The Bears' Den--Shirogorov Showcase

[Ron Sabbagh]

I spent almost two years in that “gotta try ‘em all” mode before I settled into Shiros and CRKs. I wish I’d settled into this groove earlier, but at least I got here before spending a few thou more on Koenigs, Hinderers and other high end brands. Now that I’ve got one of each Shiro size I feel like I’m set with Shiros ... but ... if they release a F3NS with those beautiful old Python Micarta scales I’ll grab one the minute I see them available.

You can see from my join date that I've been at this for awhile. I agree with your comments regarding CRK (will always have one around) and Shiro.
Also, I carry and use my GEC traditionals more than my customs. For now, I can honestly say I'm satisfied with these 3 brands.

SHIRO
CRK
GEC

 

[rileybassman1]

Anyone have a Neon Zero and a ZT 0470 they can compare? I have the 0470 and am debating about the neon zero and was curious as to how they compare size-wise and in the hand etc...

 

[Landshark99]

I was fortunate to pick up a lightly used F95R, great deal , very happy with my 10th Shiro

 

[Cold Bananas]

What's typical lockup on a 95? Saw one recently that was maxed out against the lockbar shoulder (still only about 40% total lock up) and seemed to hold great with no stickiness of any kind etc. How is this supposed to further wear over time?

 

[SVTFreak]

The steel should not wear. I’ve been carrying various frame locks for about 7 years now and haven’t had one wear. It’s not a high stress, high wear motion or area.

 

[rileybassman1]

What's typical lockup on a 95? Saw one recently that was maxed out against the lockbar shoulder (still only about 40% total lock up) and seemed to hold great with no stickiness of any kind etc. How is this supposed to further wear over time?

my recently purchased 95t is like that as well... I'm debating if it's worth the 3 month wait to have it sent over and evaluated. Lockup is good tho on mine as well...

 

[ChazzyP]

What's typical lockup on a 95? Saw one recently that was maxed out against the lockbar shoulder (still only about 40% total lock up) and seemed to hold great with no stickiness of any kind etc. How is this supposed to further wear over time?

The steel should not wear. I’ve been carrying various frame locks for about 7 years now and haven’t had one wear. It’s not a high stress, high wear motion or area.

my recently purchased 95t is like that as well... I'm debating if it's worth the 3 month wait to have it sent over and evaluated. Lockup is good tho on mine as well...

Not to be disparaging, but worrying about wear on a steel-inserted lockbar is, IMHO, much ado about nothing. I agree wholeheartedly with SVTFreak, and have seen no real movement on any of the many quality frame locks I own. My well-worn, old school Hati came to me off the Exchange with the lockbar all but resting against the shoulder and has not moved a lick nor shown even the slightest inclination toward lock-rock through innumerable open/closing cycles.

I posted this pic a few pages back and will put it below as it's germane to the conversation.

If you really want to be without your Turtle for three months, you can send it to me. I'll use it for that long, send it back, and tell you it's fine.

 

[Cold Bananas]

Thanks for the input. The one I saw was a recent new pick-up and the lockbar was maxed out against the lockbar shoulder. I suppose more than anything I may not understand the idea behind the lockbar shoulder. I would think you'd always want the lockbar to travel as far as possible across the tang for a secure lockup. I haven't seen this type of design before.

In other words, if that shoulder wasn't there, how much further would that lockbar go before resting securely against the tang?

 

[ChazzyP]

Thanks for the input. The one I saw was a recent new pick-up and the lockbar was maxed out against the lockbar shoulder. I suppose more than anything I may not understand the idea behind the lockbar shoulder. I would think you'd always want the lockbar to travel as far as possible across the tang for a secure lockup. I haven't seen this type of design before.

In other words, if that shoulder wasn't there, how much further would that lockbar go before resting securely against the tang?

My assumption is that the lockbar on my Hati is resting securely against the tang as the knife exhibits no lock-rock nor any tendency toward disengagement. I also understand that your closing question is explanatory (or rhetorical), but the only way to actually answer that is to grind the shoulder off.

There was some discussion in these pages some time back relative to Shiro lockbars moving further across the tang ramp and being difficult to disengage. My impression, unsubstantiated by measurement or technical input, is that the angle of engagement on Shirogorov lock ramps is somewhat shallower than other knives, allowing greater tension to be placed on the lock surfaces by pushing in, perhaps for added security, and that the shoulder acts as a positive over travel stop. All of my Shiros other than my Hati lock up well short of the shoulder, but most can be pushed to the shoulder deliberately, and, while being more difficult to unlock in that position, do not require more force to do so than can be applied with the usual digit.

 

[SVTFreak]

Shiro’s (and reeves) are tuned by hand in that department. And I’ve never seen any sign of wear. The most movement I’ve ever seen is when it gets reassembled not quite like it was and it may fall in a slightly different place.

Think about this. How many times would you have to move a steel edge on something rough and erosive (like a stone) to remove measurable metal? This is smooth hardened steel on smooth hardened steel, not even rubbing. It’s only touching a small spot. It doesn’t rub, when released it almost instantly is no longer in contact. Contact is required for wear. I’ve never seen the end mushrooming at all, even on the softer metal of the Ti lockbars that don’t have a steel insert like the shiros. Personally, (and this is my opinion from my experience only, I know they are people that would argue with me), I think lock bar wear is a myth. Don’t get sand or silica, lapping compound or stripping compound in there and don’t worry about it. It should last you for ever. If for some reason it does, sell it to me at a discount and I’ll solder in a strip of steel shim and retune it and use it lol.

 

[SVTFreak]

All of my Shiros other than my Hati lock up well short of the shoulder, but most can be pushed to the shoulder deliberately, and, while being more difficult to unlock in that position, do not require more force to do so than can be applied with the usual digit.

Mine can be pushed over also to the shoulder. Sometimes just by gripping harder. Only makes it a touch harder to unlock. Not impossible by any stretch. I think the shiro lock bar shape allows it to flex slightly to allow that to happen. Just a guess though.

 

[marchone]

I'm not an engineer, nor do I own a dozen Shiros.

But I have two, a HatiOn Lite and an F3.

I made the same observations ChazzyP and SVTFreak have.

Both of my knives have steel lock bar inserts. Their lock geometry, despite different scale, is identical. A direct bird's eye view from the bottom of each shows the insert edge to be exactly perpendicular to the main axis along the blade. The blade lock stop itself is ground at a very shallow angle. Perhaps 5 to 10 degrees on each. This could be what SVTFreak referred to as hand fitting, or filing.

I can push the lock bar of the NeOn variant all the way over to the lock bar stop. Normally it sits about 20%. I can only push the F3 about 50%. Normally it sits securely at maybe 5%.

The blade stop only touches the lock bar insert at its corner on each knife. If the lock bar insert is softer than the blade steel it will require enough wear to match the blade stop angle. That could take decades of constant operation.

I've never had an issue with either knife. Period.

No sticking; no failure ... despite deliberate torque applied. You could drive any one of them into a hardwood log and try to twist it. IMO it's not likely to move off the contact area.

 

[rileybassman1]

This is where mine is sitting:

 

[marchone]

That is a radically different configuration than either of mine. I'll snap a pic.

 

[ChazzyP]

This is where mine is sitting:

That sure is all the way over, but if you don't have lock-rock then it's not a problem until it's a problem.

If you have a little side-to-side blade play or if your centering is off you could try tightening your pivot a taste which would bring everything a bit closer together and should make your lockup just a little earlier if that would make you feel more comfortable. You could tighten regardless just to see, if it doesn't adversely affect your action.

I've not worried about my Hati being pretty much on the shoulder after trying to change it, failing to effect any difference, but noting that it functioned just fine anyway. In fact, I just cleaned, interior polished, and re-lubed that knife and the action on its washers and lockup are just superb.

 

[rileybassman1]

That sure is all the way over, but if you don't have lock-rock then it's not a problem until it's a problem.

If you have a little side-to-side blade play or if your centering is off you could try tightening your pivot a taste which would bring everything a bit closer together and should make your lockup just a little earlier if that would make you feel more comfortable. You could tighten regardless just to see, if it doesn't adversely affect your action.

I've not worried about my Hati being pretty much on the shoulder after trying to change it, failing to effect any difference, but noting that it functioned just fine anyway. In fact, I just cleaned, interior polished, and re-lubed that knife and the action on its washers and lockup are just superb.

Ya I've played with the pivot a bit... Kind of a bummer as I have had it less then a week... But I'll probably see if I can get it sent to the mothership... If I am holding it (pressure on lock bar) there is no lock rock, but if I hold the knife at the back, there is some slight lock rock. The lock bar seems pretty loose..

 

[ChazzyP]

Ya I've played with the pivot a bit... Kind of a bummer as I have had it less then a week... But I'll probably see if I can get it sent to the mothership... If I am holding it (pressure on lock bar) there is no lock rock, but if I hold the knife at the back, there is some slight lock rock. The lock bar seems pretty loose..

Oh, then it is a problem, then. Sorry to hear that. If you have the black COA card, then Recon1 will take care of getting it back to the Workshop for you.

 

[rileybassman1]

Oh, then it is a problem, then. Sorry to hear that. If you have the black COA card, then Recon1 will take care of getting it back to the Workshop for you.

Rats. Kinda what I figured... Short honeymoon lol. I do have the black recon 1 card... I bought it here tho... Will not bring the original owner be an issues?

 

[ChazzyP]

It shouldn't be. My understanding is if it came through R1 then they'll take care of it and the card indicates that it did. Ri doesn't actually ship the knives, but hands them to Shiro at the next US knife show to carry back to the Workshop. I don't see why that wouldn't be a warranty issue and Shiro is very good with that and repairs. The only bummer is the time frame, but sometimes it's not that long.

I checked out the sales thread and that's a good asking asking price for that knife which went for over a grand new, so you got a good deal. I have the same SRBS Turtle in M390 and it's a great knife.

 

[rileybassman1]

It shouldn't be. My understanding is if it came through R1 then they'll take care of it and the card indicates that it did. Ri doesn't actually ship the knives, but hands them to Shiro at the next US knife show to carry back to the Workshop. I don't see why that wouldn't be a warranty issue and Shiro is very good with that and repairs. The only bummer is the time frame, but sometimes it's not that long.

I checked out the sales thread and that's a good asking asking price for that knife which went for over a grand new, so you got a good deal. I have the same SRBS Turtle in M390 and it's a great knife.

Thanks for the info - much appreciated!