the fallacy of firesteels

Anything can fail, that's why I carry three fire sources on board when I do an outdoor expedition, and have a small waterproof Otter box loaded with more waterproof matches in the ATV's breakdown bag. :)
And that's in addition to fire sources carried by whoever happens to be riding in the passenger seat on any given outing.

Just saying when it comes to lighters, I prefer the jet flamers for the reasons I gave. :)
Everybody makes their own choices.
Denis
 
panzertroop said:
Zippo, good enough for dog faced GIs in WWII. Good enough for me. :)
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I have several Zippos. I keep them around for nostalgia mostly. They will leave a cherry on your leg if carried in a pants pocket. They tend to dry out when not used for any length of time. One of them is my Dad's Zippo from WWII. He used Bics when they finally came out in '73.
 
Had more than one leg "burn" from the naptha with a Zippo & more than one occasion when they were dried up when I needed 'em. :)
Denis
 
everyone has their preferred kit. just glad to see the skills over gear theme and it`s importance. I am a fan of and comfortable with a firesteel primarilly because in training it was all we were allowed to use. i remember (fondly?) finishing an igloo and then having to store our gloves and do a full 3 times prep fire lit with shavings and metal match...if you time it right the shaking numb hands will give a good spark... took forever but the skill and technique learned were priceless. My test for ignition sources and tinder has always been... stomp on it, drop in water, drop in mud, throw against tree, repeat repeat repeat. It would be silly to not use my peanut lighter first, but many weeks and many fires later i will have a metal match. mine is almost 17 years old and has thousands of fires still to light and does not require maintenance. i epoxied it to a nice piece of pitch so it wont break in half, and they serve as one of three sources i always carry in my gear.
 
Great post. A good reminder to never count on any one tool to accomplish a majority of tasks. Redunduncy and is very good. I have always been a fan of matches for the above mentioned reasons.

PS. I hope you are not diving on Nitrox to 260ft.... Be safe.
 
panzertroop said:
Zippo, good enough for dog faced GIs in WWII. Good enough for me. :)
Click to expand...

Me too. Once you tune them they hold there fuel pretty well. Of course I fill it before every trip just to be sure. I also carry extra tinder in there. Who says the amount of batting they provide is all you should have in there? ;)

The leg burns are from overfilling. That happened to me once. Then I wised up. ;)
 
as someone who lived though a very similar scenario- not fishing- duck hunting; not cool- cold (5F), dumped a canoe in the Bighorn River in mid December, I can very much relate to this thread

I can tell you a few things that don't work- a bic lighter that gets wet, wooden strike anywhere kitchen matches- they kept going out between wind and water dripping down my sleeves- after failing to get a fire going (your fine motor skills are lost much faster than one may imagine) we recovered the canoe and paddled for our lives 3 river miles to our camp (where we stripped down and fired up a propane stove in a wall tent which saved our bacon)

I now carry a K&M match safe w/ UCO/REI matches (firesteel as a last resort), just as importantly I carry a couple of firestraws (the firestraws fit in the safe) and two Wetfire cubes

reliable ignition plus reliable tinder- gives you the best chance in the given scenario

I also keep a 2 person heatsheet on my person (along w/ a knife, whistle and light)- if it's not on your person there is a chance you won't have it when needed

matchsafecontents.jpg
 
THE COLD HAND DEXTERITY QUESTION:

Several posters have eluded to being able to use a firesteel to start a fire when their hands are too cold to strike a match.

I've thought a lot about that, and I've concluded that it doesn't make sense. I'm not accusing anyone of telling stories out of school here, it's just that I don't see being able to successfully utilize a firesteel, striker, and tinder if my hands are so cold I can't strike a match. And I grew up in a very cold climate and know exactly how useless cold hands can be...I can't count how many times I couldn't get my zipper back up because my fingers wouldn't function.

Now If we were squatting over a plate of gasoline-soaked cotton I can see how a firesteel would be superior for the frozen-fingered, but making a spark and lighting a fire are two different things in the real world. In the cold temperatures where fingers are compromised, even excellent natural tinder such as shaved fatwood requires several very good sparks to start burning. Accessing easy-light tinder from a straw or screw-top container seems at least as dexterity intensive as striking a match.

Everyone has different physiology, and an accurate apples-to-apples test would to be very hard to do because of all the variable factors, but TO ME, this sounds like something that lacks any real foundation.

So has anyone out there ACTUALLY had to abandon their matches and resort to a firesteel because their hands were too cold to function? If so what were the circumstances?
 
I've not had to do this one 'for real', survival in the UK tends to mean trying to get off the hill and down to the pub before closing time, but I used it to demonstrate the idea while lighting a fire in a sodden Welsh forest after weeks of continual rain. Everything was soaked to the core and it was still raining...

Simple idea: Use one of those plastic shell-like containers that plastic gloves sometimes come in in women's hair dye. I don't know if you know what I mean, but they are about 1.5" long by 1" diameter and in two halves that click together. I fill one with a mixture of cotton wool, a little vaseline, and that rolled in warm wax to make a more-or less waterproof ball. That is pushed into the plastic container while still soft so it all moulds together into the shell.

To use, just stamp on it (slightly) to break it open, or hit it with a log, whatever. Tease it about with a stick or knife to break through the wax if needed and get to the vaseline core.

Then, use a one-handed ferro rod - the type with a built in, sprung striker. I got mine in an 'ultimate survival kit' that came in an otter-style box with a saw, mirror etc. It works really well, with just one hand. It's also quite chunky so is easier when hands are cold, or in gloves.

It worked just as planned, one handed. Of course, getting enough dry kindling would have been more difficult one handed in such wet conditions... I cheated and used both hands for that.
 
Sutured
Not sure who your referring to in your post, but if i`m in the group of people you feel are not giving fact based, personal experience or situational experience that meets your criteria for "actual"... please feel free to call me on it. i can take it, and will do my best to elaborate as I can also back up any situation i have given with approximate dates and actual locations so you can validate if the situation meets your definitions and parameters to be deemed authentic.
From my experience, which i feel is actual, fact based and valid enough for me... the issue is and will always be that people rely on equipment rather than take the time to master the skill. Thats why i like the ferro rod. if i can get fire with it in any situation... i`m going to have an easier time with an open flame source if i have one.
So to ensure i give you a scenario you approve of i`ll do my best to give details.
1996, Washington State, Ruby Creek Training area north of Colville, November,Approximately ankle deep snow,temperate forest with a Mix of lodgepole pine, tamarack(larch), cedar.
Activity of the day was Rewarming drills done by submerging fully clothed in Ruby creek(for those of you who know,we were in the flat area behind the ruby c.p.) after using a shovel to break thru the ice crusted on top. safety ropes in place and Flight Surgeon and medics observing with stopwatches to ensure submerged times do not exceed hypothermia limits.After being submerged for however long we had to use buddy heat and keep our hands in our crotches(highest concentration of body head due to largest arteries)until we had enough manual dexterity to build a knee high maintainable fire with man made tinder lit with a metal match.we had no option to use any other ignition source. What i learned was the value of wool, windbreaks, and shaking off as much water from my upper body as i could because it kept running down my arms and screwing everything up.We did this in a safe,controlled environment with medics and a warming tent nearby but i can assure you my body was convulsing to the point that learning did happen.The situation i referred to before was in our initial arctic phase of training on top of Calispell Peak in which we wore boots and drawers only and had to build a fire. They had us do igloos prior to get us a bit sweaty to help us understand the effects of hypothermia.
I hope these two situations have enough facts in them for you to deem them as having foundation, as that was the point of me doing it... so i can pass that experience on to others and explain in detail how thing are or are not possible based on that experience.
What i do understand and am annoyed at myself for,is falling into the trap i try to avoid by reading but rarely posting; as there is always someone who deems everything THEY know as valid and if it is not something in their skill or knowledge bank... they refuse to believe that anyone else on this planet could possibly have a VALID experience that differs.If you cant build a fire in the wettest, coldest conditions it is because you have not prepared and chosen correctly, not your choice of ignition device.
But what do i know... i`m just a liar with no valid experience.
Sorry for the rant.
 
SERE 9601 said:
Sutured
Not sure who your referring to in your post, but if i`m in the group of people you feel are not giving fact based, personal experience or situational experience that meets your criteria for "actual"... please feel free to call me on it. i can take it, and will do my best to elaborate as I can also back up any situation i have given with approximate dates and actual locations so you can validate if the situation meets your definitions and parameters to be deemed authentic.
From my experience, which i feel is actual, fact based and valid enough for me... the issue is and will always be that people rely on equipment rather than take the time to master the skill. Thats why i like the ferro rod. if i can get fire with it in any situation... i`m going to have an easier time with an open flame source if i have one.
So to ensure i give you a scenario you approve of i`ll do my best to give details.
1996, Washington State, Ruby Creek Training area north of Colville, November,Approximately ankle deep snow,temperate forest with a Mix of lodgepole pine, tamarack(larch), cedar.
Activity of the day was Rewarming drills done by submerging fully clothed in Ruby creek(for those of you who know,we were in the flat area behind the ruby c.p.) after using a shovel to break thru the ice crusted on top. safety ropes in place and Flight Surgeon and medics observing with stopwatches to ensure submerged times do not exceed hypothermia limits.After being submerged for however long we had to use buddy heat and keep our hands in our crotches(highest concentration of body head due to largest arteries)until we had enough manual dexterity to build a knee high maintainable fire with man made tinder lit with a metal match.we had no option to use any other ignition source. What i learned was the value of wool, windbreaks, and shaking off as much water from my upper body as i could because it kept running down my arms and screwing everything up.We did this in a safe,controlled environment with medics and a warming tent nearby but i can assure you my body was convulsing to the point that learning did happen.The situation i referred to before was in our initial arctic phase of training on top of Calispell Peak in which we wore boots and drawers only and had to build a fire. They had us do igloos prior to get us a bit sweaty to help us understand the effects of hypothermia.
I hope these two situations have enough facts in them for you to deem them as having foundation, as that was the point of me doing it... so i can pass that experience on to others and explain in detail how thing are or are not possible based on that experience.
What i do understand and am annoyed at myself for,is falling into the trap i try to avoid by reading but rarely posting; as there is always someone who deems everything THEY know as valid and if it is not something in their skill or knowledge bank... they refuse to believe that anyone else on this planet could possibly have a VALID experience that differs.If you cant build a fire in the wettest, coldest conditions it is because you have not prepared and chosen correctly, not your choice of ignition device.
But what do i know... i`m just a liar with no valid experience.
Sorry for the rant.
Click to expand...

You crack me up! :rolleyes:
 
I abandoned matches years ago. dont even carry them. I do carry a zippo as I am a smoker, and as nice as it is, it doesnt work all the time. I also carry a small boyscout ferro rod on my keychain. but when Im out hiking, fishing, hunting, pretty much anything outdoors, I have my hunting knife on me, and it has a large ferro rod in a loop on the side of the sheath.

for me {my fingers dont work all that well when cold} and my climate {cold, dry windy wyoming} the ferro rod is the absolute best way to get sparks, which lead to coals, which in turn lead to fire. when my hands cant pick up a match, they can grasp the handle of the ferro rod and the handle of the knife, put the knife in a fist on top of sagebrush, aspen, cottonwood bark, and the other hand puts the ferro rod against the 90 degree angle on the ricasso {my knives are differentially hardened and the spine is not hard enough to get sparks} and using bigger muscles I can get those sparks.

now to me a ferro rod is not a "fire starter" as in it doesnt make fire {not right off the bat anyway}, it makes sparks. fire as in flame is very suseptable to wind, sparks turn to coals when they land on something flamable, and turn into coals, coals need the wind to grow, once they grow to a large enough size, and the mixture of "gas" coming off the material reaches the correct combination of heat, gas, and oxygen, you have flame/fire.

I did get some of the fancy matches because of this thread. and plan to try them out as I have never tried the 12 second ones. I bought some "proforce wind and waterproof saftey matches nato issue". they say safety matches, but will strike on concrete. I lit my zippo, and a match, and within the 12 seconds lightly blew on them with my breath, and the zippo stayed lit and the match went out, but it did sizzle for a bit and then re-lit itself. the container they come in has a lid thats not a screw top, and I think I could get it open when my hands are cold. whether I could strike the match witout breaking it, I dont know. but I will give them a try.
 
the REI/UCO storm matches are not your average match :D

I still contend carrying reliable tinder (waterproofed if necessary) is just as important as carrying a reliable sparker- wetfire cubes will stay lit in a glass of water :eek:

[youtube]a8BY6AbHL9w[/youtube]
 
I've always viewed firesteel and variants as something you should have and try to be proficient with but not what you use all the time. I like firesteel because it can age, get banged up, get wet, etc. and still be fine. It's an emergency tool to me and I only use it to keep myself proficient with it, most of the time I use other means.
 
Same form factor as a firesteel but not mentioned was its combination with Magnesium.

I have lit natural tinders with my little firesteel/magnesium rod where others have failed with the best firesteels and scrapers alone. Incorporating magnesium gives your another 2,000*F+ plus a brief radiant flame... enough to light old pine needles and hardwood leaves regularly.

Fine vs. Gross Motor Skills
Using a firesteel is a gross motor skill. Getting a match out of a packed match-safe can easily become a fine motor skill. Something to consider.

Nonetheless, I carry REI Stormproof matches, firesteel/magnesium combo, bic, fresnel lens, tinder and at the bottom of my fire kit is friction fire (rope, knife). Always on my person though is the firesteel/magnesium.

[video=youtube;dvp3YybSx64]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvp3YybSx64[/video]​
 
abo4ster said:
Same form factor as a firesteel but not mentioned was its combination with Magnesium.

I have lit natural tinders with my little firesteel/magnesium rod where others have failed with the best firesteels and scrapers alone. Incorporating magnesium gives your another 2,000*F+ plus a brief radiant flame... enough to light old pine needles and hardwood leaves regularly.

Fine vs. Gross Motor Skills
Using a firesteel is a gross motor skill. Getting a match out of a packed match-safe can easily become a fine motor skill. Something to consider.

Nonetheless, I carry REI Stormproof matches, firesteel/magnesium combo, bic, fresnel lens, tinder and at the bottom of my fire kit is friction fire (rope, knife). Always on my person though is the firesteel/magnesium.
Click to expand...
I too have found that larger shavings from the Magnesium blocks ignite faster (the fine shavings wont light at all in most cases). Although, I have only experimented with the Collagen brand magnesium fire starters. Great video!
 
I like using magnesium bars ... if it's windy you can put your magnesium scrapings on a piece of duct tape :thumbup:
 
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