THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread

Hollow Handled odds and ends -

Gaucho knife hollow handle - http://www.patagonia4x4.com.ar/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=39545 .

Argentine Perpina and Porcel models popular with the military -
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Another Perpina and Porcel model circa 1990-

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Jorfra -

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http://bacotacticoscuchillos.blogspot.com/2009/08/jorfra-de-supervivencia-prototipo.html .

Images taken from - http://bacotacticoscuchillos.blogspot.com/ , a very fine site that catalogs the military knives of Argentina, and other popular knives from the area. Takes a little doing, but nice reading with a little help from google translate.
 
Yes it is quite amazing to see such a large range from South America... I would assume even TAH's book does not cover them, although some Aitor-like Spanish influence is clearly visible in a few of them... I'm guessing their military and other jungle explorers have never heard that these all fly to pieces at the first use... ;)

Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
I'm guessing their military and other jungle explorers have never heard that these all fly to pieces at the first use... ;)
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I do wonder how they're assembled. I would have thought the same thing about your Japanese Buckmaster until I read your review.
 
Well the Aitor design is a simple cross pin with a stiffening "shelf" extension moulded ahead of the cast guard (making it, in theory, enormously strong): Depending on how the tang is drilled, the drilling in the tang is the potential weak point, as at least one recent Aitor JK1 had the actual tang hole break (practically the only broken tang I've seen on a "good" HH!) ... The others are likely just the usual threaded tang with screw, which is also hugely strong if done right (especially is the bolt is rusted in place as on my Oryx!)... The take-down design by Still is incredible and I have never seen anything like this assembly... The only other high end take down that I know of is the Rambo by Jean Tanazaqc...

Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
Yes it is quite amazing to see such a large range from South America... I would assume even TAH's book does not cover them, although some Aitor-like Spanish influence is clearly visible in a few of them... I'm guessing their military and other jungle explorers have never heard that these all fly to pieces at the first use... ;)

Gaston
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Many moons ago I encountered one of those Aitor 'survival' knives held together by a pin - it was an utter POS.
 
BladeScout said:
Many moons ago I encountered one of those Aitor 'survival' knives held together by a pin - it was an utter POS.
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Could you be more specific? The old two-row sawback style of the JK-1 I had in 1985 was among the best sawbacks I ever used. The leather sheath was the best made I have ever seen, even better than Randall. The only thing I hated about it was the stupid very low sabre grind which made it dull as hell... With stones I could never get it sharp... It would have been passable only with a full zero grind, or a hollow grind worked into it... Josh of REK was probably not even born back then...

I remember not liking the rolled hollow pin, so I drove a nail into it to make it "stronger"... I doubt that it was a weak knife, and the handle capacity was really large. At 9" (8.75" minus guard extension) it missed the jump in efficiency of being blade-heavy, but some owners today say a well sharpened one can still be impressive...

The slingshot feature was not on my version of the knife, but from what I hear it was not a joke: The only problem with it was the removable nature of the rubber bands, which made their connection to the arms less secure: They could slip off and bean you in the eye... I think that could be mitigated by fixing them in the field with glue, then wrapping the bands around the arms or the sheath...

Gaston
 
Did a bit of testing of the Voorhis vs the fighter-like re-ground Cox, this under heavy rain a few weeks ago, and got some surprising results...

Despite the disparity in size (11.25" blade vs 10 1/8"), and the broad 2.2" plus flat grind vs the barely 0.75" sabre hollow grind, the difference in raw chopping power was only about 25%. At 22 ounces the Voorhis may have been significantly lighter than the Cox around 25-27 ounces...

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The bigger difference was the rain: Rain causes really broad flat grinds with thin edges to stick in the wood! The effect is so severe the knife cannot be beaten out, but rapping the wood exactly opposite to the edge itself (flipping the whole thing upside down) liberated the knife instantly...

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This happened twice in a row so it definitely was not a one-off: The sabre hollow grind showed no such effect. The effect would be less on the lighter Lile Mission: This knife is simply too big and would require a really light touch to avoid this...

Before I could get back home the 5160 steel was of course heavily pitted, there being no way to wipe it dry under rain...: This is going on the auction block...

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The Patriot leather held up very well, helped by the fact that the socks kept most of the moisture away(!)...

On another occasion I tested a new "split stick" attachment method for a spear tip dagger, since tying up alongside the shaft proved marginally OK, but not secure enough for repeated throws. The guinea pig this time was a Mark II dagger, whose S30V steel made it incapable of holding its apex straight, even while cutting light cardboard...: The nail test after just a few cuts shows there is basically no depths to which this steel will not sink... Probably that skewed apex will hang on forever, giving fair cutting performance, but still...:

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In any case the idea was to test if a non-removable handle could be tied securely: The Colin Cox did a good job, but I can't imagine how awful it would have been if the whole knife had not been re-ground by REK...:

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Surprisingly the extra-fine point survived throwing quite well, but the overall idea offered only a slight improvement in stability...:

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There were other problems too: Splitting a stick large enough to "swallow" in a complete handle meant it was too large in diameter to throw well, and the weight of the rain sopping into it made it a terrible spear to throw... I now think only task-specific nails can offer a useable solution, including a large rigid nail fitting tightly through a hole in the exposed tang (if the handle is removable for the split-stick option), or a large lanyard hole (if the handle is non-removable, which imposes the simpler alongside position).

Unfortunately the Mark II dagger has its lanyard hole parallel to the blade axis, and the Gerber Guardian II has no lanyard hole at all... To be fair the Cold Steel Bushman is probably a way better and simpler solution to all of this, but I just don't like it, so I'll keep fiddling with alternatives :)...

Gaston
 
Gaston, what's the point of testing a knife to see how well it performs as a throwing spear? In what scenario would you ever want to risk damaging your knife? Chopping and sawing tests are one thing, but spear throwing? You lost me.
 
TAH said:
Gaston, what's the point of testing a knife to see how well it performs as a throwing spear? In what scenario would you ever want to risk damaging your knife? Chopping and sawing tests are one thing, but spear throwing? You lost me.
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It's what you do when you're worried that batonniong fatwood slivers for some good kindling is going to ruin the survival blade that you turned into a filet knife.
 
TAH said:
Gaston, what's the point of testing a knife to see how well it performs as a throwing spear? In what scenario would you ever want to risk damaging your knife? Chopping and sawing tests are one thing, but spear throwing? You lost me.
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Gaston, these are honest questions. Why do you go to the trouble of testing, writing your assessment and posting photos, then not bother to reply?
 
Lashing knives to a shaft to be used as a spear is not really a bad idea, throwing it is a bad Idea. I know of a few instances where someone has been successful in securing both small and big game with knives made into spears but they were all successful when they were jabbing not throwing.

The problems with throwing are several;

It's not accurate unless you have lots of time to practice first, we seldom have time for practice in a survival situation (I can't think of any good reason to lash a knife to a stick unless you were in a survival situation or for testing/practice)

If thrown, it can ruin a good knife that you might seriously need before your survival situation is alleviated.

If thrown, you could lose the knife/spear completely. It could get hung up in a large critter and carried away, especially if it has a saw back. I read one account where a guy named Hugh Matila threw an ice spud, spear style, at a caribou that was part of a herd migrating past him. The spud hung up in the animal and was carried away. The ice spud was vital for his subsistence and survival, used for beaver trapping, fishing and getting water. He had to track the caribou for many miles through harsh winter conditions in Canada putting himself in serious danger.

Certainly it's harder to get within jabbing distance of something than it is to get within throwing distance but it is possible, especially for small game. A friend of mine prides himself on being able to catch small game with his bare hands. He has raccoons and feral goats to his credit among other things. I was once so close to migrating caribou that I reached out and touched one from within the bush I was hiding in.

If you want to be able to throw a spear, it's easy enough to make one using a leg bone from a large animal, a shard of glass, large spike (used in log building) or any number of things scrounged up. Tempered wood can work. They will all fly better than a spear made with a knife, you can make a few, chuck them all you want and save your knife.
 
Mark, thank you for stating the obvious regarding turning a knife into a throwing spear. Apparently, Gaston just likes to post photos and not explain himself when questioned. I'm still waiting for the answers to these two questions. :rolleyes:
TAH said:
Gaston, what's the point of testing a knife to see how well it performs as a throwing spear? In what scenario would you ever want to risk damaging your knife?
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TAH said:
Mark, thank you for stating the obvious regarding turning a knife into a throwing spear. Apparently, Gaston just likes to post photos and not explain himself when questioned. I'm still waiting for the answers to these two questions. :rolleyes:
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Things that are obvious to us may not be obvious to everyone. Sometimes it seems like I am talking down to people, but in actuality, some people (not just Gaston) think it's cool to tie knives onto sticks and throw them without thinking of the consequences. It's my hope that they will now think about it more.

We hear of people dying from time to time because they did something we would think of as foolish, like the guy that starved to death at the bus on the Stampede Trail or the guy that camped in the middle of the heavily traveled bear trail near a salmon stream (just two of many).

You asked valid questions, I suspect that he never really thought about it much and now that he did, he doesn't have an answer.
 
The Gerber MKII was made with a certain task in mind.

Being lashed to a stick and thrown is not it.

Why on earth would you do that?
 
Mark Knapp said:
Lashing knives to a shaft to be used as a spear is not really a bad idea, throwing it is a bad Idea. I know of a few instances where someone has been successful in securing both small and big game with knives made into spears but they were all successful when they were jabbing not throwing...
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That is interesting. For big prey I can only imagine that was by standing up in a tree stand... The closest I ever stood to a deer in the wild is 20 feet, and I might be underestimating the distance...

Mark Knapp said:
The problems with throwing are several;

It's not accurate unless you have lots of time to practice first, we seldom have time for practice in a survival situation (I can't think of any good reason to lash a knife to a stick unless you were in a survival situation or for testing/practice)

If thrown, it can ruin a good knife that you might seriously need before your survival situation is alleviated..
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That is the whole point of having it as a secondary knife... The reason I would make it a dagger is that being narrow and ground on both sides it is lighter per blade inch than any other design ground of the same stock... I would concede a sling bow would be much better and more accurate in the same weight range...



Mark Knapp said:
If thrown, you could lose the knife/spear completely. It could get hung up in a large critter and carried away, especially if it has a saw back. I read one account where a guy named Hugh Matila threw an ice spud, spear style, at a caribou that was part of a herd migrating past him. The spud hung up in the animal and was carried away. The ice spud was vital for his subsistence and survival, used for beaver trapping, fishing and getting water. He had to track the caribou for many miles through harsh winter conditions in Canada putting himself in serious danger...
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That is also why I chose a non-essential dagger... Also the shape of the dagger would be far more likely to slip out from the weight of the shaft... It seems very unlikely to me that such a shape would hold in the whole weight of the shaft...

Mark Knapp said:
Certainly it's harder to get within jabbing distance of something than it is to get within throwing distance but it is possible, especially for small game. A friend of mine prides himself on being able to catch small game with his bare hands. He has raccoons and feral goats to his credit among other things. I was once so close to migrating caribou that I reached out and touched one from within the bush I was hiding in.
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Interesting, but it still sounds like a great challenge...

Mark Knapp said:
If you want to be able to throw a spear, it's easy enough to make one using a leg bone from a large animal, a shard of glass, large spike (used in log building) or any number of things scrounged up. Tempered wood can work. They will all fly better than a spear made with a knife, you can make a few, chuck them all you want and save your knife.
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This is where I disagree: A slightly tip heavy spear is a more natural thrower, as the drag of the lighter shaft adds a bit of self-correction in flight (provided the shaft is dry!): This reduces the need for practice. Also there is no comparison in the injury that would be inflicted with a twin sharp edge versus the shallow rapidly healing ragged hole of an improvised point.

While the CS Bushman is more utilitarian and certainly attaches better to a shaft, one of my objections to it is that the broad very thin blade would "catch" the wind and worsen any induced yaw in flight... Also the single edge design is a shape more prone to staying stuck in the animal, and the flat spine might be oriented in a way that minimizes the injury, where the double edge would have broadened the cut from the weight of the shaft...

I think from the minimal chance you might get, you want to hit with the best point possible...

Gaston
 
The idea is to not throw your only tool Gaston. That was clear. If we are picking to take a bunch of survival gear, choosing an extra expendable knife to lash on a spear and throw at stuff isn't even close to an ideal choice. They make much better devices for such things.
 
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