The Blade Show-A LOT of Overpriced Customs

WWG,
The credit card companies charge your account a 3% to 5% fee. Depends on you average ticket sales. I no longer accept CC but do paypal. A little cheaper and a lot faster and secure, at least it is for me. Restocking is another matter.
Ray Kirk
 
Buster Warenski
Fred Carter
Steve Hoel
Charlie Weis
Willie Rigney
Billy Imel (althought I did see him for the first time in years at the Blade Show)
Herman Schneider
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These are all art knifemakers,ghost, that specialized in multi-thousand dollar pieces.

Should a wise collector limit his investment per knife so his resale would appear to a larger number of collectors?

or

Should a collector just focus on quality makers, buy their work on the way up, and hope that quality prevails in the end?



I went to blade west about 6 years ago and saw an incredible collection of knives from the 1970's and early 80's. Some of these knives were by incredible makers, even a few that you have mentioned, and they were literally a treasure trove of knife history. the owner was a kindly old gentleman and let me handle probably 20 pieces and get behind the table and chat about some of the old time makers.

Over the course of an hour, hundreds of people walked by and almost no-one even looked in the cases, or even asked what the collector had for sale or trade. The shoppers had no idea what they were looking at, had never heard of the makers and had no desire or time to learn. In contrast, some of the nearby hot custom makers who couldn't hope to ever build a knife like the old school makers, were bursting with traffic and sales.

The collector bought top quality pieces, from tip top makers, but 20 years ago stopped upgrading his collection, while his older pieces still had value.
It was an incredible collection that no one wanted.
 
I am glad that I didn't know that, I never had to cancel a sale. :)
I did know that you could cancel, just never had the need.
Seems like it would be worth a little bit to have the knife sent out and a few more people touch it. Good business practices are hard to beat, it is really cheaper in the long run.
 
Hi Anthony,

You're right they were art type makers. I listed them to go along with Tim Hancock and other high end makers getting thousands of dollars for their knives.

A collection is different from an investment portfolio.

There are an incredible amount of $10,000 collections out there, that if they had to be liquidated in 30 days would return 10 - 20 cents on the dollar.

These were pieces bought by collectors not investors.

Investors don't "hope". They set their own standards based on their research that will act as "triggers" as to when to sell parts of their portfolio. You cannot wait for custom knife makers to make the right moves. Most because of their lack of business skills and/or their lack of interest to incorporate them .

Joss sings the praises of Don Fogg at every turn. Don is doing little to introduce himself to the next generation of collectors. While Jerry Fisk, Larry Feugen, Tim Hancock, Ron Newton and other top Mastersmiths are at both Reno and The Blade Show, Don is noticeably absent. He lives in Alabama and the last time I checked a map that is the next state west of Georgia. Point is that it is deffinetly within drving distance of the Blade Show. Unless he is physically unable he should be at one or both shows. If nothing else to stand behind the table and talk with collectors. Discuss his new work, new projects , etc. If you go to his web site his last update for his show schedule is 2004 (Note this is halfway through 2006).

So he is not keeping his site updated, does little if any advertising and does not attend major ABS type shows. His work in the aftermarket is primarily carried by Knife Art, who has been discussed at length.

Don is an incredible blade smith. He has knowledge that all but the most gifted master smiths could learn from. Yet other than his web site and few rabid collectors of his work there is little mention of him nor is there much of his work at shows for others to view.

If he is not careful he will slip into obscurity and then what will Joss's collection be worth??

At this point how many people know what Kemal was?

Custom knives can be investments. I have knives in my collection worth thousands of dollars that I have no money in. I bought four or five knives from a paticular maker. Sold 4 off at opportune times making enough money on the 4 to cover the cost of all 5. Consequently, I could give the 5th knife away and still have made money on it.

Imagine having a collection valued at over $50,000 and having less than $5,000 invested in it. Now that is a collection that is also an investment portfolio. Even if I had to liquidate quickly and only received 20cents on the dollar, I would have still doubled my money.

To do this takes knowledge and discipline. You have to know what you are looking for and have the discipline to not buy if it is too much money and conversly buy if the price is right (even if you have to sell another piece to appropriate the funds).

Anthony your observations about high quality knives and the makers who built them 20 years ago is right on targert. But who's fault is it that new collectors don't know who these makers are? The answer is the MAKER?

People always want the lastest and greatest and that which they cannot have. Too many makers don't get it. To be successful long term you have to make what the customers want. Forget what other makers say, they don't buy knives. They are competitors not customers.

Too many collectors are passive in their knife buying. They read an article or get some info on the internet and buy the knife.

I was at a seminar at the Blade Show on buying custom knives. One of the speakers asked the audience "What is the first thing you do when you see a knife on a dealers web site that you are interested in?" People turned and looked at each other. After a minute passed with no answer the speaker said "You call the maker to see what they charge for the knife." Everyone nodded in agreement as that answer made perfect sense.

He then asked "What is the first thing you do when you go to a makers website and you see a knife that you like, but there is no price?" Again a minute or so of soul searching and no answer. The speaker again spoke up "you delete that makers website from your computer. The knife isn't priced because either he doesn't know what to charge, he wants the ability to quote a different price each time (Which does nothing to help establish a pricing structure for the investor), he is to lazy to put a price or he lacks sufficent business knowledge to do so. Any of these are reasons for you not to buy a knife from this maker.

A Seller should never put up additional obstacles to keep the potential buyer from purchasing the product.

As the custom knife market becomes more and more competitive. It is those makers who will eliminate as many obstacles to the sale as possible that will thrive and survive. Makers have to market themselves to the knife buying public. Meerly waiting for the clients to find you is not only wasting time it is, well, stupid.

Makers need to keep their websites up to date. Travel to at least 1 show a year. Develop a "marketing" team. THis includes, but is not limited to, a dealer network, a professional photographer, professional ad developers, work with the magazines to be included in as many different issues as possibe and a good CPA. You can add others as necessary.

As collectors become more sophisticated they will start giving their purchases at least a cursery glance with their investors "eye".

WWG
 
Hi Raker,

Now the thread wasn't a waste you learned something. :D

Whatever the bank charges on a credit sale is returned if the company issues a credit to its customer. This action usually takes less than 1 minute to accomplish. So to charge your customers for this is just a rip-off. Same as the restocking fee.:jerkit:

WWG
 
As one of the newer ABS MS’s (2004), here’s my take on a lot of this pricing situation:

First, true to Anthony’s original thread starter regarding forged ABS knives, the cost of materials has nothing to do with the retail price jump. Most of the knives Anthony had in mind are made from carbon steel and wood. A $1500 bowie is lucky to have $100 in materials including belts, propane, files, sandpaper, steel, wood, leather…..you get the idea. A 30% increase in price has nothing to do with steel going from $3 a pound to $6.

What I see is that the first tier makers are skillfully raising their prices because they can. (Let’s be honest here for a second. First tier does not now or will it ever necessarily be the top of the “perfection” pile. Those guys are smart makers who make a good knife and have decided to find a way to not stay poor in the process of doing what they loved and they got creative. Good for them!) The second tier guys are doing the same to fill in the void, and so on and so on. At my second show 4 or 5 years ago, a collector told me I was nuts to ask $325 for a nice hunter when Jerry Fisk was getting $450. That Fisk hunter is now over $1000, and the new makers are asking $400 and getting it. In the process, a lot of good, established smiths, but without Jerry’s business acumen have positioned themselves in that gap with $500-$600 forged hunters.

Now, in most cases, the guys in the middle have not doubled their quality any more than the guys at the top, they are just riding the wave. The question is what would happen if the guys leading the price push had a drop in demand. Have the makers that followed created a value for themselves at their price, or have they simply taken advantage of the tide?

Is the buying public ready to support the knives at the current price jump, or will the market “correct”? I think that the demand is there, and frankly, I still think that knifemakers as a group get less than they should for what they do. However, most makers have not done their part in adding to the knowledgeable collector pool with new blood. New guys are fighting for the finite supply of disposable income from the same crowd, and with all the new makers out there, it will make times very tight for some guys who are beginning to run that well dry.
 
Actually,
I have learned a lot and have come to grips with some of my short coming. I always knew there were some but did not know the extent or what some of them are. The "collectors" market is a good thing, I guess, as it helps a lot of the makers that are full time and need the income to cover all the items discussed in keeping yourself in the publics eye.
I never knew that there was as much to look at when judging a knife till I had all the MS people look at mine. A defect as noted, was fixed and presented again. 2 years of this enables you to understand a lot about what people are looking for. The decision comes as to what you really want to produce. I love making using knives of most kinds. I also enjoy making an occasional piece that challenges my skills. I guess you could say that I would like a "lot" of people to have my knives and use them. I also understand that a custom or hand made knife may become a family treasure and if it is used up, it will be gone. That comes with some people placing more value on you knives than you do so they don't use them.
I really would like to thank all the people for sharing their thoughts on this thread. I know we all have room for improvement in most of our activities and this has been good to bring a lot of them out without flaming any one.
Ray Kirk
 
Anthony your observations about high quality knives and the makers who built them 20 years ago is right on targert. But who's fault is it that new collectors don't know who these makers are? The answer is the MAKER?

People always want the lastest and greatest and that which they cannot have. Too many makers don't get it. To be successful long term you have to make what the customers want. Forget what other makers say, they don't buy knives. They are competitors not customers.
Click to expand...

These are great points. lets take Loveless for example. few people today know how long and hard he worked for recognition. He sold his first knife in 1954, but didn't make it full-time until 1969. In 1973 he was 75 knives behind and was getting popular after almost 20 years of part and full-time making. Once he entered full time making, he never stopped cultivating new business whether it was factory collaborations (Loveless was the first custom maker to have a factory collaboration (Schrade hunter) after that failed he began designing knives for Gerber (Guardian series and Lovless interframe folder). He trained many makers how to make Loveless knives.
Aida, Kuzan Oda, Kressler, Steve Johnson, Merritt, Lovett and many, many others. These makers in turn perpetuated his sexy designs and helped establish them all over the globe.

It was a slow and painful path to becoming a legend and required countless trips to shows all over the world. Not just Atlanta, once a year.
 
Now, in most cases, the guys in the middle have not doubled their quality any more than the guys at the top, they are just riding the wave. The question is what would happen if the guys leading the price push had a drop in demand. Have the makers that followed created a value for themselves at their price, or have they simply taken advantage of the tide?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the insight Burt. I think you are hitting a bullseye here.
 
this has been an intersting thread

as i have posted before on this forum...i feel collectibles...and that most certainly includes custom knives.... are generally a poor investment with a real rate of return much lower than other more traditional investments like stocks. actual studies have shown this as well...see burton and jacobson article from J. of Economic Perspectives 1999.

this does not mean that people do not make money from selling individual knives...they can. however, this is the exception rather than the rule

two things that most advocates of collectibles minimize are risk and liquidity. all investments entail some degree of risk, but this is magnified in the collectible arena where the value of any any item is at its core simply what another individual is willing to pay for it. this is unlike a share of GE or boeing that are cash producing and have a "break up" value. collectibles are very subject to the whims of individual preference and represent one of the highest risk investments you can make. i would certainly expect much more than a potential 10 or 20% return on such a high risk investment before i "invested" in it. just for reference many venture capital firms will not invest a new venture unless they have the potential to realize a 50% or greater return

there are advocates of "collectible investing" in many areas, not just custom knives. be careful of those who promise guaranteed returns. the ratio of snake oil salesmen to successes is fairly high. there is a chance of success as long as you really know the market and your own limitations (what warren buffett calls the circle of competence)

liquidity is also a major concern. as was just pointed out, it can be very difficult to liquidate even a small $10,000 investment quickly with any hope of achieving even a fraction of the "percieved" value. there are simply very few buyers for collectibles compared to other investments
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
Joss sings the praises of Don Fogg at every turn. Don is doing little to introduce himself to the next generation of collectors. While Jerry Fisk, Larry Feugen, Tim Hancock, Ron Newton and other top Mastersmiths are at both Reno and The Blade Show, Don is noticeably absent. He lives in Alabama and the last time I checked a map that is the next state west of Georgia. Point is that it is deffinetly within drving distance of the Blade Show. Unless he is physically unable he should be at one or both shows. If nothing else to stand behind the table and talk with collectors. Discuss his new work, new projects , etc. If you go to his web site his last update for his show schedule is 2004 (Note this is halfway through 2006).
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Just to be fair, Don was at Reno the first 2 years. He didn't go this year, but sometimes circumstances get in the way. I agree that at this point, Don's work is more taking the direction of Buster Warenski's and Fred Carter's than Bill Moran's.

Arguably, the only maker doing as much as Loveless and Moran to promote their legacy / protect their collectors for the long term is Fisk, and one step behind are SR Johnson and Ron Newton and probably a few others.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodWorkGhost
Joss sings the praises of Don Fogg at every turn. Don is doing little to introduce himself to the next generation of collectors. While Jerry Fisk, Larry Feugen, Tim Hancock, Ron Newton and other top Mastersmiths are at both Reno and The Blade Show, Don is noticeably absent. He lives in Alabama and the last time I checked a map that is the next state west of Georgia. Point is that it is deffinetly within drving distance of the Blade Show. Unless he is physically unable he should be at one or both shows. If nothing else to stand behind the table and talk with collectors. Discuss his new work, new projects , etc. If you go to his web site his last update for his show schedule is 2004 (Note this is halfway through 2006).
Click to expand...
Hey WWG--- You have no right to tell Don what Don should do. Why don't you try to learn all of the facts of his situation before you open your trap? What would you say to those who say that you do not know what Don has been through because you can not make any money off of him? YOU OWE HIM AN APOLOGY--PUBLICY

All the best---Dirty
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodWorkGhost
Joss sings the praises of Don Fogg at every turn. Don is doing little to introduce himself to the next generation of collectors. While Jerry Fisk, Larry Feugen, Tim Hancock, Ron Newton and other top Mastersmiths are at both Reno and The Blade Show, Don is noticeably absent. He lives in Alabama and the last time I checked a map that is the next state west of Georgia. Point is that it is deffinetly within drving distance of the Blade Show. Unless he is physically unable he should be at one or both shows. If nothing else to stand behind the table and talk with collectors. Discuss his new work, new projects , etc. If you go to his web site his last update for his show schedule is 2004 (Note this is halfway through 2006).

maybe some makers just don't like the limelight...i've never met Donn Fogg but i know all his knives and swords speak to me and are quite often one of my desireables. :)

great thread...i'm learning a lot of stuff regarding collecting ABS knives.
 
Anthony Lombardo said:
These are great points. lets take Loveless for example. few people today know how long and hard he worked for recognition. He sold his first knife in 1954, but didn't make it full-time until 1969. In 1973 he was 75 knives behind and was getting popular after almost 20 years of part and full-time making. Once he entered full time making, he never stopped cultivating new business whether it was factory collaborations (Loveless was the first custom maker to have a factory collaboration (Schrade hunter) after that failed he began designing knives for Gerber (Guardian series and Lovless interframe folder). He trained many makers how to make Loveless knives.
Aida, Kuzan Oda, Kressler, Steve Johnson, Merritt, Lovett and many, many others. These makers in turn perpetuated his sexy designs and helped establish them all over the globe.

It was a slow and painful path to becoming a legend and required countless trips to shows all over the world. Not just Atlanta, once a year.
Click to expand...
Bob Loveless worked very hard to get to where he is. Two other notable makers that he taught were Wayne Clay, and Joe Cordova. Bob was the first to be recognized for doing a factory collaboration, but not the first. Schrade struck a deal with L.C. Finger, and produced the Sharp finger, and the Little finger hunters. L.C. never got credit, which goes Even further to show just how tough it can be out there. I Once made the mistake of of showing Lynn Thompson a tanto blade with a loveless style handle on it, at a show show I was attending, along with Ted Nugent. Thompson said that it would never sell. Just a few months later Cold Steel came out with the Recon Tanto. It has done very well in the market. I know just how L.C. must have felt. Mike
 
a couple of my thoughts -

- regarding a maker 'protecting' his collectors by ensuring his legacy, going to a show isn't the only way to be active in the community.

Don Fogg does a lot for the community with his bladesmith's forum, it's a fabulous wealth of information. very few makers have anywhere near the ammount of useful content available that he has. will the impact he has on new smiths via that forum go any length to influcing smiths & collectors to come?

i don't know. i do know that very few people are doing work that speaks to me on the level that Don's work does.

- a trade-up/trade-in policy for a dealer is definitely a nice to have. besides art, i know of no other 'investment' that allows you to sell it back to the dealer/broker if the investment ends up going down instead of up. it'd be nice if ameritrade would guarantee all the stocks i buy, but i can't imagine how hard they'd laugh if i asked.

my assumption here is that dealers offering the guarantee make sure they are buying only the knives that they think are going to go up, or at least hold their value (which is actually a loss taking inflation & opportunity cost into account). that said, unless the dealer is psychic, they'll get a few wrong. they'll lose some money, on knives that do go down and knife makers they didn't carry because they didn't think they'd go up. i just read on one dealers site that their trade-up offer doesn't apply to one particular maker's knives. my guess is that they don't believe those knives will hold value, but there may be other factors at play i'm not aware of.

in short, are dealers offering a trade-in/trade-up guarantee limiting themselves and potentially missing out on important makers, because they only want to stock a 'sure thing'?

- i'm not sure that having a "marketing team" should necessarily mean having a dealer network. i appreciate a dealers place in the business, and it's a good way for collectors to get access to pieces they may not otherwise be able to. however, if a knife maker is successful at selling all they knives they want/need to without a dealer... i'm not sure i see the value of adding a middleman. additionally, selling through a dealer network is no guarantee of recognition or sales - no matter how nice the work, nor how reasonably priced.

in regards to having a professional photographer, sure that's nice. i've paid Coop on occasion myself for photos, he does fabulous work, i don't. that said, there are several makers who are able to take perfectly good photos on their own. Coops quality? No. But still perfectly servicable for most pieces. I'd agree that when developing a website, makers should use their best pieces and have them professionally photographed for the gallery. But I certainly don't think it's necessary for every piece.

all the services WWG mentioned cost money. this is money out of the maker's pocket that will translate into higher prices. i know what my CPA charges me, and i wouldn't wish that on anyone. as soon as i'm able to do without the service i will.
 
FYI WoodWorkGhost, Herman Schneider went to shows on a regular basis until recent personal events prevented it. I have a De Santis "Thumb-Dimple" Fighter of his that won Best Fighter at Blade Show West in 2004. While I wouldn't expect to see him at too many more shows, he's not given up on shows from what I can see.

Anyway, he must have had a good reason for retiring from the AKI. If you can stay busy with orders generated by word of mouth, why not take orders that way? The collectors that are interested will find you.

As far as collections go, I have a collection that I would estimate to be worth quite a bit, but I have not invested that much in it. Just have to be in the right place at the right time and you can make some very good purchases.
 
mlovett said:
Bob Loveless worked very hard to get to where he is. Two other notable makers that he taught were Wayne Clay, and Joe Cordova. Bob was the first to be recognized for doing a factory collaboration, but not the first. Schrade struck a deal with L.C. Finger, and produced the Sharp finger, and the Little finger hunters. L.C. never got credit, which goes Even further to show just how tough it can be out there. I Once made the mistake of of showing Lynn Thompson a tanto blade with a loveless style handle on it, at a show show I was attending, along with Ted Nugent. Thompson said that it would never sell. Just a few months later Cold Steel came out with the Recon Tanto. It has done very well in the market. I know just how L.C. must have felt. Mike
Click to expand...
There are some real rotten characters in the knife world, and Lynn Thompson is one of the worst! I'm sorry you got ripped off.

Sometimes it doesn't pay to show off work.
 
Burt Foster said:
As one of the newer ABS MS’s (2004), here’s my take on a lot of this pricing situation:

First, true to Anthony’s original thread starter regarding forged ABS knives, the cost of materials has nothing to do with the retail price jump. Most of the knives Anthony had in mind are made from carbon steel and wood. A $1500 bowie is lucky to have $100 in materials including belts, propane, files, sandpaper, steel, wood, leather…..you get the idea. A 30% increase in price has nothing to do with steel going from $3 a pound to $6.

What I see is that the first tier makers are skillfully raising their prices because they can. (Let’s be honest here for a second. First tier does not now or will it ever necessarily be the top of the “perfection” pile. Those guys are smart makers who make a good knife and have decided to find a way to not stay poor in the process of doing what they loved and they got creative. Good for them!) The second tier guys are doing the same to fill in the void, and so on and so on. At my second show 4 or 5 years ago, a collector told me I was nuts to ask $325 for a nice hunter when Jerry Fisk was getting $450. That Fisk hunter is now over $1000, and the new makers are asking $400 and getting it. In the process, a lot of good, established smiths, but without Jerry’s business acumen have positioned themselves in that gap with $500-$600 forged hunters.

Now, in most cases, the guys in the middle have not doubled their quality any more than the guys at the top, they are just riding the wave. The question is what would happen if the guys leading the price push had a drop in demand. Have the makers that followed created a value for themselves at their price, or have they simply taken advantage of the tide?

Is the buying public ready to support the knives at the current price jump, or will the market “correct”? I think that the demand is there, and frankly, I still think that knifemakers as a group get less than they should for what they do. However, most makers have not done their part in adding to the knowledgeable collector pool with new blood. New guys are fighting for the finite supply of disposable income from the same crowd, and with all the new makers out there, it will make times very tight for some guys who are beginning to run that well dry.
Click to expand...

If someone gets $1000 for a simple but dressed up hunter, say damascus and stag or similar, Fisk or otherwise, it sure makes a $400 hunter seem resonable. I'm not saying they are equals, but if you've got a good solid knife for under half of what the top of the heap goes for, it sure looks appealing.

Should those makers raise their prices? Maybe. Will there be a point where it gets rediculous and people stop buying? Of course.
 
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