THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread

[robgmn]

Don't forget that the discussion of single piece versus multi-piece knives is supposed to be academic (given that it's been shown a multi-piece can be VERY strong indeed, and that a hollow-handle is not a major space-saving innovation).

A survival kit in a 35mm film container is pretty small and waterproof. Almost as small as the sharpening stone pocket (in a survival situation a smooth rock can be used for sharpening). If a sheath pocket the size of that film container totally throws off the entire package, then it might be best if you stay out of the woods to begin with.
I can't imagine how you'd react to having to eat grubs and other insects to survive instead of finding the free range chicken you had expected to cross paths with.

And regardless of one's experience and whether you personally can break a two-piece knife, the engineering fact is and will remain that a single piece of steel will be stronger than two pieces of the same steel that are joined together by mechanical or chemical bonding (welding falls in the mechanical region).

Your "unequivocal" determination that a one-piece hollow handle will never be superior to a two piece also falls flat on its face because it is conditional on the thickness of the tube needed to find a proper "balance point" for the knife.
You might as well say a Lambo will never be as fast as a Camaro as long as the Lambo has no tires on the rims, or an axe will never split wood as well as a Buckmaster as long as the axe head is hollow with .001" walls so it can be swung faster.
Both are silly premises.

Just as silly as declaring an absolute of strength based on building a survival to meet a specific "balance point" (which in and of itself forces the conclusion that you hope to achieve). As above, if you need to have that perfect balance pint on a knife in order to survive in the woods, you are likely effed and should probably use the knife for seppuku instead.

 

[Sam Wilson]

Robgmn, don't let it bother you. There is a lot of good thread to enjoy here, and no one takes him (Gaston) seriously anyway.

To get back on topic, I pretty much agree with Mark on this. You reach a point with these things where I ask myself, how "strong" (whatever exactly that means) does a knife need to be, anyway? There have been enough demonstrations of "strength" (which in this context seems to keep going back to "will the handle break off in use") with quality HH knives for me to not even think about it anymore. If someone is that worried about it, they should just get whatever knife gives them enough confidence and go with it. No sense second guessing your tools all the time when there are so many great choices out there, of many different designs.

Also, meant to say beautiful new knife, TAH. That Running River is an exquisite example of precision craftsmanship. Nice purchase.

Sam :thumbup:

 

[Mark Knapp]

If that can be done reliably, then it certainly would allow a thinner handle wall...

There are however other issues that I briefly address in the above post: The huge extra cost of including at least a lower guard, and the juncture would still be all metal, and to reduce this juncture weight it would have to be tapered and "pinched", as on the Reeve models: I prefer a fully broad full width handle section near the guard, to tighten my thumb forefinger web while chopping, but we are getting into real personal preferences here...

If the guard could be included with a thin wall handle, then that would certainly prove my point wrong...

Gaston

One would certainly have to start with a huge chunk of steel to make a true integral with a double guard. I am sure it could be done, have all the attributes you like but not economically feasible.

 

[Mark Knapp]

I agree wholeheartedly... Incidently, your "1911" hollow handle knife is next on my "bucket" list, as I am a big fan of it...

I don't really see it as a "pure" Survival Knife however: I think it is a pure fighting knife with a versatile "survival" option...: The 3/16" stock certainly points that way...

I love the way the long clip drops the point in a pure fighting style... I think everything about it is just the way I would have done it for a soldier's knife...

Gaston

Good points, its intention was to be carried in an airplane or boat, have enough weight for a chopper yet still have a pointy business end for penetration if needed. The survival ulu/hatchet is, though different, killer too. It's a great skinner when used as an ulu and a fantastic chopper when used as a hatchet. Thanks for your comments.

 

[Mark Knapp]

Don't forget that the discussion of single piece versus multi-piece knives is supposed to be academic (given that it's been shown a multi-piece can be VERY strong indeed, and that a hollow-handle is not a major space-saving innovation).

A survival kit in a 35mm film container is pretty small and waterproof. Almost as small as the sharpening stone pocket (in a survival situation a smooth rock can be used for sharpening). If a sheath pocket the size of that film container totally throws off the entire package, then it might be best if you stay out of the woods to begin with.
I can't imagine how you'd react to having to eat grubs and other insects to survive instead of finding the free range chicken you had expected to cross paths with.

And regardless of one's experience and whether you personally can break a two-piece knife, the engineering fact is and will remain that a single piece of steel will be stronger than two pieces of the same steel that are joined together by mechanical or chemical bonding (welding falls in the mechanical region).

Your "unequivocal" determination that a one-piece hollow handle will never be superior to a two piece also falls flat on its face because it is conditional on the thickness of the tube needed to find a proper "balance point" for the knife.
You might as well say a Lambo will never be as fast as a Camaro as long as the Lambo has no tires on the rims, or an axe will never split wood as well as a Buckmaster as long as the axe head is hollow with .001" walls so it can be swung faster.
Both are silly premises.

Just as silly as declaring an absolute of strength based on building a survival to meet a specific "balance point" (which in and of itself forces the conclusion that you hope to achieve). As above, if you need to have that perfect balance pint on a knife in order to survive in the woods, you are likely effed and should probably use the knife for seppuku instead.

Your kind of a snarky fellow aint you.

To each his own I guess.

My HH carries a 1"X 3" diamond hone, a ferric magnesium rod, thirty feet of synthetic sinew, fish hooks, needles, a leatherman micro and soon, a Readyman 1" X 3" survival card with frog and fish gigs, fish hooks spinner blades and snare locks. All in the handle, if that's negligible space savings to you then I will leave you to your own beliefs, but I will point out that it's way more than your film canister will hold. My sheath has a pocket for even more stuff.

The weld at the juncture of my blade to handle is stronger than any of the two counter parts on either side of it (my tests prove it) The weld is not the week point. The week point is just in front of the guard as it is on any full tang knife.

Not to sound too braggy but, I was once left by a pilot for two and a half months with two weeks of food on my trap line (he forgot about me) in the winter, in remote Alaska. No free range chicken there. I also walked to the nearest village, seventy miles away to replace a broken snow mobile part (a different event) at 30 below zero. I have also survived broken ribs and a broken knee cap while building a cabin solo in remote Alaska. I say these things only to show that I may know a little bit about what I talk about. I never ate a grub but I have eaten martin and coyotes and other things.

 

[bowie69]

Haven't posted in this thread in a while, but I wanted to chime in today to say that it is very cool that we have a few actual makers of hollow handle knives posting in our midst. Mark Knapp and (of course) Sam Wilson, and if I left anyone else out I apologize. It is great to have this direct contact with skilled knifemakers. I always enjoy their comments.

 

[Mark Knapp]

Here's the thing, in my opinion, in order to have any real knowledge of the destruction of knives (ie. what is stronger) you need to have tested some knives to destruction. Anything else is just supposition and conjecture. Maybe, if you were an engineer you could talk about the engineering of a knife. If you had built some knives you could talk about the construction of knives. If you owned some of the knives you could at least talk about them somewhat knowledgeably. If you haven't done any of these things, you are still allowed an opinion, but then it's really just an opinion.

Just sayin' ya gotta have knowledge to have it.

I think the only people really eating grubs are the reality TV survivalists. Where ever there are grubs to be eaten, there are other things eating the grubs. I prefer to eat the grub eaters, not the grubs, like fish, lynx, and birds up here, snakes and turtles in the lower 48, just to name a few. You can use the grubs to catch the grub eaters. Fish hooks work on terrestrial foods as well as they do on fish.

 

[Gaston444]

One would certainly have to start with a huge chunk of steel to make a true integral with a double guard. I am sure it could be done, have all the attributes you like but not economically feasible.

It just occurred to me that, if the extra-thin tube handle wall is possible as a single piece knife, with the tube handle not hardened to edge brittleness, then at least a lower guard could just be a separate part that slots over the blade's base, by an open slot on the guard: This would solve the guard cost issue...

It still strikes me that this is at least a little like a massive metal mass shifting, even if in a gradual taper, to something like metal lace embroidery, which would still have vastly different vibration characteristics to the rest of the single piece...

Imagine an anvil with a decorative "screen" sprouting from it, a screen made of thin metal lace-like embroidery...: Imagine one anvil with the screen integral to the anvil, and another anvil with the screen simply bolted on to the anvil, with rubber spacers for good measure...: Would the bolted-on screen be considered inherently weaker and less durable than the integral screen?

I would say it would not, because the bolted-on screen would pre-empt the potential cracking area by being an already separate part...

This is not to say the integral screen could not hold on forever: This is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that the inherent superiority of disparate shapes and thicknesses being brought together in a single part is an illusion: It is an illusion because of the disparity in shapes and thicknesses.

In fact, I would guess many engineers would say the bolted-on screen is a safer design against vibration cracking, at least in theory: The opposite of what is assumed.

Probably a single piece hollow handle knife, even with thin handle walls, would still never crack... However, to say it is inherently superior to a separate handle is not true, and in theory it is probably the reverse, depending on the thinness of the tube walls.


Gaston

 

[Mark Knapp]

It just occurred to me that, if the extra-thin tube handle wall is possible as a single piece knife, with the tube handle not hardened to edge brittleness, then at least a lower guard could just be a separate part that slots over the blade's base, by an open slot on the guard: This would solve the guard cost issue...

It still strikes me that this is at least a little like a massive metal mass shifting, even if in a gradual taper, to something like metal lace embroidery, which would still have vastly different vibration characteristics to the rest of the single piece...

Imagine an anvil with a decorative "screen" sprouting from it, a screen made of thin metal lace-like embroidery...: Imagine one anvil with the screen integral to the anvil, and another anvil with the screen simply bolted on to the anvil, with rubber spacers for good measure...: Would the bolted-on screen be considered inherently weaker and less durable than the integral screen?

I would say it would not, because the bolted-on screen would pre-empt the potential cracking area by being an already separate part...

This is not to say the integral screen could not hold on forever: This is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that the inherent superiority of disparate shapes and thicknesses being brought together in a single part is an illusion: It is an illusion because of the disparity in shapes and thicknesses.

In fact, I would guess many engineers would say the bolted-on screen is a safer design against vibration cracking, at least in theory: The opposite of what is assumed.

Probably a single piece hollow handle knife, even with thin handle walls, would still never crack... However, to say it is inherently superior to a separate handle is not true, and in theory it is probably the reverse, depending on the thinness of the tube walls.


Gaston

Personally, I think you are way overthinking it. I t quite possible to make the edge hard and the ricasso and everything from it to the butt what we call "dead soft" with differential heat treating. ABS'ers ( American Bladesmith Society Journeyman and Master smiths, I am one) do it all the time. If everything east of the ricasso on a west pointed knife is "dead soft" you will have no trouble with brittleness or any other problems. In my mind it would be stronger if it was a single piece treated like I described. But then this is just a exercise in academics because to my thinking they could both be built way stronger than they need to be.

 

[Gaston444]

Personally, I think you are way overthinking it. I t quite possible to make the edge hard and the ricasso and everything from it to the butt what we call "dead soft" with differential heat treating. ABS'ers ( American Bladesmith Society Journeyman and Master smiths, I am one) do it all the time. If everything east of the ricasso on a west pointed knife is "dead soft" you will have no trouble with brittleness or any other problems. In my mind it would be stronger if it was a single piece treated like I described. But then this is just a exercise in academics because to my thinking they could both be built way stronger than they need to be.

Good to know: I did not know this. My understanding was that most knives, especially factory knives outside of San Mai III or TOPS, seem to be hardened all the way through to a uniform hardness, including all INFI and the Chris Reeve one piece series. That was the basis on which I made my assumptions...

All I can say is the 8.75" Jereboam Mk II seemed to me like a "perfect" knife in design, and it was even quite reasonable in quoted weight "on paper" at 17 ounces (which is plausible, but I still have a hard time believing this after 6 years of carrying it!), yet it felt weird and completely wrong as a basic concept, especially compared to the Lile "Mission" or even the big shiny Cox...

Very apparent, when you chop with it, is the tendency of the saber grind to touch the sides of a cut, because the blade is so narrow, causing the knife to roll or glance wildly to one side from deep cuts. I see this narrow blade as partly a function of keeping the inherent weight and one-piece grinding costs down.

It could be that this is the knife for some people, but my objection was to the widespread notion that they are the "ultimate" hollow handle "Survival Knives", especially for the large ones.

For smaller non-chopping knives, even some cheap low-end 1980s Parker knives, with moulded-on aluminium handles, are just as durable, with very durable quality stainless steel blades and much lighter handles, and yet no one thinks of heaping praise on those as the "ultimate"...

I think we agree many, many attachment systems are far beyond any requirements, so the one-piece concept should be understood as a psychological reassurance, which is one step removed from hype...

Gaston

 

[TAH]

or even the big shiny Cox...

Hey, let's keep it clean, buddy.

 

[TAH]

One would certainly have to start with a huge chunk of steel to make a true integral with a double guard.

Just saw this 6lb 7oz double guard integral by Edmund Davidson. Unreal...

 

[Mark Knapp]

Just saw this 6lb 7oz double guard integral by Edmund Davidson. Unreal...

That thing is a brute, is it HH? At 6 pounds it can't be, could it? I've got rifles that weigh less than that.

 

[Mark Knapp]

Good to know: I did not know this. My understanding was that most knives, especially factory knives outside of San Mai III or TOPS, seem to be hardened all the way through to a uniform hardness, including all INFI and the Chris Reeve one piece series. That was the basis on which I made my assumptions...


I think we agree many, many attachment systems are far beyond any requirements, so the one-piece concept should be understood as a psychological reassurance, which is one step removed from hype...

Gaston

You are right, most or all production or semi-production knives are heat treated throughout. But remember we were talking about what could be done not what is done.

I personally don't think that any advantage that might be gained with one-piece construction is worth the effort. but, to each his own. We are always striving to build something different, to set us apart. Some will like it, others won't.

 

[TAH]

That thing is a brute, is it HH? At 6 pounds it can't be, could it? I've got rifles that weigh less than that.

Not a hollow handle, but a fine example of an integral with a large double guard and a sub-hilt to boot.

 

[Mark Knapp]

Not a hollow handle, but a fine example of an integral with a large double guard and a sub-hilt to boot.

yeah, it's a beast.

 

[TAH]

To my surprise, I ran across this early Running River knife on eBay and thought it was very interesting. I've never seen one like it. Not sure if it was Steve Allen's first knife or a prototype, but it certainly doesn't have the same precision fit and finish of my knife. Note the fully knurled handle, "generous" solder/weld job, space between the blade/guard, totally different blade grind, and lack of blade stamp. The seller gives a date of 1982, which is 4 years before the knife was introduced in Blade Magazine. Glad to see Steve stuck with it and refined the design and build quality of this great knife.

 

[BladeScout]

Nice. I like that one.

 

[Jackal87]

My collection of Parrish.. I love these knives!! Guys I have a question, thanks if someone will respond..
Unfortunately, all my Parrish sheaths does not have the sharpening stones.. I don't know if Mr.Parrish provided a stone with his sheaths, but the question is this:
it is possible to find somewhere some sharpening stone of that size? Possibly of those years, 1980/1990?

 

[Jackal87]

Strangely, one of the cordura sheaths is different, with automatic buttons..