The "Ask Nathan a Question" Thread

Nathan the Machinist said:
Since this is the anaq thread, I shall ask the rhetorical question. Why do we recycle?

That's a good question Nate!

What are your qualifications to discuss this?

I'm a college-educated product designer with a focus on materials and processes and decades experience as a plastic product design consultant.

Glass can be recycled indefinitely. But, it's also made from one of the most common substances on Earth and disposing of it causes no long-term consequences because it's completely non-toxic. So, recycle it if you want. Don't if you don't. It doesn't matter.

Paper becomes drastically weaker every time it is recycled and pine tree farms is a real thing now. If we want more virgin would we just grow it. Recycle it if you want. Don't if you don't. It doesn't matter.

Aluminum can be recycled indefinitely. And it should because the cost of the material is greater than the cost to extract it from the recycled material stream. They will tell you it's because it's saving the planet but aluminum (one of the most common elements on the surface of the Earth) is non-toxic when it degrades, the only environmental consequence of its production is the electricity. And, when you look at the power requirements of Bitcoin mining and this new artificial intelligence industry, it is a rounding error that rounds down to zero. It is of no consequence. So, recycle it if you want. Don't if you don't. It doesn't matter.



Polyethylene terephthalate is a valuable engineering grade of thermoplastic that makes sense to recycle, under some circumstances. This is the clear PET drink bottles and if it is a thick bottle, it is valuable. It is recycled because the value of the material exceeds the price to recycle it and there is a need for second rate PET for things like synthetic fleece and cheap carpet. There are people who want it and it is readily recycled. Although they're really thin water bottles they make these days, the juice ain't worth the squeeze. Recycle it if you want. Don't if you don't. It doesn't matter.

Same thing is true for polyethylene. Milk jugs etc. this is a plastic that can be made from natural gas which is sometimes a discarded byproduct of oil production. It is literally cheaper than dirt. Recycle it if you want. Don't if you don't. It doesn't matter.

Pretty much every other kind of plastic that could be recycled probably isn't because the cost of recycling it exceeds the value of the finished product. There are people and places who claim to recycle but what they actually do is they put their waste plastic on the empty shipping containers going back to China as ballast. Where they either burn it or offloaded to other countries where the labor to sort it is lower. And it largely just ends up dumped in the ocean.

(In Archer Mallory's voice): do you want microplastics? Because that is how you get microplastics.

So you have things like Keurig K-Cups and their claim that their cups are "made from 100% recyclable polypropylene". Folks, the value of the plastic in that cup versus the cost to reclaim it, nobody is recycling these.* And Keurig knows that. But their claims that they are somehow ecologically conscientious are absolute nonsense and they know it.

*For clarity. Everybody is recycling these. Meaning they're putting this useless garbage into the plastic recycle stream and just creating a bigger problem. But it is not actually getting recycled. It is being dumped into the ocean and it is finding its way into your dinner.


So, why do we recycle? We recycle because the plastic industry recognized they had a huge problem on their hands and they created this recycling fantasy and the reality is, other than pet and polyethylene, it serves no purpose except makes their business model sustainable and makes you feel better.
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Your Jib. I like the cut of it. 🧐
 
My favorite kind of "recycling" is the plastics processing industry where scrap parts that are out of spec get ground up and fed back into the machine to be run again. They get to claim that they recycled and they will mark their product. The material does degrade but as long as it only makes a small percentage of the finished part it's fine.

But here's the thing, they were going to do that anyways.
 
We recycle aluminum. Sometimes glass because they don't charge for it. Paper and a lot of plastic we mostly burn, on the theory that we would probably be burning equivalent wood instead of the paper, and putting plastic combustion products into the atmosphere is probably maybe better than putting microplastics into the ocean. We do tend to recycle steel as well, because we're taking the aluminum in anyway. Kinda wonder how much recycled dog food can there might be in Mexican rebar.
 
Nathan

I appreciate the education in regards to richlite and the all too familiar recycling scam we have been fed. All our recycling is fed to the Far East. The funny aspect is most cans have very little aluminum in it and most of the insides are lined in plastic. The most metal on the can resides in the tab.

My brother who is a Chem E and has worked for the oil industry in the past explained to me that oil itself is far more regenerative than what we are led to believe and far more abundant. It just takes effort money to extract. Most of oil is decomposed plant matter it’s rather ironic considering what it’s comprised of and the marketing name of fossil fuels.

I do think there is a place for certain products and uses but overall I do feel the same as you. If I am looking for a high performance tight tolerance product than virgin material is certainly the only way to go.

I can see why you do not use richlite and will not as it does not fit your value proposition as a business model nor does it meet your design intentions of creating the most durable highest quality product on the market.

Thanks again your response was excellent and educational.
 
Fonedork said:
I went to a recycling plant about 15 years ago for a school trip. They pulled out some of the metal and literally just burned everything else lol
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Yup - not just the manufacturers fault.

In CA, we separated stuff in 3 different trash cans. Only for them to be merged together at the county recycling place / dump. They stopped treating them separately due to costs. We ended up bringing cans and bottles to a private place (and made some money, too).
 
JearBeatus48 said:
Nathan

I appreciate the education in regards to richlite and the all too familiar recycling scam we have been fed. All our recycling is fed to the Far East. The funny aspect is most cans have very little aluminum in it and most of the insides are lined in plastic. The most metal on the can resides in the tab.

My brother who is a Chem E and has worked for the oil industry in the past explained to me that oil itself is far more regenerative than what we are led to believe and far more abundant. It just takes effort money to extract. Most of oil is decomposed plant matter it’s rather ironic considering what it’s comprised of and the marketing name of fossil fuels.

I do think there is a place for certain products and uses but overall I do feel the same as you. If I am looking for a high performance tight tolerance product than virgin material is certainly the only way to go.

I can see why you do not use richlite and will not as it does not fit your value proposition as a business model nor does it meet your design intentions of creating the most durable highest quality product on the market.

Thanks again your response was excellent and educational.
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While it's true that aluminum cans use less aluminum than they used to, and they do have a plastic lining of some sort. I don't think it's true to say that there's more metal in the tab than there is in the rest of the can. There is a significant amount of aluminum in a six pack and it probably does make sense to recycle it from the simple point of view that it would be hypocritical of me to complain about how expensive it is to buy new aluminum while throwing it into the landfill at the same time. I am pretty hypocritical sometimes though.

The cost of aluminum = the cost of electricity - recycled aluminum input.

It's my understanding that the mechanism behind the creation of fossil fuels wouldn't work today because there are new (in geological terms) fungi and bacteria that can break down cellulose materials that didn't exist a billion years ago.

From Google:

During the Carboniferous period (about 359 to 299 million years ago), trees were abundant but did not decompose efficiently when they died.
This was because bacteria and fungi had not yet evolved the necessary enzymes, like those needed to break down lignin, the tough polymer that gives wood its structure.
Without organisms to decompose them, dead trees piled up, forming the peat that eventually turned into the large coal deposits we use today.

Obviously this line of reasoning doesn't work for everyone. For example, I have a relative who believes the Earth is only a few thousand years old because of his religion and this understanding of the origin of fossil fuels would require an older Earth than that.

It is safe to say however that I don't know how fossil fuels are made. But it is my understanding that the Earth isn't making more of it.
 
Nathan, were you a machinist first or a knife maker first?

I've been a knife maker for about 4 years now and I'm 1 month into a new job as an apprentice machinist and I can already tell it's going to improve my knife making!

Just figured I'd ask since you seem to know a lot about both topics!
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
While it's true that aluminum cans use less aluminum than they used to, and they do have a plastic lining of some sort. I don't think it's true to say that there's more metal in the tab than there is in the rest of the can. There is a significant amount of aluminum in a six pack and it probably does make sense to recycle it from the simple point of view that it would be hypocritical of me to complain about how expensive it is to buy new aluminum while throwing it into the landfill at the same time. I am pretty hypocritical sometimes though.

The cost of aluminum = the cost of electricity - recycled aluminum input.

It's my understanding that the mechanism behind the creation of fossil fuels wouldn't work today because there are new (in geological terms) fungi and bacteria that can break down cellulose materials that didn't exist a billion years ago.

From Google:

During the Carboniferous period (about 359 to 299 million years ago), trees were abundant but did not decompose efficiently when they died.
This was because bacteria and fungi had not yet evolved the necessary enzymes, like those needed to break down lignin, the tough polymer that gives wood its structure.
Without organisms to decompose them, dead trees piled up, forming the peat that eventually turned into the large coal deposits we use today.

Obviously this line of reasoning doesn't work for everyone. For example, I have a relative who believes the Earth is only a few thousand years old because of his religion and this understanding of the origin of fossil fuels would require an older Earth than that.

It is safe to say however that I don't know how fossil fuels are made. But it is my understanding that the Earth isn't making more of it.
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Your relative probably believes the earth is roughly 6,000 years old
 
DeadPineKnives said:
Nathan, were you a machinist first or a knife maker first?

I've been a knife maker for about 4 years now and I'm 1 month into a new job as an apprentice machinist and I can already tell it's going to improve my knife making!

Just figured I'd ask since you seem to know a lot about both topics!
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Knife making and machining are both interests that I picked up as a teenager. I couldn't say which came first.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
He is required to believe that because his faith tells him too

I have been told that I am required to respect other faiths and cultures. Sometimes I struggle though...
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Nathan, would I be incorrect in my conjecture that you don't always believe what you're told, particularly when it regards things being required of you? (to make up for no question in my previous post )😁
 
ferider said:
Yup - not just the manufacturers fault.

In CA, we separated stuff in 3 different trash cans. Only for them to be merged together at the county recycling place / dump. They stopped treating them separately due to costs. We ended up bringing cans and bottles to a private place (and made some money, too).
Click to expand...
77buqa8w22q31.jpg
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
While it's true that aluminum cans use less aluminum than they used to, and they do have a plastic lining of some sort. I don't think it's true to say that there's more metal in the tab than there is in the rest of the can. There is a significant amount of aluminum in a six pack and it probably does make sense to recycle it from the simple point of view that it would be hypocritical of me to complain about how expensive it is to buy new aluminum while throwing it into the landfill at the same time. I am pretty hypocritical sometimes though.

The cost of aluminum = the cost of electricity - recycled aluminum input.

It's my understanding that the mechanism behind the creation of fossil fuels wouldn't work today because there are new (in geological terms) fungi and bacteria that can break down cellulose materials that didn't exist a billion years ago.

From Google:

During the Carboniferous period (about 359 to 299 million years ago), trees were abundant but did not decompose efficiently when they died.
This was because bacteria and fungi had not yet evolved the necessary enzymes, like those needed to break down lignin, the tough polymer that gives wood its structure.
Without organisms to decompose them, dead trees piled up, forming the peat that eventually turned into the large coal deposits we use today.

Obviously this line of reasoning doesn't work for everyone. For example, I have a relative who believes the Earth is only a few thousand years old because of his religion and this understanding of the origin of fossil fuels would require an older Earth than that.

It is safe to say however that I don't know how fossil fuels are made. But it is my understanding that the Earth isn't making more of it.
Click to expand...
You're probably right on the can aspect. Hypocrisy is human nature I suppose, depending on how you feel at that moment your opinion may change and that's fine.

As far as oil goes, who knows. I am not sure other than: heat + pressure + decomposed organic matter = Oil. Besides this overly simplistic formula my knowledge is limited on this subject matter.
 
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