THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread

I have said it once, twice, 3 times, and maybe even 4, 5, or 6 times...Andrew Clifford is just about the Best survival and Bowie knife maker to date. Whether it be hollow handle knives or his original design full round tang knives, his knives are Built To Last and Built To Use, especially in the most extreme survival and combat cases!!

One of my favorite Andrew Clifford handmade knives, aka ACK Knives, is the very first Andrew Clifford Knife I bought. It belonged to a US Military Special Forces soldier.

This soldier, stationed in the Mid East, had contacted Andy in 2002. He asked Andy to come up with a survival knife design that was built like a tank, had a decently length blade, round style handle, and one that could do it All but that was easily controlled in the hands and yet light enuff to add to his daily Recon uniform.

Andy came up with his full round tang design. He gave the knife build a 440C steel blade that is just over 8" long...closer to 9". The thickness, he made slightly thicker than 5/32". Andy also gave it a 5 1/4" handle. The pommel has a hole in it for a lanyard. The pommel is also made to break glass.

Then Andy wrapped the handle with beautiful military-grade dual color para cord. He sent his design idea to the soldier prior to making the knife. The soldier approved the knife build and Andy went to work.

He also added split serrations and raker teeth to the knife build. When Andy was finished, he Shipped the knife to this US soldier.

The story is that the soldier Loved the knife tight away, paid Andy for it. The knife was/is extremely strong and could do anything the soldier wanted it to be able to do. And it was also light enough to add to his uniform.

The soldier used his handmade ACK knife in both Mid East wars, which he was part of. I did not know any of this until I saw the knife being auctioned on Ebay back in 2010. I saw the knife and read the story about it. Andy confirmed that he did make the knife for a US soldier and had kept in contact for awhile until he started not getting replies. He said he isn't sure what happened to the guy at that point.

A couple of other people also confirmed the story. I won this knife and sure enough, when I received it, on the back of the custom made sheath that Andy also made for the knife... was hand signed by Andrew Clifford. It also has the 2002 date on it that it was made. It also has the old address where Andy was living at the time. All handwritren by Andrew Clifford.

When I received the knife, the blade was, and still is, in great shape. But there were Yellowy-Red stain spots on it. I verified it was Not rust.

I learned then, that the US Soldier had actually used the knife during real combat and war-time battle. So these stains could of quite possibly been real blood stains from that time of war. I have since dura coated the blade to preserve it
However, looking back now, I wish I had not done that. As for the Doldier...the original owner of this knife, I was told that he got killed. And his family grieved terribly over his death.

And they paid a service to sell his knife for them on Ebay, along with other items he had during his military service because they felt it was best.

Still, whether the Selling story is true or not, I still dont get why they would Not want to keep things like this of his. I would think they'd keep this knife of his simply out of respect and honor. But everone thinks and gets past grief in different ways.

Regardless though, I do know one thing...that I am very honored and privileged to own this particular ACK custom knife. The story behind it makes it absolutely Priceless! And despite at least a dozen people so far, trying to buy this knife, and their pretty pricey money offers for it, this knife isn't going Anywhere!! It has a permanent home and permanent owner...with Me!! Thanks for reading!!
 
I have had some doozies. The one that most recently takes the cake, and this is not a joke, a guy wanted a hollow handle sawback scimitar machete. For real. I gotta say, I didn't even know it was possible to combine all that stuff into one knife/sword thing, but apparently it is. Somebody else wanted a hollow handle knife that would also launch the blade, like a ballistic knife. But wanted it to be totally safe to use as a regular hollow handle knife for bushcraft or whatever other purposes they had in mind. I'll stop there, and let those sink in. Maybe put in some more at a later date.
Pure gold! A curved sword with a sawback and a a blade launching hollow back bushcraft knife......! :D

Sounds like a teenage ninja wet dream.....on drugs.

I like hollow handle knives, but the subject sure tends to attract all kinds of people.
 
I look forward to seeing someone make a sheath for a hollow handle knife and maybe making a slot for the SAFE Stick on the side of the sheath (like one would carry a fire steel)....or might the Stick not be intended for that/be a tad too big for that.....
 
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Gaston, nothing personal, but those edges are hideous. I can see the size of them in relation to the rest of the blade. I don't care about the "dual grinder" business, those edges are insanely large.

Just like the one you put on the Neeley. And I did measure that one, and it was very nearly 3/16" wide. That's ridiculously large. You need to learn more about what you're doing before you try and educate people on a knife forum about how it's done. I don't know of anyone in their right mind who would be happy to receive those edges on a knife from a maker or a factory.

Poor grinding originally or not, you have practically ruined the aesthetics and possibly impaired the function on those knives.

The edge bevel is wide on the Neeley because the edge shoulder is 0.060" thick...: I did not make the edge that uselessly thick...

Even you agreed an ideal edge shoulder is around 0.025"-0.028"... The Neeley is over TWICE that, and you blame me for the bevel being around 5/32"-3/16" wide? If the edge was what the thickness you recommend, my bevel would be barely over 3/32", or even 1/16"...

As far as using power tools for thinning bevels, well I've seen power-made water-cooled professional edges, and despite the water-cooling, the tip of 30° inclusive edges sometimes still performs poorly and bended over on wood, then the same edges shows more strength despite being hand-sharpened thinner to 20-25° inclusive...: I'll keep doing it by hand... I don't want to use guided sharpeners either because they do not always follow correctly various tip curves, and this results in uneven bevels. Josh, who is a professional sharpener, told me he would no longer re-profile by hand using his guided sharpeners: His guided sharpenerer edges did look finer than mine, but that shows you any hand re-profiling is hard work, hence starting out has to be really coarse... Also, many guided sharpeners don't go much below 15° per side, which to me is borderline unacceptable.

So then as far as the Lile "Sly II" looking rough, what makes you think it is finished edge? It is not even a finished knife to begin with...

I only wanted to point out the unevenness of the main grind which clearly shows up in photos. I did mention that both Liles started at a "terrific" 80° inclusive... On the picture below is a well under 15° per side edge I finished myself, from the ridiculous original 80° inclusive, and it held up fine while chopping on wood:

P9056422_zpsr2gez0b0.jpg


I find from having used them extensively that 20° per side (40° inclusive) edges are sad and depressing (not to mention completely unsafe, if nothing else)...: They probably can't even push-cut a soft piece of cheese without squeezing the innards by half...

Yet I don't recall specifically going around telling people what they should be doing with their knives... Please extend me the same courtesy... People used to lay the blade down flat and use the secondary grind line as a "guide"... We'll we've moved on from that, now that we all have dull knives I guess...

I have 3 different Randalls that will take 8°-10° per side while chopping wood over weeks, with no problems at all, including even some prying... And the Lile "Mission" did very well with an edge way under 15° per side: You can see some of the "wavy action" near the ricasso that is from their "approximate" workmanship, which is all over the place on the "Sly II": The "SLy II" would be ruined if there was something to ruin, but there isn't...

The "Sly II" will have to be fully re-ground, but I temporarily wanted to sharpen it for short-term use...

As for others who might want to know what kind of quality they can expect from "production" Liles, this is the kind of "problem" Josh encountered with the "Mission" (still one of my favourite knives so far), which I thought might be of some "enlightenment" to prospective buyers...: Under the heat of his oven to prepare for Cerakoating (which we agreed to reduce from 250 to 150° to protect the masked-off handle cordwrap: He offered to re-do the handle wrap it if it was damaged), the guard/blade joint is continuously leaking oil under heat, making Cerakoating impossible... It will have to be polished and re-ground instead of painting...

This should NEVER be happening on a knife of this price: This was not be an issue on my Randall (nor could it be on the RJ Martin), because that join is properly silver-soldered... This could not happen on the Farid or Neeley, because the guard tolerances are so tight you cannot see any gap for any liquid to come out...

This means not ony that there is "a supply" of oily residue inside the handle, but that the guard was not tight-fitted or silver soldered in any way: As the knife is dipped into water there is no sealing to prevent water from getting inside that joint (other than the very low-grade crummy original paint)... Also the original paint could not have been baked-on given this existing "oil leakage" problem...: No wonder this black paint came off as easily as spray-can paint...

I still like this knife very much, but it goes to show you are way overpaying for a name...: I did win an Andrew Clifford "Sly II" auction, and I am expecting way better finishing than the "Mission" at one third the price... As to the "SLy II", we are talking rough blank territory here...

Gaston
 
Also, and this is strictly a professional criticism, nothing personal, but those edge bevels are still hideous. Explain it away however you'd like, but they're enormous. Either the blade needs to be ground thinner, or a narrower bevel applied and live with a thicker edge. But those bevels are unacceptable to the vast majority (read: everyone I've ever encountered).

Edit: And to be clear, the Neeley, Sly II and earlier posted knives you hacked up are the ones I'm primarily talking about.

Edit #2: I finally read all of your post above, and saw the part about about the "oil" leaking out of the knife. This is very likely the epoxy that was used to hold the blade. Hopefully I'm wrong, and you haven't ruined this knife even more by sticking it in an oven. But those temps are more than enough to liquify 30 year old epoxy. Best of luck, I hope I'm wrong. But I can't possibly see why Lile would have packed the inside of the knife with oil, and would bet money he didnt. That makes no sense at all.
 
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Gaston, I simply can’t get past the way you’re destroying these knives. It’s not simply the fact that they were made by Jimmy Lile (or his shop), or the fact that these are irreplaceable pieces of knife history which you don’t fully appreciate. I think the biggest thing that bothers me is the hubris you display by hacking up these knives.

You don’t even fully understand what you’re talking about when it comes to the construction of these knives, much less “improving” them. You talk about how the Lile wasn’t silver soldered or sealed at all behind the guard to prevent water from getting in the guard/blade joint. Do you even understand that the epoxy that you likely melted out of there served just that purpose? Obviously not, since you claim that nothing was done to seal that joint at all.

Jimmy Lile and the people in his shop had been making knives for years, quite possibly decades before ever doing Rambo knives. You think they didn’t know how to make a knife properly? That you just wandered onto the scene 30 years later and have a wealth of knowledge to share with them? Maybe their knives weren’t perfect, but I don’t know of any maker’s knives that are. Anyone who says differently likely just doesn’t know what to look for.

I’m not going to lose sleep over all of this, after all they’re your knives to do with what you want. But please have the self-awareness to understand that you’re making a fool of yourself by telling the whole world how people who made a living making knives got it all wrong 30 years ago. There is a big difference between your personal preference and a knife being improperly made. And you are qualified to tell us this why? Because you’ve bought and “sharpened” (I use that term loosely) a few high-end knives? Go make a couple or so and tell us what you know.

Lol, this is unbelievable and hilarious at the same time.
Learn to listen a little more, and make a fool of yourself a lot less.

Sam Wilson





The edge bevel is wide on the Neeley because the edge shoulder is 0.060" thick...: I did not make the edge that uselessly thick...

Even you agreed an ideal edge shoulder is around 0.025"-0.028"... The Neeley is over TWICE that, and you blame me for the bevel being around 5/32"-3/16" wide? If the edge was what the thickness you recommend, my bevel would be barely over 3/32", or even 1/16"...

As far as using power tools for thinning bevels, well I've seen power-made water-cooled professional edges, and despite the water-cooling, the tip of 30° inclusive edges sometimes still performs poorly and bended over on wood, then the same edges shows more strength despite being hand-sharpened thinner to 20-25° inclusive...: I'll keep doing it by hand... I don't want to use guided sharpeners either because they do not always follow correctly various tip curves, and this results in uneven bevels. Josh, who is a professional sharpener, told me he would no longer re-profile by hand using his guided sharpeners: His guided sharpenerer edges did look finer than mine, but that shows you any hand re-profiling is hard work, hence starting out has to be really coarse... Also, many guided sharpeners don't go much below 15° per side, which to me is borderline unacceptable.

So then as far as the Lile "Sly II" looking rough, what makes you think it is finished edge? It is not even a finished knife to begin with...

I only wanted to point out the unevenness of the main grind which clearly shows up in photos. I did mention that both Liles started at a "terrific" 80° inclusive... On the picture below is a well under 15° per side edge I finished myself, from the ridiculous original 80° inclusive, and it held up fine while chopping on wood:

P9056422_zpsr2gez0b0.jpg


I find from having used them extensively that 20° per side (40° inclusive) edges are sad and depressing (not to mention completely unsafe, if nothing else)...: They probably can't even push-cut a soft piece of cheese without squeezing the innards by half...

Yet I don't recall specifically going around telling people what they should be doing with their knives... Please extend me the same courtesy... People used to lay the blade down flat and use the secondary grind line as a "guide"... We'll we've moved on from that, now that we all have dull knives I guess...

I have 3 different Randalls that will take 8°-10° per side while chopping wood over weeks, with no problems at all, including even some prying... And the Lile "Mission" did very well with an edge way under 15° per side: You can see some of the "wavy action" near the ricasso that is from their "approximate" workmanship, which is all over the place on the "Sly II": The "SLy II" would be ruined if there was something to ruin, but there isn't...

The "Sly II" will have to be fully re-ground, but I temporarily wanted to sharpen it for short-term use...

As for others who might want to know what kind of quality they can expect from "production" Liles, this is the kind of "problem" Josh encountered with the "Mission" (still one of my favourite knives so far), which I thought might be of some "enlightenment" to prospective buyers...: Under the heat of his oven to prepare for Cerakoating (which we agreed to reduce from 250 to 150° to protect the masked-off handle cordwrap: He offered to re-do the handle wrap it if it was damaged), the guard/blade joint is continuously leaking oil under heat, making Cerakoating impossible... It will have to be polished and re-ground instead of painting...

This should NEVER be happening on a knife of this price: This was not be an issue on my Randall (nor could it be on the RJ Martin), because that join is properly silver-soldered... This could not happen on the Farid or Neeley, because the guard tolerances are so tight you cannot see any gap for any liquid to come out...

This means not ony that there is "a supply" of oily residue inside the handle, but that the guard was not tight-fitted or silver soldered in any way: As the knife is dipped into water there is no sealing to prevent water from getting inside that joint (other than the very low-grade crummy original paint)... Also the original paint could not have been baked-on given this existing "oil leakage" problem...: No wonder this black paint came off as easily as spray-can paint...

I still like this knife very much, but it goes to show you are way overpaying for a name...: I did win an Andrew Clifford "Sly II" auction, and I am expecting way better finishing than the "Mission" at one third the price... As to the "SLy II", we are talking rough blank territory here...

Gaston
 
To all HH knife enthusiasts,

I get first dibs on the Sly II if Gaston decides to give it away like the Neeley. :p
 
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I had a Sly2 30 years ago and loved it, very well made tough knife. Never had any problem at all sharpening it or cutting stuff with it, certainly didn't need to grind the living crap out of the edge and call it sharpened.
 
Gaston444, are you in reality, Cliff Stamp?

Please stop ruining this thread.

I am skipping your posts from here on out. Perhaps, if everyone else stops replying to your nonsense, you will go away.

Since you aren't even trying to start your own knife business, and presumably show everyone else how it should be done, it is impossible to take your suggestions seriously anymore. You need to learn how to grind a decent edge for starters.

Sam, don't close this thread down because of this yo-yo.
Cliffy-boy is sneaky.......don't let him win.

Back to our regularly scheduled program.

More knives! More knives! More knives! More knives!
HH only please.
 
Pure gold! A curved sword with a sawback and a a blade launching hollow back bushcraft knife......! :D

Sounds like a teenage ninja wet dream.....on drugs.

I like hollow handle knives, but the subject sure tends to attract all kinds of people.

I look forward to seeing someone make a sheath for a hollow handle knife and maybe making a slot for the SAFE Stick on the side of the sheath (like one would carry a fire steel)....or might the Stick not be intended for that/be a tad too big for that.....

Very true statements, BladeScout. :eek:

As far as the Safe Stic, I haven't made a sheath for one yet, as I have only done a couple. I think it might be too big to attach to the side of a knife sheath, but I thought my M.O.A. System sheaths might be too big, and that has not proven to be the case. We'll see how it goes.
 
To all HH knife enthusiasts,

I get first dibs on the Sly II if Gaston decides to give it away like the Neeley. :p

Shame on you, Tom. :D


Gaston444, are you in reality, Cliff Stamp?

Please stop ruining this thread.

I am skipping your posts from here on out. Perhaps, if everyone else stops replying to your nonsense, you will go away.

Since you aren't even trying to start your own knife business, and presumably show everyone else how it should be done, it is impossible to take your suggestions seriously anymore. You need to learn how to grind a decent edge for starters.

Sam, don't close this thread down because of this yo-yo.
Cliffy-boy is sneaky.......don't let him win.

Back to our regularly scheduled program.

More knives! More knives! More knives! More knives!
HH only please.

I feel pretty much the same way, bearcut. I had thought about it, but I don't want to shut it down. I have received a lot of emails from people literally around the world who have enjoyed this thread very much. There are some amazing pics and collections in here, of pretty much every HH knife I have ever seen and heard of. I have also received a number of emails from people complaining about Gaston hijacking it with his nonsense.

At this point, I don't know what is more frustrating: the hijacking of the thread with the needless and wanton destruction of beautiful knives, or the senseless and unfounded smearing of reputations of excellent quality knifemakers and their well-respected products (well deserved respect, I might add) by someone who doesn't appear to know the first thing about knife design and sharpening and the way knives are constructed.

I do know I'm not going to just sit here while Gaston badmouths the work of a legendary knifemaker, and who is no longer here to be able to defend himself from this ridiculous and ignorant attack on his name. Everybody can do whatever they want with their possessions, but badmouthing an accomplished professional who earned his place in the trade is dishonorable. Especially when combined with the fact that the person running their mouth doesn't know what in the world they're talking about, e.g. melting the epoxy out of a knife by sticking it in an oven. Great job! Hope you got rid of all that "oil" they packed in there. :rolleyes:

If Gaston is simply a troll, he sure has spent a lot of money to do it. I don't see much endgame there, except possibly driving up the value of remaining HH knives he hasn't destroyed. :confused:

I hope we can just get back to talking about HH knives, as it seems that's what everyone except Gaston wants to do.

Sam
 
Time for some pics. Here are some of a recent "tactical" SAFE knife in the field, taken by the new owner.

BILD0008_zpspduycefk.jpg


BILD0012_zpsoipc96v2.jpg


BILD0011_zps9hnuwg3t.jpg


OK, let's see some more pics. I know you guys have either used them or taken glamour shots of your knives, post them up!

Sam :thumbup:
 
I have 3 different Randalls that will take 8°-10° per side while chopping wood over weeks, with no problems at all, including even some prying...

Gaston

GASTON YOU WIN

3.jpg


:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
:D:D
 
0.028", 0.020", 40°, 25°, 0.43", 0.52", 54°, blah, blah, blah, etc.......


Gaston

Gaston, your posts could send a glass eye to sleep.
As I've suggested before, why not treat yourself to a nice new belt grinder, a few pieces of steel, a piece of leather and make one yourself?
That way, you can have the ultimate knife...correct thickness down to the last 0.001", the exact bevel angles, and a fit and finish to meet your very exacting requirements.
You could also be certain that it doesn't have a secret supply of oil in handle. :rolleyes:
It might also keep you busy enough to stay away from this thread for a week or two so the rest of us can start enjoying it once again.


Ian.
 
Gaston, I simply can’t get past the way you’re destroying these knives. It’s not simply the fact that they were made by Jimmy Lile (or his shop), or the fact that these are irreplaceable pieces of knife history which you don’t fully appreciate. I think the biggest thing that bothers me is the hubris you display by hacking up these knives.

You don’t even fully understand what you’re talking about when it comes to the construction of these knives, much less “improving” them. You talk about how the Lile wasn’t silver soldered or sealed at all behind the guard to prevent water from getting in the guard/blade joint. Do you even understand that the epoxy that you likely melted out of there served just that purpose? Obviously not, since you claim that nothing was done to seal that joint at all.


Learn to listen a little more, and make a fool of yourself a lot less.

Sam Wilson

Of course there is sealant for the tube handle: I think a $10 knife could pull that off... But there is no sealant all around the guard: Some expensive knives get away with just a tight fit. On the Lile "Mission" fit looked OK, but it wasn't very tight somewhere if oil keeps coming out of there so repeatedly that Cerakoating has to be put off for weeks...: That means a lot of oil I put on the blade got trapped in there...

I had misunderstood Josh: It was never put in the oven, so it wasn't melting epoxy...: The oil came out from air pressure under sandblasting, the sandblasting being a step to prepare the surface for Cerakoating, and it was probably my oil that got in there, after I stripped the blade... Josh said these kinds of problems are common when Cerakoating firearms. He said there was a gap at the guard, and he agreed that this was unacceptable at this price...: The gap didn't look so big to me, but in any case it was not sealed in any way, and it certainly has a lot of "empty space" somewhere for oil to show up repeatedly, just by blowing air near it...

It doesn't matter anyway, as after Cerakoating all these problems should go away.

As for the Sly II, you don't have the knife, and I can assure you you don't have a clue what you are talking about... The Mission's blade is an absolute marvel of precision in comparison, and you saw the "swell" near the plunge line on that one... I am quite willing to tolerate some things, but not a blade's flat side that looks like the Appalachians... I am sure you make your flats way, way better than that...: I think this would not have made it out of the factory that makes the Cold Steel Bushman...

As to me not doing things the way others approves: I'm just about all in tears about it... Just one look at the nice factory edges on almost all the knives here tells me everything I need to know...:rolleyes:

Gaston

P.S. I did just get My Andrew Clifford Sly II: It is superb. The sheath has to be seen to be believed. Very straight and with very symmetrical clip grinds. 0.040" edge, but feels sharper than that owing to the flat grind. Knurling under the cord wrap, but no recessed border to stabilize the cord. The handle compartment is smaller than usual, only slightly more than the lenght of one match being available under the liquid compass... Balance point 1/2" into the blade. Definitely a more "Busse-like" feel than most hollow handles: The knife alone must be around 20 ounces, and the sheath compounds this... No wasted space at the tip of the sheath, a big plus for me...
 
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Sure thing. Sounds like you have it all figured out... :thumbup:


Of course there is sealant for the tube handle: I think a $10 knife could pull that off... But there is no sealant all around the guard: Some expensive knives get away with just a tight fit. On the Lile "Mission" fit looked OK, but it wasn't very tight somewhere if oil keeps coming out of there so repeatedly that Cerakoating has to be put off for weeks...: That means a lot of oil I put on the blade got trapped in there...

I had misunderstood Josh: It was never put in the oven, so it wasn't melting epoxy...: The oil came out from air pressure under sandblasting, the sandblasting being a step to prepare the surface for Cerakoating, and it was probably my oil that got in there, after I stripped the blade... Josh said these kinds of problems are common when Cerakoating firearms. He said there was a gap at the guard, and he agreed that this was unacceptable at this price...: The gap didn't look so big to me, but in any case it was not sealed in any way, and it certainly has a lot of "empty space" somewhere for oil to show up repeatedly, just by blowing air near it...

It doesn't matter anyway, as after Cerakoating all these problems should go away.

As for the Sly II, you don't have the knife, and I can assure you you don't have a clue what you are talking about... The Mission's blade is an absolute marvel of precision in comparison, and you saw the "swell" near the plunge line on that one... I am quite willing to tolerate some things, but not a blade's flat side that looks like the Appalachians... I am sure you make your flats way, way better than that...: I think this would not have made it out of the factory that makes the Cold Steel Bushman...

As to me not doing things the way others approves: I'm just about all in tears about it... Just one look at the nice factory edges on almost all the knives here tells me everything I need to know...:rolleyes:

Gaston

P.S. I did just get My Andrew Clifford Sly II: It is superb. The sheath has to be seen to be believed. Very straight and with very symmetrical clip grinds. 0.040" edge, but feels sharper than that owing to the flat grind. Knurling under the cord wrap, but no recessed border to stabilize the cord. The handle compartment is smaller than usual, only slightly more than the lenght of one match being available under the liquid compass... Balance point 1/2" into the blade. Definitely a more "Busse-like" feel than most hollow handles: The knife alone must be around 20 ounces, and the sheath compounds this... No wasted space at the tip of the sheath, a big plus for me...
 
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