The Blade Show-A LOT of Overpriced Customs

We are both more likely to improve our skills and knowledge if we maintain a constructive dialog. On balance, I don't think this one is.
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Thanks for the input Jerry. I guess.

Some pretty good ones didn't sell a single knife, like the well-known maker next to me who had two of the most magnificent and finely crafted knives I've ever seen that he took home with him after the show. He'll sell them, probably not to investors, but to those who simply appreciate the art and craft of the knife and are just pleased to have them in their possession.
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Who was the maker? I and others have mentioned about 20 makers in this thread who brought great work to blade. Your turn.

Why are collectors who refuse to lose money investors rather than informed collectors?

When you bought a house, I am sure you considered resale value?
Or car? Or last gun, watch, <insert luxury item here> you bought? Most people (who aren't independently wealthy) do.

I think this thread has been fairly positive overall and prompted some good dialogue.

I'm a pretty fair judge of quality and have a great many friends in the knife community whose tables I visited, and I didn't see the quality issues described in this thread
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Jerry, your knives show you are a good judge of quality, but
I spent about 12 hours looking at practically every makers work in the ABS section and this thread pertains primarily to those kind of knives. How many tables in that section did you visit?

I have received more than a few emails from makers and collectors who noticed some pretty mediocre quality on tables around them, but hey maybe we are all full of crap, need new glasses, and the only reason this thread exists is to ruin the reputation and livelihood of various knifemakers. Yeah right.

This isn't a conspiracy Jerry. I promise.
 
Mr. Garsson,

Were you a gunnery officer in the Navy?

Your skill at instantly finding the range and firing for effect is most impressive.

Best,

P
 
Well, I guess that's what I get for stepping in downwind of a pissing contest... :)

Anthony, I don't wish to post the name of the maker I'm speaking of, but I'll send you a PM with his name; you can decide if his work is well above average. If you believe so or not, please post the fact but not the name here. Thanks.

Long before I made knives, and over 10 years before I made them professionally I was an avid collector. I won a few, lost a few. Uniformly the ones I lost on were from those makers who got out of the business despite making excellent knives. I have a beautiful ivory-handled piece that is engraved by Buster Warenski from a maker who was the Best New Maker at one of the Dallas Guild shows. He left the business, and the knife is virtually worthless today, even though the engraving would probably cost $2000 on any other knife.

I stopped taking orders long ago and cancelled those I had last year on the recommendation of a physician who was helping me deal with some serious issues of burn out and depression. In the rush to criticize, issues such as those and others are often not considered. That's it's been a tough year for many knifemakers, for various and possibly similar reasons, is one of those issues.

I probably spent about 6 hours in the ABS section, and while I'm not a great judge of the forged blade, I saw some impressive work by quite a large number of makers there. I saw some spectacular work by a couple not mentioned above. As I see it, the problem with the generalization concerning poor quality is that unless you are excluded by exception you are included by inferrence.

"It is not pretty, but it is reality. As far as being a loss to the knife community, there is a LONG overdue loss by attrition coming. There a lot of people making knives that should not be(at least "professionally"), and the market is about getting ready to prove that. It will be painful, messy, and full of anguish, but it is also absolutely necessary."

That sounds a lot like the mass extinctions justified by ATT and GM in recent years. No doubt it's true; sadly there are a lot of talented (or soon to be talented) innocents swept up in the fire storm.

As for what happens in industry, I know it pretty well. I was a division VP for two Furtune 500 companies. Bothl were loaded with underperformers who probably should have been fed to that same fire storm but weren't. Certainly if all employees were judged on the basis of their "fit and finish" unemployment would soar.

Slack? Well, slack is what you get when you're reading a forum on here during business hours instead of doing the work you're getting paid for. We all need some slack from time to time.

Sorry I interrupted the flow of positive energy.
 
Jerry - I wasn't at Blade, so I have no opinion on what was on display there. My question to you is: in your opinion, was the average value (quality per $) up, flat, or down?

Thanks,

JD
 
JD, I think it was both. It likely began down, because it has been a rough year and many makers were trying to get the most they could out of the show. At the end value was definitely up as the amount of money at the show was revealed to be way off prior years. Many makers were just scrambling to make expenses.

I'll admit I didn't check prices. My comments above were directed at the quality exhibited.
 
Thanks. I suspect this is where the disconnect is because the main theme of the thread is lower value.
 
Jerry emailed me the name of the maker nearby him that had a dissapointing show. This maker does exquisite work that, in my opinion, has fallen out of favor for a variety of reasons over the past few years. I will not name the maker here, but quality is not this makers issue. Value is not the makers issue. in my opinion he is simply making a product for a rapidly declining segment of the market.

At any rate, this thread was not intended to be a rail on knifemakers.
On the contrary. One reason I collect knives is my incredible respect for the masters of the craft. The ability to take sometimes commonplace raw materials and create a product of lasting beauty, utilty and value--by hand-- is something that eludes me completely.

I am afraid that sometimes these masters make the business LOOK too easy, though. And many new makers come and go because they fail to learn knife history 101, while some old makers go because they fail to learn new trends.

Keep the replies coming. I have seen a lot of famous names viewing this thread and would like some more commentary.
 
The "unmentionable" maker here is Steve Rapp. First let me say that I have known Steve for over 15 years and he has always made exceptional knives. I also "personally" understand what Anthony is talking about.

Steve has put himself into a niche market, not unlike Dan Winkler, Virgil England or Tony Bose. Steve's Bowie won Best Bowie of the 2006 Blade Show. He work on his 19th Century Period pieces is in high demand from those collectors who are heavily into that type of knife. I personally have seen Phil Lobred sitting with Steve looking at what appeared to be blueprints. Steve was going to build Phil's next great project. Steve does superlative work.

When you put yourself into a niche market like that you eliminate a large sector of the collectors who will buy a knife from you. On the other hand you pull in makers who marvel at your work because they have a better appreciation for what it actually took to make that knife.

Because makers build the knife, the artist in them sometimes takes offense to what they may feel are "off-hand" negative comments about their work. Even if there is a gap between the blade and the guard and you comment on it. Most are open to constructive critiscism, this is especially true face to face. Since the Internet can have difficulty realaying "feelings or tones of voice". All of us are a sometimes guilty of mis-reading what the true intentions of the post are.

That is part of the reason no one has ever submitted an "ugly or knife with problems" on this and other forums. All knives, the makers and the people that buy them "Rock". Even Jerry and Anthony will not mention Steve's name as someone somewhere might take offense. Even though the both commented on the quality of his work. To many forumites have seen too many fellow memebers get "Gang Banged" for truthful yet negative comments.

The overall tone of this thread has been positive. No one is taking "cheap shots". Most are expressing their own "Opinion" nothing more and nothing less.

This is one of the better threads that have been posted in years on BF. I take it by the number of views that others feel the same.

WWG
 
We are talking about high dollar, highly finished stock removal knives that are for a very discriminating clientele.

The one for me is going to be a big subhilt thing in the Rod Chappel/Bill Luckett/Schyler Lovestrand kind of style, and I don't expect to make a fortune on it, but I don't expect it to lose big money, as I know a few collectors that already want this knife.

Having not been at Blade, I am assuming that this is not what Steve had. He does quite well at the "right" shows (AKI, Huntington Beach Show) but I don't think that Blade would be a good show for what Steve does.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
My understanding of what has been said on this thread is very different than Jerry's. I don't see this as a negative thread at all. There have been comments about knives that were not well made, but when you have that many makers and that many knives there are going going to be some duds. I would be willing to bet you that there were thousands of knives there that would have impressed me greatly, and many that would have knocked my socks off. My guess would be that the good and great knives outnumbered the bad and awful knives by a huge margin.

The fact that people are stating that they saw some poor workmanship should only be looked upon as a bad thing if you believe that what they are saying is untrue. Now, if you are of the belief that for the good of the custom knife industry people should keep quiet about having seen sloppy work, I personally disagree and do not think that is productive.

For me this thread has been very informative and has done nothing to dampen my enthusiasm for knife collecting. I would very much like to see more input from makers like what was offered by Jerry, so that their perspective can be added to the mix.

As to Jerry's comment about many of us collectors not knowing as much as we think we do, I would say that is an opinion that probably has some merit. However, that doesn't mean that because we aren't as knowledgeable as we think we are that we should just keep our opinions to ourselves. Forums are open to discussion by experts, novices and all those inbetween. That is one of the great ways that places like this help with the learning curve. Next year I will be closer to having the knowledge I think I do than I am now.
 
Hi STeve,

You are spot on. Steve does do very well at the higher end shows. It was the ECCKS show where I saw Steve talking with Phil Lobred.

Too many makers still have not grasped the concept that knife shows are to sell customers what the customers want.....not what the makers want to make.

Customers are becoming more and more sophisticated buyers every day and makers need to recognize this and make adjustments.

STeve, again Im with you in the big sub-hilts. Love Chappel/Luckett/Lovestrand
(a buddy of mine has the Luckett Freedom Fighter Prototype on his web site).

Steve Rapp actually made a few Chappel like knives for a well known dealer about a decade ago.

WWG
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
Good points all around, but I never, ever buy knives from left handed makers! :)
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I have been following this thread since inception, and have learned a great deal. I realize that I will never produce a knife that a serious collector would be interested in (I waited too late in life to get into the game), however, the above statement puzzles me somewhat.

Even though there was a :) at the end of the post, is there a discernable difference in your opinion?

I'm just a curious "Lefty" that happened to catch that.

Great thread loaded with valuable information for young and old alike............ Thank you guys.

Robert
 
Roosko said:
I realize that I will never produce a knife that a serious collector would be interested in (I waited too late in life to get into the game), however, the above statement puzzles me somewhat.

Even though there was a :) at the end of the post, is there a discernable difference in your opinion?

I'm just a curious "Lefty" that happened to catch that.

Robert
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Generally one side of a knife has better grind lines/plunge lines than the other, very, very small difference, but it is dependant on if the maker is a lefty or a righty, and more noticeable if it is a free hand grind. I think that if a maker is doing flat grinds, using a disk sander, it is probably not perceptable, at least in my experience.

To the above quote about a serious collector not being interested in your knives, that is, frankly, poo poo. If I saw your knives at a show, and I liked one, and the price was right, I might buy it. That does not mean that it has to cost $50.00 or have gold pins either, going back to the origin of the thread, it has to offer good value.

A lot of us "serious collectors" are knife users too, just not the real expensive, museum grade stuff, generally. I buy knives to give to people too, to show them what a good handmade knife is, and I don't want to spend a fortune on that either.

If YOU don't think that "serious collectors" will buy your knives, they probably won't, because you are not selling yourself correctly, but if you don't try, you will never know. Good luck.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Lombardo
Good points all around, but I never, ever buy knives from left handed makers!

I have been following this thread since inception, and have learned a great deal. I realize that I will never produce a knife that a serious collector would be interested in (I waited too late in life to get into the game), however, the above statement puzzles me somewhat.
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Lighten up, it was joke, hence the smiley! What I really meant to say was that all leftys should have their arms and hands broken when children and taught do do things properly instead of the slowing the rest of us down when they are adults :)

I could never hit off those left handed pitchers in high school, either! ;)
 
Robert, I'm 65; you're just a kid. Stop making lame excuses. You're knives look fine from what I can see. :)

If the maker is experienced, the difference between right handed and left handed moves around some. I'm not sure there's a quality difference, side to side, but the angle of the plunge tends to favor one or the other. I started with a right handed problem, corrected then over-corrected it, then fixed that and started with a new problem so I really can't tell you now which side, which angle, and where to look. There are several such problems to look for, but darned if I'm gonna tell you where to look on my knives... :D
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Case in point, at the last Blade Show would you have bought a Kit Carson Model 4 from Kit? If you were not involved in the tactical folder market or had not done your research you might pass on this knife.

To those reading this thread who are familiar with the tactical folder market, is a Carson Model 4 purchased from Kit a good investment?
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You know that answer to that one, but I will fill it in for you. Kit charges around $500+/- for his knives, and they can be sold for about double, give or take. They have been readily selling for over $100 of what he charges for the last 10 years. He simply does not keep up with demand, and that is unlikely to change.

WoodWorkGhost said:
How about an Emerson or Onion or Brend? Compare and contrast that to a Mayo, Blackwood, Hossom or Burke. What are the pro's and con's? Who is best to buy and hold? Who are best to buy and flip?
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Emerson=only to the right people
Onion=directly from him, probably THE best buy out there, at CURRENT aftermarket prices, not so much, too inflated
Brend= We differ on our observations on this one, WWG. I would have a hard time selling one, unless it was to you.:D Heck of a fine maker, though, why he chose EMERALD GREEN micarta for his Anniversary knives is beyond me.

WoodWorkGhost said:
You can do this for every category of knives. How about Jess Horn, Ron Lake, Michael Walker and Steve Johnson.
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Horn=again to the right buyer, a good one, but I have been to shows, next to him, where the knives sat for days. His work is state-of-the-art for 1986, and has not changed from there.
Ron Lake=Expensive, no matter how you slice it, and all a variant of the same knife. Money in the bank like a blue chip stock, but how much room for increase?
Michael Walker = Old pieces, are not moving readily, a Zipper blade with a Bladelock is probably one of the finest knives that I have seen, and have seen them realize a 400% increase over cost from maker.
Steve Johnson=Prices are only going up, and for the right piece, it might be the most desired in your collection.

Of the bunch, I say current Walker knives are the must haves, but they are all good.

WoodWorkGhost said:
Compared to Warren Osborne, Joe Kious and WD Pease? Which do you buy, what materials should be used, what model, etc..
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These makers are on a different tier, for lack of a better term, and at the risk of being tarred and feathered, myself, a second tier from the direct above mentioned group.

They are all excellent makers, and IMHO, pearl and stainless steel are the way to go. Why? A little bit of flash, shows off the grinds and keeps the prices down to a more "user friendly level.

WoodWorkGhost said:
How about Tony Bose compared to Eugene Shadley? WHich do you buy and why? What model, what materials, etc.
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Not qualified to say.:)

WoodWorkGhost said:
How about Fisk, Dean, Flounoy and Jimmy Walker? Compared to Fogg, Crowell, Fitch and Cordova?
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Fogg, Fisk and Dean, for me in that order. Fogg is HIGHLY desired, and will be for some time to come. He is not now, nor never will be, a "flavor of the month" Fisk has been commented on before, I leave it to experts more familiar with his work to continue the commentary, and I own a Harvey Dean El Diablo that is about as close to the definition of perfect forged Fighting Bowie as you can get.

WoodWorkGhost said:
How about Farr, John White, Mike Ruth and Russ Andrews? Compared to Tomberlin, Craig Camerer, Reggie Barker and Shawn McIntyre?
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All I can say about this group is, try getting your hands on a Farr or Andrews.:D TOTALLY worth it!

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Anthony,
Amazing thread!
The Collectors,THE Collectors,some of the knifemakers,a wealth of information,interesting points,WOW! :thumbup: :cool:

I would have liked to have gone to Blade.
Agree about Dean,Fuegen,Fisk,Fogg,Bradshaw being superstars,would add Hancock.
Gotta' Email from Bailey today in regards to sharpening the Comp Cutter I got from him,he said he had an OK show,didn't bring enough to maximize the potential but had more time for lengthy discussions with his customers.

Again,thanks for the thread,Steven,Joss,all the rest of the contributors.:thumbup:


Doug:)
 
Agree about Dean,Fuegen,Fisk,Fogg,Bradshaw being superstars,would add Hancock.
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Most, most definately. Not sure he was left out.

Bailey had some nice pieces, but nothing that really stroked my fancy. His sword was awesome, though. My favorite Bradshaw knives are his BIG ones and mostly what he had were itty bitty folders for gentlemen, so I wasn't allowed to buy one :rolleyes: I think Steve Dunn's engraved knives could probably make it into the above list as well as most of Ron Newton's higher end pieces.

I think there is another tier of expert makers who specialize(d) in less embellished, clean knives, and in addition to the makers above, add Massey, Crowell, Fitch, Mike Williams, Jim Walker, JR Cook, Knight, Neely, Potier, B. Foster, Andrews, McIntyre, Cashen, Kilby, Connor, Flournoy and others.

For folders, John Perry, Bailey, Newton are really good.

For Damascus, JD Smith, Tom Ferry, Jerry Rados, Schwarzer,Colter, Kilby, Zowada, Cashen, JM Smith , Filicetti, JW Randall, Ray Rybar, Darrel Meier, Al Pendray, Howard Clark, Jim Schmidt, Dan Maragni, Fogg again, Don Hanson and others have produced some incredible, incredible steel.

I have seen some great forged historical reproductions from Mastersmith Doug Noren of MI. As well as John Perry, Dean, Connor, Hancock, and others.

This list is not final by any means, but is pretty close to my short list of forgers to consider when shopping for knives.
 
Do you feel that all the makers that you just mentioned above offer good VALUE(QPR), or are you simply listing some personal favorite forgers?

I ask, because I a) don't have knowledge of the value/cost from some of these makers and b) some of the makers mentioned are somewhat obscure, and lastly c) having personal knowledge of some of the other makers mentioned, feel that there is better QPR with some than all. Filicietti is blacklisted by many collectors for example, and Jim Schmidt passed away a while ago, and am not sure how the market has responded.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Steven,
thats just my partial "good list"..most of the great values have been listed on the thread already.

Anyone you would like to add to the list?

Who do you feel is obscure?
 
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