The "Ask Nathan a Question" Thread

[Nathan the Machinist]

Nathan

I have recently heard on a chopper you want the handle to be small on the inside and longer on the outside so when you grab it there is no restrictions on the palm side but with the handle to bite down on the inside not uncomfortably but a hug. With the inside being 4 inches or so and the outside being 5 to 5.25 inches.

I’m curious what is your take on this compared to your designs? I see you have a different design for your choppers for your intended purposes.

Thanks!

Wut?

 

[Moorik]

Yes, something like in the shape of a banana?


P.s
No, it's not like I went to get a banana just for the example. I took a banana, and then I remembered that description, and it seems like I understood

Edit p.s

No,i am not understand

 

[Casinostocks]

Sounds like an encapsulated type of handle inside a one piece block of wood or similar material?

#ainathan

 

[JearBeatus48]

Wut?

Smaller handle and grip like the photos with the brown chopper vs your larger handle version. Is there a reason you would have a smaller handle and thinner scales? Or is it optimal to have a larger handle like yours?

Not sure if this helps or not.

 

[yoko]

Smaller handle and grip like the photos with the brown chopper vs your larger handle version. Is there a reason you would have a smaller handle and thinner scales? Or is it optimal to have a larger handle like yours?

Not sure if this helps or not. View attachment 3152297View attachment 3152296

Are you talking about how you have and added grip by moving your hand to the back of the handle?

Grip towards the blade for more control, slide your hand back on the handle for a bit more power

 

[JearBeatus48]

Are you talking about how you have and added grip by moving your hand to the back of the handle?

Grip towards the blade for more control, slide your hand back on the handle for a bit more power

Ok yeah I am lol

Makes sense. Sometimes it’s the most obvious answer

 

[Crag the Brewer]

Smaller handle and grip like the photos with the brown chopper vs your larger handle version. Is there a reason you would have a smaller handle and thinner scales? Or is it optimal to have a larger handle like yours?

Not sure if this helps or not. View attachment 3152297View attachment 3152296

Are those 2 knives in the same category?
Nathan's is a chopper type, and the brown one looks like not a chopper?

 

[JearBeatus48]

Are those 2 knives in the same category?
Nathan's is a chopper type, and the brown one looks like not a chopper?

Brown one is 14 inch long 3/16 stock. Not mine I was talking to a maker about his philosophy and it was a bit different and wanted Nathan’s take.

 

[Burke]

Smaller handle and grip like the photos with the brown chopper vs your larger handle version. Is there a reason you would have a smaller handle and thinner scales? Or is it optimal to have a larger handle like yours?

Not sure if this helps or not. View attachment 3152297View attachment 3152296

In your picture comparing the two knives you can see that there is a lot more contouring and the pinky side pommel is slightly less pronounced on Nathan's but there's more 3-dimensional sculping over all. A larger handle (to a point) is better for a chopper and the sculpting on Nathan's does a lot to encourage you into a couple specific grips without locking you in. The brown knife with it's more pronounced pommel might be slightly better for retention all else being equal but it's also going to be tougher on your pinky, the lack of curve on the top side isn't ergonomic, and the lack of any drop means you won't be able to get as much power into chops due to how the blade will relate to your wrist angle.

When it comes to handle ergonomics with a few use specific exceptions if someone is doing handles differently than Nathan they are going to be doing them worse. Exceptions would be stuff like the cord-wrapped Joe Watsons where the intent is low profile carry and a very secure grip rather than prolonged use in multiple different grips. Will be interesting to see what Nathan ends up doing with a folder and the inherent constraints to handle size and design.

 

[Crag the Brewer]

In your picture comparing the two knives you can see that there is a lot more contouring and the pinky side pommel is slightly less pronounced on Nathan's but there's more 3-dimensional sculping over all. A larger handle (to a point) is better for a chopper and the sculpting on Nathan's does a lot to encourage you into a couple specific grips without locking you in. The brown knife with it's more pronounced pommel might be slightly better for retention all else being equal but it's also going to be tougher on your pinky, the lack of curve on the top side isn't ergonomic, and the lack of any drop means you won't be able to get as much power into chops due to how the blade will relate to your wrist angle.

When it comes to handle ergonomics with a few use specific exceptions if someone is doing handles differently than Nathan they are going to be doing them worse. Exceptions would be stuff like the cord-wrapped Joe Watsons where the intent is low profile carry and a very secure grip rather than prolonged use in multiple different grips. Will be interesting to see what Nathan ends up doing with a folder and the inherent constraints to handle size and design.

Can you please explain more....I'm not sure which you are referring to in the brown handle?

"the lack of curve on the top side isn't ergonomic, and the lack of any drop means you won't be able to get as much power into chops due to how the blade will relate to your wrist angle."

-What drop?

 

[yoko]

Can you please explain more....I'm not sure which you are referring to in the brown handle?

"the lack of curve on the top side isn't ergonomic, and the lack of any drop means you won't be able to get as much power into chops due to how the blade will relate to your wrist angle."

-What drop?

The CPK has an angle in the back part of the handle that will put more force into the target
#DefnotNathan (I'm probably wrong)

Comp choppers have the same thing

The spine on brown handle .....tip to butt is a straight line

CPK chopper is not

 

[ferider]

:

When it comes to handle ergonomics with a few use specific exceptions if someone is doing handles differently than Nathan they are going to be doing them worse. Exceptions would be stuff like the cord-wrapped Joe Watsons where the intent is low profile carry and a very secure grip rather than prolonged use in multiple different grips. Will be interesting to see what Nathan ends up doing with a folder and the inherent constraints to handle size and design.

Different. Wouldn’t say necessarily worse, really depends on the application …. Nathan’s chopper handles are great to keep a knife in the same position in hand all day. CPK‘s experience in competition shows, IMO. When you look at his butcher knives, the handles are different. The UF is different too, for a reason.

Sometimes, for instance, it’s good to be able to move around (back and forth on the handle) though. In the sense of a Kephart or an Axe handle.

 

[JearBeatus48]

Different. Wouldn’t say necessarily worse, really depends on the application …. Nathan’s chopper handles are great to keep a knife in the same position in hand all day. CPK‘s experience in competition shows, IMO. When you look at his butcher knives, the handles are different.

Sometimes it’s good to be able to move around (back and forth on the handle) though. In the sense of a Kephart or an Axe handle.

What’s the bottom chopper? Thanks

 

[yoko]

Zu bladeworx war monger I think

I love how that looks

 

[yoko]

Sorry Nathan the Machinist

Gunked up your thread

 

[ferider]

Zu bladeworx war monger I think

I love how that looks

Correct.

 

[Crag the Brewer]

The CPK has an angle in the back part of the handle that will put more force into the target
#DefnotNathan (I'm probably wrong)

Comp choppers have the same thing

The spine on brown handle .....tip to butt is a straight line

CPK chopper is not

Not sure of the spelling, but I call that cant/kant. The dropped angle. Yes, I know what You mean.... I must of misunderstood him, I was thinking he was talking about the butt/pommel. But how you described it seemed right.
Thanks.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

We did a lot of RD and prototyping on the chopper handles. I was out of my depths at first but I would consider myself to be a subject matter expert on it now.

We had actually tooled up and prepared to start production but stopped and scrapped the tooling and continued. This was a part of my tuition. It was humbling, how much I did not know at first. This is part of the reason why I am such an insufferable knife snob now.

I can tell you one thing for a fact. Knife handle design has to involve extended use because something that feels great when you pick it up and play with it is not necessarily ideal in real use, and this is something we had to learn. I believe we have the best handles for real use in the industry.

A there was lot of development at the beginning with input and prototypes from Lorien and Dan Keffeler with some smaller tweaks over time.

What's the difference between those handles? If you've really used them, it will be self evident.

Early versions had a deeper area in that pinky notch. It's one of those things that seems like a good idea and works fine when you're just holding it but when you actually put it to extended use it's clearly wrong.

The bulge in the middle and the drop at the back both conform to your palm better, and resist rotation. You do not want a broomstick handle, your blade will turn and you will bend a bevel.

The handle is wider at the top towards the front than it is at the bottom, but narrower at the top than it is at the bottom at the rear. All of my handles are this way and it's pretty obvious why if you ever look at the inside of your hand. It's a characteristic of a CPK knife. If you look at the contouring on that knock-off a couple pages back, you will see that they missed that.

In addition to the drop at the butt, within certain limits a larger circumference increases your hand grip's ability to apply torque to resist rotation. As a thought experiment, imagine turning the screwdriver from the handle side versus turning it from the tip side. You have a longer moment arm to apply torque. This is key to preventing harmful rotation and also reducing fatigue. This contributes to your safety, the well-being of the knife, and your comfort in extended use.

The handle on our chopper is long and narrower towards the front and wider towards the rear. You hold it towards the rear for heavy chopping and you hold it towards the front for use as a camp knife. It is helpful to choke up close to the blade for fine use, obviously. This also puts the balance point closer to being neutral which helps the blade be more controllable and comfortable. You hold the blade towards the rear for heavy chopping. This effectively moves the center of percussion of the blade back, which also moves the sweet spot back. When chopping you should be aiming to hit about an inch behind the center of percussion. You can find this point by slapping the side of the blade with your palm and finding the dead spot. That's your center of percussion. On my blades, I usually put the sweet spot right in the middle of the blade. By holding the chopper at the rear of the grip and moving the center of percussion back a little bit, you're effectively using a longer chopper. Experimentation shows the more blade you have in front of the center of percussion, the heavier it is, and the farther away it is, the deeper the blade bites. As a thought experiment, consider chopping with a blade holding it in the middle of the blade and then consider attaching the blade to a pole and swinging that. Which hits harder?

A longer handle, shaped the way this is shaped, is optimal for this kind of knife. There are no aesthetic considerations of any kind here.

Retention is primarily a function of the geometry in your palm, followed by material, followed by texture. That little curve for your pinky is the wrong way to do it on a chopper. Anyone who has done extended work with one will see that.

 

[JearBeatus48]

Thank you for the detailed factual response in regards to the design element of your choppers ergonomics.

This makes sense. I do not own the other chopper in the photo, but I’m happy to hear this as my originally theory was along the same vein as what you discussed above (not so deep nor thought provoking) that made me second guess the other makers philosophy. I don’t like getting an argument so I just said ok to said maker. But it wasn’t adding up.

Now I did use another chopper this weekend on a tree and it worked well but I did miss my BC! I have it out for a beautiful custom leather sheath like it deserves. But it was sorely missed.

The points about hand displacement during/in impact makes sense as I noticed that as well with the other chopper but it was well mitigated with the BC. I’m stoked to put them to use moving forwards!!

Really do appreciate the insights to your design and implantation process along with the why it’s designed that way. I find the why as interesting as the tool itself. Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me.

 

[XtianAus]

The cut for the index finger is tight and forward, moving the hand close to the edge. The guard is useful, well shaped and drops a good distance. The plunge and the choil are not aligned. It's good, elegant, well thought out design and engineering.

It needs a small thumb ramp with mild jimping though...

What about this one?
I don't think i've seen anything else like it before