The Blade Show-A LOT of Overpriced Customs

knifeart has second of the 'new american' bowies he did. it's a piece i've been seriously considering, but for a couple of different reason i haven't pulled the trigger. i could be wrong, but my guess as to why it hasn't moved it that it doesn't exhibit the more obvious asian stylings of his other recent work (yakuza bowies, chotto-mate, etc).

additionally, this was just intended as an example. one only need look through the for sale section to see some first rate work, from first rate smiths that went for well less than the smith would charge to make something similar.
 
Hi Joss,

Wow you have an MBA too! Congrats.

I hate to throw a monkey in the wrench but there are those who can get 6 Kit Carson Model 4's from Kit.

Travel to the show $500? What if you can drive? What if you are sharing a room with one or more people and you only stay one night. Travel costs are now less than $100.

What if you get the 6 from Kit in the Pit on Thursday night? Now your Friday is open to see whoever you want.

Come on you know from "B" School that you have to look at all scenarios and then determine courses of action for each scenairo and then create contingency plans for each of those scenarios. Sometimes the $$$$ is the easiet part of the formula.

Of course we both know that all of this is moot. Any collector worth a darn has already contacted their favorite makers weeks before the show, received the email photo's or at least descriptions. If it is something they want they have already sent a check or given a CC number to hold the knife.

I realize that you abhore this practice, but "proactive collecting" changes almost all of the betas. Excellent point about travel. What is the effect on the "accounting" variance if the buyer does not travel to a show? Likewise what is the variance if the maker does not have to travel to the show? Costs to the collector go down and profit goes up for the maker. However, the cost of the knife remains the same. Now you have to define "Cost". Obviously in both cases the "Cost(s)" go down but the "Price" stays the same.

My point is that there are "Investment" Grade knives starting at $250. All it takes is a $25 premium and congrats you just made a cool 10%. True it's not the money you can make with a Billion $$$ M & A. None the less it will "beat the street" and kick the snot out of most CD's or Money Market Accounts.

Again, let me reiterate, you have to know when to buy and one to sell. This does not require the focus of a Day Trader. However, some of the same techniques can be utilized.

Sometimes an MBA can be a detrement to the collectibles market. Finanical entities love to "Crunch the Numbers" utilizing formula's that may not be able to take into account current and emerging trends. These formulas rely to a degree (on a sliding scale) on different variables. These forumlas cannot take
into account the "Buzz" of a collectible. As well they will not be able to determine when the "tipping point" occurs and how that will affect the life cyle of a product. Once you figure this out you have missed the opportunity to capitalize fully on the investment potential. You have to be there at the beginning of the life cycle if you wait till the growth portion you missed the opportunity.

You have to be able to identify future great makers before the rest of the custom knife world figures it out. You can't wait till the Buzz starts and other start to look as this will have a negative affect on your ROI.

Joss as you have probably guessed my MBA was geared towards the Marketing track <G>

Using some of your forumlas how would the investment potential of Don Fogg's work be impacted if you stopped your constant praise of his work? You are respected as a knowledgeable collector. If a thread like this started again and you did not chime in with Don's name, the other seasoned collectors would wonder what is going on. Add another variable, you start to sell his work off at or slightly below current value. Questions would arise and no forumla you have could determine the affect your acts would have on the Fogg market.

Collectibe markets differ signficantly from Financial markets due primarily to the human element. Financial institutions try to cover every angle with financial formulas and remove the human element as much as possible. CPAs and MBAs crunch the numbers including reduntant equations specifically included to counter act human bias.

Collectible markets make little or no sense to many who do not understand the collectible. Go back a few years and look at the Beanie Baby Craze. There were people who made hundreds of thousands of dollars on a $4 stuffed animal. Except some of those stuffed animals sold for upwards of $10,000......$10,000!!!!! Today that stuffed animal is worth closer to $1,000 than $10,000. Obviously market timing would have been a skill to possess. How many people held on to bad stocks because the fell in love with them. They ignored market conditions and held onto it too long. The same is true for the work of some makers.

This was the case with the knife Jerry Hossom lamented over. THe knife has $2,000 worth of Warenski engraving (unfortunately it was Buster and not Julie...who knew?) The unknown maker of the knife probably was at the height of his career when Buster engraved the knife. The question is why did a multi-thousand dollar knife become "worthless"? Actually it is not worthless! All Jerry has to do is build up that makers work again and create a demand for the knife. You know....Go "Retro".... Own a "Piece" of History.

What is something worth? What someone will pay for it.

How about the "Pet Rock" for those of us old enough to remember that. Who would have thunk it! The guy made a Million + on that wacky idea.

Custom knife makers as what they think the market will bear. Sometimes the eat the bear and sometimes the bear eats them.

Alot of the collectors who were around in the mid-80's and early 90's learned a very harsh lesson about the high end collectible market. This was especially true of those who were into the Interframe folders. The Japanese (who were prolific buyers of these knives, in particular the ones with thousands of dollars of engraving and gold inlay), their stock market did a nose dive, the economy tanked and their high end collectibles were sold for pennies on the Yen.

Many of those knives made it back to the US. Dealers thought they could recycle them, however, that market had hit the point of diminishing returns and sales stagnated. The custom knife community lost a lot of collectors in the 90's especially when the Tech Stocks seemed so lucrative. We all know how that turned out.

The implosion of the high end folder market let to the birth of the tactical folder market. A previously unheard of phenomenon occured...a custom folder for under $300. From big name makers to! These were later to be called Tactical Folders and they ruled the custom knife world for the next decade.

As the Knifemakers Guild were dealing with their internal struggles, declining membership and a slowly dying show. The ABS stepped up and created its own show in Reno, has a major presence at the Blade Show, as well the Arkansas and SOS Shows. The ABS hunter has become the new "Tacitcal Folder". They are affordable, use top grade materials and the ABS has their school and numerous hammer-in's to help instruct their old and new members knife makers.

What value do you give to this variable in the formula for collectibles.

But wait!!! Is the school turning out too many Smiths? What is the appropriate number per year or do you just keep allowing anyone to attend with the tuition? At what point will the ABS saturate the market with Master Smiths? What are they doing to bring in a complimentary amount of collectors for each new JS and MS. Will lack of collectors actually force the Master Smiths to lower their prices to compete with other MS makers and those up and coming JS makers who are now on Anthony's QPR makers to watch list? Will the "Superstar" price increases allow the "Non-Superstar" MS's to raise their prices. Will the increasing prices the MS's are charging simply take them into the arms of a fortunate few who can afford their knives. Will this in turn end their careers as those fortunate few get their fill of a particular Superstar and move on the next "Superstar". Many variables to be considered indeed. Lastly, will Giraffe Bone finally be banned by the ABS????:D

Lots of questions, lots of variables and lots of research to do.

Joss lots of hints in the thread as to who I am.

Danbo, nice to see you again at the show. You seemd to have one of the better selections of the dealers there without a table. :)
 
Hi Joss,

One more thing. Do you really think collectors who sell their knives actually report a short-term capital gain?

I have always held that if you are going to pay a maker with cash you should get an automatic 10% discount. As how many of these sales are going to be reported as income? Consequently, those makers in even the 28% tax bracket would still make an additional 18% on their money.

See Anthony some of those overpriced knives were even more overpriced than you thought. :D

WWG
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Alot of the collectors who were around in the mid-80's and early 90's learned a very harsh lesson about the high end collectible market. This was especially true of those who were into the Interframe folders. The Japanese (who were prolific buyers of these knives, in particular the ones with thousands of dollars of engraving and gold inlay), their stock market did a nose dive, the economy tanked and their high end collectibles were sold for pennies on the Yen.

Many of those knives made it back to the US. Dealers thought they could recycle them, however, that market had hit the point of diminishing returns and sales stagnated. The custom knife community lost a lot of collectors in the 90's especially when the Tech Stocks seemed so lucrative. We all know how that turned out.

it wasn't just knives either
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
There were 2 Kemal knives at Blade show, does that count?
It depends, but what's your point? I'm saying you can only get those at a show and not on the internet, etc, and you tell me there were 2 at a show??? :confused: :confused:

You make a lot of assumptions Joss, for example when you talk about the cost of the show, you assume that the "dealer" was only at the show to buy Carsons, not buy others knives or sell other knives, maybe other Carsons. It is important for a dealer to have not one, but 10 Carsons!
I am not talking about dealers, I'm talking about individuals. For dealers, this is a full time job. And even a dealer would have huge difficulties getting 10 Carsons.

Guess what? My income-generating career doesn't help me pick good knives.
I made no such claim.

Again, there are no secrets to the art or business of knife collecting(take your pick). Buy the best knives from the best makers at the best prices and you wil see your collecton increase in value.
There are three different levels of difficulty:
1 - Develop a nice collection (collector)
2 - Develop a collection with investment potential (investor)
3 - Buy and sell knives to generate day to day income and to prepare your retirement (dealer)

Those have very different requirements in terms of controls, execution, and time commitment.
 
I have just become interested in the custom knife arena in the past year. I have hunted and fished all over this continent. Usually with a knife aboard, but I was always more concerned about my rifles, shotguns, hunting dogs and fishing gear, and as long as the accompanying knife 'got the job done', it didn't matter much to me what name it had stamped on it.
Plus, I have always been somewhat involved in the stock market, without enough of my own knowledge (lazy, lack of interest in the research) to do that well, but diversified enough to make it worth my while.
This thread has been very enlightening to me, and I haven't been around the block enough to intervene. But, I have learned a lot...especially since I am back from my first Blade Show. Due to my schedule and the drive, I was only there Friday PM and Saturday AM, but I had a blast. I'll schedule more time for the show next year.
My question, being the rookie that I am (I notice on the 'Your first custom knife..' thread that a lot of you have be doing this for a few decades), is to know how the J.S. and M.S. certificate numbers have increased the last five or so years? WWG questions the number of smiths being turned out. I have no idea, but was 16 J.S.'s and 4 M.S.'s an above average number this year?
As an investor who had plenty of World Com stock, losing a few bucks here and there on a knife purchase won't bother me too much for awhile. :) The custom knife 'hobby' has been fun to date.
Thanks for all of the insight contained in this thread.
 
Not being completely accurate on the total numbers, this is about what I think there are.
Total ABS members world wide is abut 1600
Total members who ever made it to the master smith level is about 120
I don't know how many journey man smiths there are total.
With the time and performance requirements of the different levels, that means that the membership has remained fairly stable. If you drop your membership, you have to start over. The percentage that has been passing is usually high because a lot of them have their knives critiqued many times before submission to the panal of judges. It is definitely a stressful journey and one that is becoming a bit harder each year.
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
I hate to throw a monkey in the wrench but there are those who can get 6 Kit Carson Model 4's from Kit.
So what? If your "knives can be an investment" argument pivots on the proposition that you need to get 6 Carsons at $500 a pop, then it is something that only applies to a tiny, tiny number of people, most of them are either dealers or have done business with Kit for so long that they're basically family. In short, it may be a strategy for half a dozen people in the US, but not for me, Anthony, Steven, and most people here. So what's your point?

Travel to the show $500? What if you can drive? What if you are sharing a room with one or more people and you only stay one night. Travel costs are now less than $100.
What if, what if, what if... Again, you're taking a general proposition and applying to a very small number of people. Neither Steven nor I could go to Blade for $100 (I don't know where Anthony lives), not to mention people living outside the US.

What if you get the 6 from Kit in the Pit on Thursday night? Now your Friday is open to see whoever you want.
Sure - Kit is likely to agree to that. Steven, Anthony, and Myself we'll all go to him and get 6 of his M4 at $500 a pop. No problem.

Come on you know from "B" School that you have to look at all scenarios and then determine courses of action for each scenairo and then create contingency plans for each of those scenarios. Sometimes the $$$$ is the easiet part of the formula.
Whatever...

Of course we both know that all of this is moot. Any collector worth a darn has already contacted their favorite makers weeks before the show, received the email photo's or at least descriptions. If it is something they want they have already sent a check or given a CC number to hold the knife.
Really? You mean, I can call Kit now and reserve all his production for the next Blade? Geee.... I wonder why I, Steven, Anthony, and hundreds other collectors haven't thought of that.... Maybe because it's a crazy idea?

I realize that you abhore this practice, but "proactive collecting" changes almost all of the betas. Excellent point about travel. What is the effect on the "accounting" variance if the buyer does not travel to a show? Likewise what is the variance if the maker does not have to travel to the show? Costs to the collector go down and profit goes up for the maker. However, the cost of the knife remains the same. Now you have to define "Cost". Obviously in both cases the "Cost(s)" go down but the "Price" stays the same.
You're again talking about closed door deals that are only available to a handful of people, most of them dealers. It just doesn't pertain to most of us here. If you have a Carson M4 for sale at $500, I'll take it thanks.

My point is that there are "Investment" Grade knives starting at $250. All it takes is a $25 premium and congrats you just made a cool 10%.
Yes, and I can walk down the street and find a quarter and I've made a gazillion % profit. A $25 return isn't an investment - it's not scalable, it's not going to pay for your retirement, unless you do that 100 or 200 times a month - in which case it becomes a full time job.

Using some of your forumlas how would the investment potential of Don Fogg's work be impacted if you stopped your constant praise of his work? You are respected as a knowledgeable collector.
Even with me praising his work, Don Fogg is a not an investment. He's a great artist, and I love his work to death, and I respect and like him, but as an investment, I don't even include the stuff I own in my portfolio. Sure, I've made some tidy profits here and there, but it was so much work finding the knife, that it was not worth it (it beats the hell out of loosing money on a knife though). The only knives where I could make really material profits are those I acquired a long time ago, or those where I got a special opportunity - something no offered to most other people due to a relationship that took me years to develop. Even then, most of his work I'd like to buy goes to other buyers... :(

If I counted on my knowledge of Don Fogg's work to pay for my retirement, I'd be bagging groceries well into my 80's.

Your other points are all very valid but doesn't support the argument that knives are a good investment. They do support the argument that timing the market (a difficult skill to acquire in the best situation) is important. In other world, the market for craze XYZ could crash overnight and unless one has been incredibly lucky, one will end up selling their collection for pennies on the dollar. Not much of an investment as far as I'm concerned.

Joss lots of hints in the thread as to who I am.
OK, I understand.
 
Your other points are all very valid but doesn't support the argument that knives are a good investment.

Knives aren't generally a good investment, but if you buy the right ones they will increase in value better than many typical, low-yield investments.

They are one of the few things (outside of investments, 401k) I own outside my home and some select guns and maybe my wife's diamond that I can say that about.
 
Investment, is and has proved itself to be a VERY subjective term in this thread alone.

For Joss, maybe, investment means retirement money. For me and Anthony maybe, investment means profit realized on initial captial expenditure.

You can invest in wine, but you don't get to drink and enjoy it, because you are trying to sell it for a profit. That doesn't seem like much fun, and if sheer financial gain is your motive, I for one am with Joss that illegal:) ventures are far more profitable, but the downside is not just lost money, it is jail time, and fines, which does not make this an appealing idea.

Remember, with knives, ideally, you get to enjoy the ownership for a while, and flip it for a profit.

What could be better than that for an investor/collector?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
You know, I just looked up some financial b-boards and asked specifically that question. I was given a pretty good definition:

William Bernstein said: "The Discounted Dividend Model, by the way, is the ultimate answer to the age-old question of how to separate speculation from investment. The acquisition of a rare coin or fine painting for purely financial purposes is clearly a speculation: these assets produce no income, and your return is dependent on someone else paying yet a higher price for them later....
(...)
Only an income-producing possession, such as a stock, bond, or working piece of real estate is a true investment. The skeptic will point out that many stocks do not have current earnings or produce dividends. True enough, but any stock price above zero reflects the fact that at least some investors consider it possible that the stock will regain its earnings and produce dividends in the future, even if only from the sale of its assets. And, as Ben Graham pointed out decades ago, a stock purchased with the hope that its price will soon rise independent of its dividend-producing ability is also a speculation, not an investment."

This fails to take into account the scalability issue, but I'm fine with that.

Based on this definition, the only thing that matters is whether the asset you buy is productive, or whether it's value is only based on the hope that someone will pay more for it in the future.

There's a grey area for companies that are in the business of buying and selling art & craft, but I think most would agree that succesful dealers don't merely buy and sell. They also spend material amount of time and money marketing and promoting the maker, educating potential buyers, and buy raising their profile increase the value of their own inventory.
 
Okay, so aside from the continuing saga over whether knives are an investment or not...

I just recently ordered a small forged damascus knife from Audra Draper, and I'd be interested in Mr. Lombardo's opinion of her work. I think I'm going to really like it, and I was honestly surprised at the price (which seemed more than reasonable for a knife by someone with a MS rating). Just thought I'd ask! Thanks!
 
small forged damascus knife from Audra Draper, and I'd be interested in Mr. Lombardo's opinion of her work

FYI, Her style, the whole "Wyoming" style of knife, is not my style.

I do not subscribe to the tenets of the "school of the magical ball bearing" either, so you can take that for what its worth.

The first time I met Audra she was at her first Blade show and just tagging along for the ride with a few very crude knives and a lot of enthusiasm. Now she is a successful, full-time knifemaker along with her husband and I wish them well.

Based on their table at Blade, it seems folders are their hot commodity these days.

Her knives, like a lot of other 'smiths are more rustic in nature than what I prefer. They will never be mistook with the work of Tim Hancock or Harvey Dean or many of the smiths previously mentioned.

I am sure you will enjoy the knife. Please let us know your detailed impressions when your recieve it along with photos.
 
Thanks for the info and the honest impression! Yeah, they're not everyone's cup of tea. For what its worth, I don't find Bowie knives all that keen. I have enjoyed looking at a lot of the knives/makers mentioned as being very good in this thread though!! I'll be sure to give you a detailed impression of what I think when I get it.
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
Knives aren't generally a good investment, but if you buy the right ones they will increase in value better than many typical, low-yield investments.

They are one of the few things (outside of investments, 401k) I own outside my home and some select guns and maybe my wife's diamond that I can say that about.
Are you serious? Not a good investment? What the heck are you collecting. Knives have been a strong over the top bull market for years, and show no sign of letting up. Your opening statement on this thread proves that in its self. Your main gripe was that everything was going way up to the point you don't like it. Isn't that what you want knives like the ones you already owner doing. Seems to me, one of us is missing something. all I can tell you is that before I even got to a table at blade I was sold out. Within 10 minutes I was sold out. I was told over and over again by collectors, and fellow knife makers, that the Lovett knives were far too low in cost. and that is with a Jr Bear in Green Micarta selling at 1250.00. Centefante, and WD
Pease themselves valued the Jr's at 2500.00 to 3000.00. Way to much for my taste. I dont have the balls to go up that much. The point is most of what I sold has already been sold again for a substantial profit. OOp's on my part, Yea! On theirs. Mike Lovett http://www.lovettknives.com/
 
Are you serious?

Are you?

I am glad for you that duplicating Loveless patterns hs pulled you out of knifemaking obscurity.

I don't collect hollow ground, stainless steel knives, so the diatribe you just semi-coherently posted is really meaningless to me.

Maybe thats the secret to huge dividends in the custom knife business, to buy Lovett knives!

Sounds like an advertisement to me.

Good thing your name sounds like Loveless too! Or did you change it from something else to improve your market?

It is pretty clear you failed to read the entire thread. Oh well!
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
Are you?

I am glad for you that duplicating Loveless patterns hs pulled you out of knifemaking obscurity.

I don't collect hollow ground, stainless steel knives, so the diatribe you just semi-coherently posted is really meaningless to me.

Maybe thats the secret to huge dividends in the custom knife business, to buy Lovett knives!

Sounds like an advertisement to me.

Good thing your name sounds like Loveless too! Or did you change it from something else to improve your market?It is pretty clear you failed to read the entire thread. Oh well!

1. Mike's name is his name.

2. Mike has a certain "bent" towards posting, and it is "raw", but it works for him.

3. Mike makes a great knives in the Loveless vein, and if you don't do that style it is a choice you make. His work ROCKS, it is in the primary collection, and is not for sale!:D

4. Mike underprices himeself at this point, and has EXCELLENT QPR, but that is subjective, and I accept it as such. R.W. Loveless feels that Mike is a torch carrier for the next generation, who am I to argue with the brilliance that is R.W.?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Mike makes a hell a fine knife. I am a collector of forged knives, but I am seriously considering adding one of his knives to my collection. He has also taken the time to give me advice and answer questions that he really didn't have to. Though he was definitely blowing his own horn, I believe he is correct in stating that his knives are a good investment.
 
Hey Mike, great to see you here! I'd certainly like one of his knives. The fighters are great, and the City Knife is probably one of the most innocent looking knives I've ever seen. Just fantastic work.

I should also add that I'm a big fan of classic "western-style" knives- though I don't really like bowies. I need one for the future, so I'm looking around, but I prefer "hunter" patterns as they're easier for me to work with and carry.
 
Back
Top