THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread

[Mark Knapp]

I'm a die hard Randall enthusiast and believer, but I have also questioned how effective the #18 saw would be on aircraft aluminum, especially the knives that end up with fewer/larger teeth. It just seems like they would get hung up easily.

I agree with you.
I can test them on an aircraft skin if anyone wants to send me one. I'll take good care of it, send it back and post pictures here.
I have the highest regard for the Randall folks. Sometimes things don't work out as intended though.

 

[Gaston444]

I love them too: The stainless 440 seems to perform very well, and edge geometry is real thin at 0.020", which is quite rare on burly-type knives.

Speaking of Randalls, I just got into an argument about Randall quality on a French site, and this is what the guy posted to argue against them, advocating a BK-7 instead... He described their design as antiquated because of the their hollow grinds and stick tangs...: This was done batoning, what else?:

This is a very unusual(?) Model 14 with leather handle and stick tang... He must have sung a few choice French words when that brand new thing broke...

I don't baton solely because of micro-folding the edge, but stick tangs also favour lighter weight, a blade heavy chopping balance, and hand isolation from vibrations, and I certainly would hate to reduce all those qualities...

Gaston

 

[TAH]

This was done batoning, what else?:

Ouch! Someone would make a fortune if they were able to invent a tool that was specifically designed for splitting wood. Perhaps it would look something like this...

 

[robgmn]

They could even make one for kindling!
It could look like this:

 

[d762nato]

I love them too: The stainless 440 seems to perform very well, and edge geometry is real thin at 0.020", which is quite rare on burly-type knives.

Speaking of Randalls, I just got into an argument about Randall quality on a French site, and this is what the guy posted to argue against them, advocating a BK-7 instead... He described their design as antiquated because of the their hollow grinds and stick tangs...: This was done batoning, what else?:

This is a very unusual(?) Model 14 with leather handle and stick tang... He must have sung a few choice French words when that brand new thing broke...

I don't baton solely because of micro-folding the edge, but stick tangs also favour lighter weight, a blade heavy chopping balance, and hand isolation from vibrations, and I certainly would hate to reduce all those qualities...

Gaston

What a shame is that a newer 14?

 

[TAH]

What a shame is that a newer 14?

Looking at the blade stamp and thin spacers, I would say yes.

 

[Mark Knapp]

I love them too: The stainless 440 seems to perform very well, and edge geometry is real thin at 0.020", which is quite rare on burly-type knives.

Speaking of Randalls, I just got into an argument about Randall quality on a French site, and this is what the guy posted to argue against them, advocating a BK-7 instead... He described their design as antiquated because of the their hollow grinds and stick tangs...: This was done batoning, what else?:

This is a very unusual(?) Model 14 with leather handle and stick tang... He must have sung a few choice French words when that brand new thing broke...

I don't baton solely because of micro-folding the edge, but stick tangs also favour lighter weight, a blade heavy chopping balance, and hand isolation from vibrations, and I certainly would hate to reduce all those qualities...

Gaston

This is very disappointing to me. First thing I did after seeing this was google "Broken Randall Knife" This image is shown in many places, and gave lots of reasons for the failure. One of them was "a heavy grit sanding scratch that caused a stress riser in heat treat" I did not see one that said it was because of batoning, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

The real thing that disappointed me about this image is how narrow the tang is where it enters the guard. It looks like to me like the tang makes up only slightly more than 1/3 of the overall width of the blade at the ricasso. It has been my policy to make the width of the tang as wide as it can be where it enters the guard. Like the knife at the bottom of this picture.

Here's one of mine that I just happen to have on my bench, this is just after heat treat.

A quick look at the google images of 'Broken Randall Knives" showed a disturbing number of Randalls apparently broken during batoning. Still not a hater but it's a bummer.

 

[Gaston444]

You are right: I re-read what the French poster said, and he only claims to have done the same with the same kind of knife, not the same knife...

I doubt a "normal" Model 14 like mine would have the same problem...

It says more about batoning than the knives, but one thing I don't like about Randalls is that that they list 1/4" stock but grind them much thinner (0.22" on my Model 12, and barely 0.20" on my Model 18, both listed as full 0.25"), Wall Knives even touting how his versions are a full true 1/4"(!)...

Gaston

 

[Mark Knapp]

You are right: I re-read what the French poster said, and he only claims to have done the same with the same kind of knife, not the same knife...

I doubt a "normal" Model 14 like mine would have the same problem...

It says more about batoning than the knives, but one thing I don't like about Randalls is that that they list 1/4" stock but grind them much thinner (0.22" on my Model 12, and barely 0.20" on my Model 18, both listed as full 0.25"), Wall Knives even touting how his versions are a full true 1/4"(!)...

Gaston

I disagree, to me it says more about the knives. I will know more about it later, but I think a well constructed knife should be able to take all the batoning you want to give it.

 

[Gaston444]

I have seen in an old thread a 1/4" thick Busse that broke from batoning... It was a 10 year old second hand owner, and Jerry covered it by partial replacement value, as the knife was no longer made, and no similar one existed at that low equivalent price...

The reason why no knife might be completely immune to batoning could be a phenomenon called "Sympathetic vibration": If the metal is not free to move around its entire length, because the middle portion is strongly trapped by wood, this then confines the vibration movements to shorter portions of the blade, which will be more rigid and less able to dampen vibrations by moving around.

If that greater impeded vibration "effort" happens to match the existing "natural" pitch of the "untrapped" blade portion (every object, or separately unsupported objet portion, has a "natural" pitch), then the two vibration pitches overlap, and the impact pitch exerts a repeated "traction" over the natural pitch, leading step by step to an amplification beyond what any metal will tolerate, possibly including INFI...

To my eyes the fallacy is to say that all blades broken by batoning had a "weak point"... Well yes, the vibration will always attack the weakest point, but given the right force and the right vibration pitch, they probably all eventually break. It's just that on tougher knives the process could take several steps: First creating weak points, then opening them up... It will likely never happen, but if it does it there is a good chance it will be when it is unusually cold, and when clumsy cold hands are more likely to create lateral forces when pounding just slightly out of true... I don't deny batoning is useful, but I see it as really a last resort.

Gaston

 

[BladeScout]

Im no engineer, but I believe, you might have misunderstood the term 'sympathetic vibration.'

 

[Mark Knapp]

I have seen in an old thread a 1/4" thick Busse that broke from batoning... It was a 10 year old second hand owner, and Jerry covered it by partial replacement value, as the knife was no longer made, and no similar one existed at that low equivalent price...

The reason why no knife might be completely immune to batoning could be a phenomenon called "Sympathetic vibration": If the metal is not free to move around its entire length, because the middle portion is strongly trapped by wood, this then confines the vibration movements to shorter portions of the blade, which will be more rigid and less able to dampen vibrations by moving around.

If that greater impeded vibration "effort" happens to match the existing "natural" pitch of the "untrapped" blade portion (every object, or separately unsupported objet portion, has a "natural" pitch), then the two vibration pitches overlap, and the impact pitch exerts a repeated "traction" over the natural pitch, leading step by step to an amplification beyond what any metal will tolerate, possibly including INFI...

To my eyes the fallacy is to say that all blades broken by batoning had a "weak point"... Well yes, the vibration will always attack the weakest point, but given the right force and the right vibration pitch, they probably all eventually break. It's just that on tougher knives the process could take several steps: First creating weak points, then opening them up... It will likely never happen, but if it does it there is a good chance it will be when it is unusually cold, and when clumsy cold hands are more likely to create lateral forces when pounding just slightly out of true... I don't deny batoning is useful, but I see it as really a last resort.

Gaston

If I see a blade that is 1 1/4 inches wide at the ricasso, and it is cut down to only .300" wide and has sharp corners where it enters the guard, it's very simple to me, that is poor construction. The blade had an unnecessary week spot in it. That blade, the image we are looking at, may very well have broken in batoning but it was a prime candidate for catastrophic failure through any number of other normal uses. We are talking about basic, recognized knife construction practices. It's no wonder some people would believe full tang knives are stronger than hidden tangs if this is the accepted construction of a hidden tang knife.

Soon enough, I will do my batoning test and I will know more about it.

The fact is, batoning is a realistic thing for a survival knife to be asked to do, it's taught in virtually all the survival courses that I am aware of. It shouldn't be too much to ask of I knife built for survival. I'll find out if it is or not. People need to be able to depend on their knives

 

[Sam Wilson]

I don't even understand what the question (batonning?) is at this point...

 

[Mark Knapp]

I don't even understand what the question (batonning?) is at this point...

To baton or not to baton, that is the question.

Silly me I have been misspelling "batoning" wrong all this time.

Gaston has the opinion that a knife should not be expected to be batoned with without problems. I think a well built knife should be able to stand up to it. What do you think?

 

[robgmn]

To baton or not to baton, that is the question.

Silly me I have been misspelling "batoning" wrong all this time.

Gaston has the opinion that a knife should not be expected to be batoned with without problems. I think a well built knife should be able to stand up to it. What do you think?

If that was an open question then "yes", any quality survival knife should be able to baton without concern for failure.
Should it be able to split a 5" diameter oak log? Uhh, no.
Should it be able to cleave off reasonably sized slabs of wood to use for kindling and small survival fires? Yes.
Should it be able to take a thousand smaller chunks out of a tree in order to fell it? Yes. But what idiot would do it?

 

[Mark Knapp]

If that was an open question then "yes", any quality survival knife should be able to baton without concern for failure.
Should it be able to split a 5" diameter oak log? Uhh, no.
Should it be able to cleave off reasonably sized slabs of wood to use for kindling and small survival fires? Yes.
Should it be able to take a thousand smaller chunks out of a tree in order to fell it? Yes. But what idiot would do it?

Good answer. We would certainly like to choose a tool that's up to the job.

 

[Gaston444]

If I see a blade that is 1 1/4 inches wide at the ricasso, and it is cut down to only .300" wide and has sharp corners where it enters the guard, it's very simple to me, that is poor construction. The blade had an unnecessary week spot in it. That blade, the image we are looking at, may very well have broken in batoning but it was a prime candidate for catastrophic failure through any number of other normal uses. We are talking about basic, recognized knife construction practices. It's no wonder some people would believe full tang knives are stronger than hidden tangs if this is the accepted construction of a hidden tang knife.

Soon enough, I will do my batoning test and I will know more about it.

The fact is, batoning is a realistic thing for a survival knife to be asked to do, it's taught in virtually all the survival courses that I am aware of. It shouldn't be too much to ask of I knife built for survival. I'll find out if it is or not. People need to be able to depend on their knives

I agree the design of the Randall tang shown is too narrow (it seems to me at least very slightly rounded in the inner corners, but hard to say). If the 1.25" ricasso narrowed to a slightly wider 0.5" that would have been acceptable to me, although for a hollow handle tang I think 0.6" or 0.75" wide are probably minimums.

A thin tang is not all downside: It shifts the enter of gravity forward, which is good for chopping comfort for a given weight. Since even small whittling tasks benefit sometimes from a bit of "momentum", this is not as narrow a consideration as usually assumed, even for small tasks, where pushing/slicing alone would be quite taxing over repeated tasks.

Ironically, the shorter tang of hollow handles is probably less likely to vibrate itself to pieces from batoning, precisely because its shorter length reduces its natural vibration to a pitch so short the impact cannot create a matching resonance (the weak point is then the attachment to the tube). I also find hollow handles are typically well isolated against vibrations, and "fatter" where it is most needed, between the thumb and forefinger (where most other handles become thinner). Where many hollow handle fail is in balance, particularly excessive handle weight, sometimes compounded by light narrow "pointy" blades and heavy pommels (as in my most recent Cox model).

To relativize the issue of dry wood and batoning, the following observation struck me recently as I observed the beginning of spring thaw: Thinner branches that are still off the ground dry up much faster than larger diameter logs sitting loser to the ground, even if still standing...: Thinner branches still on a tree, swaying high up in the wind, and thus drying up much faster than larger wet logs closer to the ground, this from their higher exposure to wind alone, not to mention their smaller diameter retaining less moisture, surely all those factors mean that they can be lit up to start a significant fire that will dry up and light bigger logs?

It seems to me the easiest way to harvest those high, thin, hard, dry branches is precisely a large knife that will make the trimming and de-limbing easier... Is the insistence on getting in to drier wood inside bigger but wet logs not predicated on the assumption there is no faster-drying wood available elsewhere? And is it not obvious that a small strong knife, meant for batoning with, is of not much help in harvesting that high but more accessible dry wood? And is a big knife not able to access both? If that is so, why are small 4-6" knives even recommended when they so drastically limit your options?

Gaston

 

[Mark Knapp]

I agree the design of the Randall tang shown is too narrow (it seems to me at least very slightly rounded in the inner corners, but hard to say). If the 1.25" ricasso narrowed to a slightly wider 0.5" that would have been acceptable to me, although for a hollow handle tang I think 0.6" or 0.75" wide are probably minimums.

A thin tang is not all downside: It shifts the enter of gravity forward, which is good for chopping comfort for a given weight. Since even small whittling tasks benefit sometimes from a bit of "momentum", this is not as narrow a consideration as usually assumed, even for small tasks, where pushing/slicing alone would be quite taxing over repeated tasks.

Ironically, the shorter tang of hollow handles is probably less likely to vibrate itself to pieces from batoning, precisely because its shorter length reduces its natural vibration to a pitch so short the impact cannot create a matching resonance (the weak point is then the attachment to the tube). I also find hollow handles are typically well isolated against vibrations, and "fatter" where it is most needed, between the thumb and forefinger (where most other handles become thinner). Where many hollow handle fail is in balance, particularly excessive handle weight, sometimes compounded by light narrow "pointy" blades and heavy pommels (as in my most recent Cox model).

To relativize the issue of dry wood and batoning, the following observation struck me recently as I observed the beginning of spring thaw: Thinner branches that are still off the ground dry up much faster than larger diameter logs sitting loser to the ground, even if still standing...: Thinner branches still on a tree, swaying high up in the wind, and thus drying up much faster than larger wet logs closer to the ground, this from their higher exposure to wind alone, not to mention their smaller diameter retaining less moisture, surely all those factors mean that they can be lit up to start a significant fire that will dry up and light bigger logs?

It seems to me the easiest way to harvest those high, thin, hard, dry branches is precisely a large knife that will make the trimming and de-limbing easier... Is the insistence on getting in to drier wood inside bigger but wet logs not predicated on the assumption there is no faster-drying wood available elsewhere? And is it not obvious that a small strong knife, meant for batoning with, is of not much help in harvesting that high but more accessible dry wood? And is a big knife not able to access both? If that is so, why are small 4-6" knives even recommended when they so drastically limit your options?

Gaston

There is a lot to consider in there.

Since the weak point on any knife is where it joins the ricasso, the bigger the better. Shortly after it passes through the guard it can be tapered solving the balance problem.

I think that the primary intended use of 4-6 inch knives is not fire wood processing, so they should be excused from that discussion. If fire wood processing is one of your priorities then I would lean toward heavy, weight forward knives in the 8-10 inch range.

Dry wood is where you find it. Up here, and many other places I have been (like Minn.) most of my dead dry wood is gathered from the trunks of living pine and spruce trees from close to the ground up to about four or five feet. Some people call it "Squaw Wood" I don't call it that though, it's not PC If you were going to the high arctic or the desert, fire wood processing would be of little concern, the trees just don't get that big there.

 

[TAH]

Where many hollow handle fail is in balance, particularly excessive handle weight, sometimes compounded by light narrow "pointy" blades and heavy pommels (as in my most recent Cox model).

They might fail in balance for your chopping needs, but that doesn't mean the balance is wrong on "many" hollow handle knives. Colin Cox hollow handle knives are properly balanced for their intended purpose - to double as a fighting/combat knife, hence their narrow pointy blades, sharpen top edge, large double guards, and skull crusher buttcaps. Just because a knife has a 10" blade, that doesn't mean it was designed for chopping or will be efficient/effective at chopping. Compare the features of a Colin Cox hollow handle knife to Sam Wilson's M.O.A. knife. Just looking at the two, Colin's knife screams "fighting knife" and Sam's knife screams "let's go chop down a tree, baton some kindling, and make a fire".

When I purchased my Running River knife, I knew it wasn't designed for chopping and I didn't want a blade heavy knife. The balance is perfect for general camp use, however the handle is long enough to shift the weight forward if needed for light chopping.

 

[BladeScout]

Im sure, that the Cox is a quality knife, but for my use Ill take Sam's knife every day of the week.

That bottom knife is (still) absolutely gorgeous.