding the steel choice, It should be noted that his further testing shows the new 4034 holding an edge better than the older Cold Steel Carbon V steel. Granted, it's just one test, one sample, but it's a start.

That's got to be something going on there that's not quite kosher. A low end stainless holding an edge better than Carbon V? It doesn't pass the smell test.

 

[deadzonepatrol]

Again, I'm just saying a lot of the common "knowledge" that is parroted about simple high carbon steels is wrong (ie 1095 has great edge retention and toughness....this is absolutely false.....people say it because they don't know any better).

Empirical testing dispells these myths.


I own a lot of 1095, enough 5160 and other spring steels, lots of stainless of most flavors...

I've forged and made knives out of 1080, 5160, 15n20...

Owned and used a lot of INFI, cpm3v, 52100, A2, cpm154, 440c, 420hc, 4116 Krupp, Aus8a, Vg10, Vg1, AEBL, 1070, 1055, 1065, 1084,
5160, 6150, L6, 15n20 and about 20 other steels I'm too lazy to look up.

I'm saying that 4034, based on its carbon content and manufacturer should have small carbide, and high toughness.....CS is likely to have a some what decent best treat on the steel. It is not going to blow anyone away with edge retention,

So people shouting it is going to shatter if it chops wood, or cuts a pig are likely incorrect.

Many of the most impressive cuts you see happening with Cold Steel swords is happening with their 1055...an absolutely lowest of the low low carbon steel..... absolutely terrible edge retention....but plenty tough (much more so than 1095, or CarbonV). Their cpm3v knives are dandy, I've owned and used one of their laminated SanMai trailmasters too.

Again I'm not planning on buying one in 4034...I would not have bought it in O1 or A2 either (both are only marginally tougher than 1095 (1095 at about 10 ftlbs toughness pretty low, A2 and 01 are only marginally tougher at 15 ftlbs....1084 can be up at 25 ftlbs, 52100 will get you 30 ftlbs 5160 at 45 ftlbs, Aebl at about 37).

What is the Best Budget Knife Steel? - Knife Steel Nerds

There are man high-end powder metallurgy knife steels. But what about the knife buyer/maker that wants a lower cost option? What's the best choice?

knifesteelnerds.com

Is the difference between 10 (1095 steel) and 15 ft/lbs (A2 or O-1) only a marginal difference? Seems to me that's a pretty significant difference.

 

[deadzonepatrol]

I think if you are comparing 4034 to 1095 or CarbonV you will find the 4034 to be tougher and have equal or slightly better edge retention.

I have not seen toughness levels for 4034 yet, but it is close to 420HC which is extremely tough (surprisingly much tougher than 1095). Low carbide volume, fine grain size is a recipe for toughness.

420HC, AEBL, and 14c28n are examples of this and much tougher than 1095. They are actually a bit tougher than 52100, much tougher than A2, 01, vg10 and cpm154.

People act like 1095 or carbonV have stellar toughness and edge retention, but neither is true.

1095 is 10 Foof lbs ot less in common hardness.


I have not seen toughness data for 4034 specifically, but based on its carbon content i would expect good toughness (provided a good hest treat).



I'd love to see knifesteelnerds.com get their hands on some test samples.

Now....replacing 3v with 4034 and keeping prices similar is going to be bad for business.

That same swap with a price point much lower makes more sense.

I'm not in the market for a khukri currently as I have a few in 5160 from HI, and a few others.

I'm looking for toughness data on 4034 myself too.

 

[deadzonepatrol]

I think if you are comparing 4034 to 1095 or CarbonV you will find the 4034 to be tougher and have equal or slightly better edge retention.

I have not seen toughness levels for 4034 yet, but it is close to 420HC which is extremely tough (surprisingly much tougher than 1095). Low carbide volume, fine grain size is a recipe for toughness.

420HC, AEBL, and 14c28n are examples of this and much tougher than 1095. They are actually a bit tougher than 52100, much tougher than A2, 01, vg10 and cpm154.

People act like 1095 or carbonV have stellar toughness and edge retention, but neither is true.

1095 is 10 Foof lbs ot less in common hardness.


I have not seen toughness data for 4034 specifically, but based on its carbon content i would expect good toughness (provided a good hest treat).



I'd love to see knifesteelnerds.com get their hands on some test samples.

Now....replacing 3v with 4034 and keeping prices similar is going to be bad for business.

That same swap with a price point much lower makes more sense.

I'm not in the market for a khukri currently as I have a few in 5160 from HI, and a few others.

I'll have to go back and try to see the knife steel nerds data on 420HC.

But what about 4116, which Cold Steel also likes to use. Isn't 4116 very similar to 4034? Actually, I was thinking why didn't CS just use 4116 instead of 4034?

As far as 4116 toughness, 4116 is only about 7.5 ft/lbs @HRC 57 on the knifesteelnerds chart. I had a thread about this a little while back. https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-dreaded-steel-thread.1766928/ There was also a thread awhile back in the general discussion forum called "Why does everyone think 1095 is tough?", wherein it was noted that the knife steel nerds testing had 1095 at 10 ft/lbs, which would be tougher than 4116.

Also, I can't see how 4034 would have better edge retention than something like Carbon V? Would you explain in more detail why that would be?

 

[Jim malone]

Iirc 4034 is the same as 1.4034 krupp steel. The German have used these in their Solingen made hunting knives for a very long time. Edge retention is bleh compared to modern steel but remember these hunters did not have diamand coated sharpening stones or a fancy sharpening systems. No hunter i know, nor me, wants a knife with a steel (like say S90V ) that takes hours to sharpen with conventional stones ( if even possible) or needs to be send to the factory to be sharpened. But this german steel can get scary sharp, is tough and is pretty corrosion resistant. The Germans have their heat treatment pretty good under control. If you look at say the old Puma knives, these where made out of 1.4034 steel and nobody complains that they are junk.
I have a few Solingen knives made from this steel and i don't have any complaints about the steel. Now i don't batton with the blades or use my knives to cut miles and miles of cardboard every day on the job. For the average joe this steel, when properly heat treated will perform for their needs. And Cold Steel seems to be going in the direction of bringing knives to their public that are affordable and perform well under normal conditions. We are spoiled with our supersteels but when i explain to non knife people that i have two identical knives and one of them costs 2 times more because the blade is made out of S90V and will cut twice the amount of cardboard in a cutting test but i can't sharpen it myself without special equipment think i'm a fool for buying it! I believe average joe will be pleased by this steel.

 

[deadzonepatrol]

Again, I'm just saying a lot of the common "knowledge" that is parroted about simple high carbon steels is wrong (ie 1095 has great edge retention and toughness....this is absolutely false.....people say it because they don't know any better).

Empirical testing dispells these myths.


I own a lot of 1095, enough 5160 and other spring steels, lots of stainless of most flavors...

I've forged and made knives out of 1080, 5160, 15n20...

Owned and used a lot of INFI, cpm3v, 52100, A2, cpm154, 440c, 420hc, 4116 Krupp, Aus8a, Vg10, Vg1, AEBL, 1070, 1055, 1065, 1084,
5160, 6150, L6, 15n20 and about 20 other steels I'm too lazy to look up.

I'm saying that 4034, based on its carbon content and manufacturer should have small carbide, and high toughness.....CS is likely to have a some what decent best treat on the steel. It is not going to blow anyone away with edge retention,

So people shouting it is going to shatter if it chops wood, or cuts a pig are likely incorrect.

Many of the most impressive cuts you see happening with Cold Steel swords is happening with their 1055...an absolutely lowest of the low low carbon steel..... absolutely terrible edge retention....but plenty tough (much more so than 1095, or CarbonV). Their cpm3v knives are dandy, I've owned and used one of their laminated SanMai trailmasters too.

Again I'm not planning on buying one in 4034...I would not have bought it in O1 or A2 either (both are only marginally tougher than 1095 (1095 at about 10 ftlbs toughness pretty low, A2 and 01 are only marginally tougher at 15 ftlbs....1084 can be up at 25 ftlbs, 52100 will get you 30 ftlbs 5160 at 45 ftlbs, Aebl at about 37).

What is the Best Budget Knife Steel? - Knife Steel Nerds

There are man high-end powder metallurgy knife steels. But what about the knife buyer/maker that wants a lower cost option? What's the best choice?

knifesteelnerds.com

I don't know if anyone said that 1095 has great edge retention. It's easy to sharpen, that's about it. And about toughness, 1095 is tougher than cheap stainless, like 4116. So compared to cheap stainless, it is tough.

But that said, we buy knives, not steel. Companies like TOPS use 1095, and their knives are pretty tough. It comes down to differential heat treat for the spine/edge, edge geometry, knife design. Even a low end steel can be turned into a tough knife by using good design and heat treat.

I know Barry Dawson used to make swords out of 440C. Not a steel that you'd expect in a sword, but apparently it passed muster. Ontario made its Bill Bagwell Hell's Belle bowie out of 440A, which steel selection I assume Bagwell allowed, even though he blasted stainless in his writings. Boker made some of their bowies out of 4034. Muela and other Spanish knives are made out of 4116 or maybe a European equivalent of 440A. So stainless is definitely not junk in big knives or swords. It can be made into a tough knife or sword, when done right.

What it comes down to is that Cold Steel appears to be taking a step (or maybe a dozen steps) backward from using Carbon V or SK5, while elevating prices sky high. If 4034 was so tough and had good edge retention better than 1095, then why didn't CS use it from the very beginning? Heck, why didn't TOPS, Busse and every other knife company use 4034 in big knives? It just seems that CS is using too much bluster, while prices are going in the wrong direction.

 

[DocJD]

Hi DocJD. Out of curiosity, do you remember what steel that Al Mar Pathfinder was made of?

Nope . This was before companies bothered to tell you , mostly . Or made up some mysterious name like "CarbonV" .

Mostly a bad HT , I suspect .

 

[deadzonepatrol]

Nope . This was before companies bothered to tell you , mostly . Or made up some mysterious name like "CarbonV" .

Mostly a bad HT , I suspect .

Thanks. Nameless Stainless, I guess.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

I don't buy the "affordability" argument when these 4034 knives cost significantly more than the ones they replaced, or almost as much as the 3V knives if those are what they replaced.

It is more like they want to make cheap knives but charge more for them. I can see this working for those who are not already into Cold Steel.

 

[DocJD]

I can see this working for those who are not already into Cold Steel.

Depends on how these buyers use them and how they actually perform .

Lot of people buy knives , guns and other gear, "just in case " of trouble / SHTF and never really use them . Not even for practice .

Others will watch old CS proof videos and then need to do (or try to outdo ) the same kind of tests , but without the requisite skills .

And post a video , especially if they break something .

 

[Jim malone]

I don't buy the "affordability" argument when these 4034 knives cost significantly more than the ones they replaced, or almost as much as the 3V knives if those are what they replaced.

It is more like they want to make cheap knives but charge more for them. I can see this working for those who are not already into Cold Steel.

If they indeed ask a similar price for the 4034 knives compared to 3V then they are going "lean and mean". Remember that C.S. has been bought by a multinational who's sole reason of excistance is making money for the shareholders. I've worked for a few companies like that in the past and their CEO or board only cares about making money. Going lean means getting as much output with the least input. Sad as it may seen GSM bought C.S. to make money and lots of it. If you look at their new products they churn out, or the fact that they don't seem to care about keeping a loyal customer base ( by not having a forum or representing themselve on here) are good indicators that they don't see "us" ad their main objective. They seem to be going for volume instead of quality. And they use the rep C.S. has earned itself as tough as nails knives to sustain the believe that C.S. is still the same brand it was before. But they will try to cut corners to try and make the products as cheap as possible and the markup as high as possible. And if fools are willing to pay a premium for basic steel they won't change that. The pricing policy is probably a feeler to see how the market reacts about the change of ownership. Probably they will mix some higher quality knives with basic tools to try to keep their name brand up. But the fact that they started selling pull thru sharpeners is a clear signal to me that they are not trying to make the best knife money can buy for a few hundred specialised knife collectors. They are gearing up to flood the market with affordable knives for the average joe. Nobody but us cares if the knife they bought is 3V or 4034. As long if it looks good, cuts ok, can be sharpened and won't break after the first try people will buy Cold Steel because they heard from their hunting buddies that cold steel is a good affordable knife. We just have to deal with it. If tomorrow Spyderco or Benchmade gets sold to GSM we have to reconsider buying their products. But i believe hoping for a return of the good old days is nostalgia. The signs are pretty obvious that GSM did not buy C.S. to do us a favor.

 

[Jim malone]

And i'm really hoping i'm wrong!

 

[whp]

And i'm really hoping i'm wrong!

I hope you are too.

The best companies look beyond the short term and try to maintain a reputation for quality. At least some do. Of course Gerber is still around.

 

[Frotier76]

Iirc 4034 is the same as 1.4034 krupp steel. The German have used these in their Solingen made hunting knives for a very long time. Edge retention is bleh compared to modern steel but remember these hunters did not have diamand coated sharpening stones or a fancy sharpening systems. No hunter i know, nor me, wants a knife with a steel (like say S90V ) that takes hours to sharpen with conventional stones ( if even possible) or needs to be send to the factory to be sharpened. But this german steel can get scary sharp, is tough and is pretty corrosion resistant. The Germans have their heat treatment pretty good under control. If you look at say the old Puma knives, these where made out of 1.4034 steel and nobody complains that they are junk.
I have a few Solingen knives made from this steel and i don't have any complaints about the steel. Now i don't batton with the blades or use my knives to cut miles and miles of cardboard every day on the job. For the average joe this steel, when properly heat treated will perform for their needs. And Cold Steel seems to be going in the direction of bringing knives to their public that are affordable and perform well under normal conditions. We are spoiled with our supersteels but when i explain to non knife people that i have two identical knives and one of them costs 2 times more because the blade is made out of S90V and will cut twice the amount of cardboard in a cutting test but i can't sharpen it myself without special equipment think i'm a fool for buying it! I believe average joe will be pleased by this steel.

I think there was a lot of confusion put online when 4034 was first recorded by the third-party steel sites. 4034 is from the NIROSTA Series by Thyssen-Krupp and does have that 1.00% silicon in the composition. I had to look that up because I've never heard of a low-end rated cutlery grade stainless steel not possessing a lot of silicon. On a lighter note, there's this....

This young man has also done multiple cut tests with 420HC by Buck, Leatherman, Case, and Gerber. That 4034 outperformed all of them but he doesn't admit that and remains very ho-hum about the steel. I guess because it was heat-treated in Taiwan he wanted to avoid discussing the performance differential from American knife manufacturers. I think folders in the $30-$40 range can get away with 4034 if the knife is nice enough. The Buck 110 has went up $20 in retail cost over the past five years and people have their limits on what they'll pay for 420HC.

 

[seacucumber]

cons:
1. mystery composition and manufacturer: zknives claims they know this. They claimed its Krupp, but I didn't find it on Krupp's site.
2. few tests
3. no CS tests

toughness tests:
Mathew Culbertson: Carbon V LTC Kukri v.s 4034 Gurkha Kukri Plus
Carbon V snapped. 4034 didn't.

JOE X: COLD STEEL RANGE BOSS

 

[goldie]

I used a 4034 kiridashi for a while ;it didnt seem to hold an edge for a long time, and the more i used it the faster it seemed to dull. I dont even use it anymore because its so disappointing. I t was used for general purpose things like cutting bags open, slicing cardboard, things like that nothing abusive....

 

[jdk1]

I didn't watch the video, but want to point out the LTC is 1/8" thick at the spine. Well, most are, anyway. There was a run of 3/16" versions, but its uncommon. So, he compared a 1/8" spine against a 5/16" spine? I could take the biggest baddest Busse and break it before I broke a piece of mild steel angle iron!

I'll add that I have had a Carbon V LTC, just the lowly 1/8" version, since the mid-90's and found it to be one of the best big blades I've owned. If dropped into a forest with only that blade, I couldn't blame equipment for my failure to survive. It is light weight, holds a sharp edge and I've beat mine like a borrowed mule with no sign of even a loose handle. I carried it in west Texas and in draws and vegas, used the spine to break mesquite limbs to clear a path. The edge for carrizo and the spine for mesquite and she took everything I could throw at her and asked for more.

An SK5 Gurkha against the same in 4034 is what we need to see. If 4034 can hold an edge like, and be as tough as SK5, ill be first in line to grab a Gurkha in SS. In the mean time, my China doll Gurkha in SK5 can handle more work than my arm can!

 

[Chris_Texas]

I see a good number of older posts in this thread extolling the secret virtues of 4034ss. It's better than everything, and at every task. It's better than 1095,85,75, A2, O1, Carbon V, 440c, and even 3V. What doesn't it do?

And yet somehow this metallurgical miracle, which has been around for a century or so, escaped the notice of EVERYONE until GSM discovered it in the bargain bin at their local metalmart. Actually, to be more precise, every knife maker knew l about it, tested it, and every one of them relegated it for use as junk filler like back spacers and handle liners.

I will cut to my opinion. I'm sure 4034 is a fine knife metal when priced accordingly. A $30 machete or Bowie in 4034 is probably a fair deal. A $25 pocketknife for your nephew will give him a great start ingredient to sharpen. But if you really need it to work consider something better. Hell, buy something from Condor.

 

[CA504]

This kind of reminds me of the Bagwell series bowies (Gambler, Hell’s Belle, etc) by Ontario that were made of a “proprietary” 440 stainless that was tempered to a low hardness. Being that they were dedicated fighters, those blades didn’t need to be as tough as something like an SP53. I don’t recall too many people complaining about the Belle’s quality.

So at least with blades like the Laredo and Natchez, which are fighting blades, I think 4034 is going to be adequate considering the requirements of a fighter, as long as the construction quality and blade geometry doesn’t differ from the 3V models.

Although, I definitely see the problem using this steel with bushcrafting knives or any application that requires the edge retention of a harder steel.