THE Hollow Handle Knife Thread

Well in the book the knife was just a hunting knife nothing special and no real mention of it. Of course the book was far more bloody and the movie took huge changes in direction from it. If the original script was closer to the book regarding the knife I can see that possibly Stallone had a large part in shaping it, he is known for rewriting scripts.
 
I'm glad Stallone got involved. If not, I doubt that this thread would even exist. Fantastic movie, iconic knife. :thumbup:
 
As far as Lile knives go, I suggest picking up a copy of the book "James B Lile, The Arkansas Knifesmith". It is a little pricey, but more than worth it, based on the information it provides.

According to the book, Jimmy was presented with a brief outline of the script, and was asked by Stallone to make a knife unlike any other knife. For First Blood, Jimmy made 3 prototypes, sent them to Stallone and Stallone picked the one used in the movie. That is as far as Stallone's "design" efforts went. For Rambo First Blood II, I believe 9 prototypes were made and Stallone picked one of those 9 for the movie.

In the book there is a copy of a Lile advertising flyer describing the history of the First Blood knife, explaining why Jimmy designed the knife the way that he did. Nowhere in that letter does he elude to design input by Stallone. However, that is just one side of the story.
 
Last edited:
I'm trying to imagine that if the mine exploration scene pre-dates the knife's final design, then I guess the writers thought the knife's sheath had a pouch with matches... Otherwise he kept a zippo lighter on him, which doesn't make sense because remember that he was under arrest, and for sure in Police custody they make you empty your pockets: Everyone knows that...

I understand there was a bit of back and forth between Stallone and Lile over the knife: The bead blasting pattern going diagonally inside the clip grind was Stallone's idea for instance, but from what you say the basic design was Lile's: What I wonder is, just when did the hollow handle get into it: Was it Lile's idea that the script ran with, or was the hollow handle a response to scenes already present in the script?

What is amazing is that Lile did get it so right: My RJ Martin "Blackbird" is my favorite knife on a technical and design level, and yet even I have to admit, despite my dislike of the clip raker teeth, that both my Farid First Blood and the Lile "Mission" are much more practical survival knives than my beloved "Blackbird"...: For the same 30 ounces weight of the RJ Martin (that's the knife alone) you can carry almost two Lile "Mission"...: 16.9 ounces... I kid you not...

Also, given that the "Mission" both chops and slices so well, it seems the flat grind is not only lighter but more versatile as well...

Gaston
 
From Jimmy's book:

 

Attachments

  • 2015-09-21 17.35.32_resized-1.jpg
    2015-09-21 17.35.32_resized-1.jpg
    30.9 KB · Views: 26
Last edited:
Since I seldom post pics of the Boker Apparo i took a few to post. It spends most of its time tied to my emergency pack in the Fj. Still a very capable knife and very tough.

11219611_10208355460950585_1793640172131833639_n.jpg


12027664_10208355461030587_2208241203594633309_n.jpg


12038266_10208355460030562_944638004895478502_n.jpg
 
Thanks J-Utah! I think I am going to get that book, as at over 400 pages it is worth the asking price.

Gaston
 
Nice post, J-Utah. Thanks for the pic, it's always interesting to hear what the maker of the knife has to say about the why's and wherefor's of their creation.


Since I seldom post pics of the Boker Apparo i took a few to post. It spends most of its time tied to my emergency pack in the Fj. Still a very capable knife and very tough.

11219611_10208355460950585_1793640172131833639_n.jpg


12027664_10208355461030587_2208241203594633309_n.jpg

Dave, glade the knife is working well. Unless I'm mistaken, isn't it made from 440C? I'm glad to see you have finally come around to using a superior high grade steel. Now if you can just clean out the back of your FJ...
 
The Lile First Blood is one of my favorite HH designs. Plain and simple, it's just a great looking knife. What is interesting is, with the exception of the screw driver guards, the 8 features that Lile lists perfectly describes the Randall 18 that was introduced 20 years earlier. Being that the 18 saw significant use in Vietnam, it would have been a very appropriate choice for the Rambo character and the movie.
 
If I had to rank them on looks, leaving out the rare non-iconic ones like the RJ Martin, I would go:

1-Lile First Blood
2-Parrish Survivor
3-Neeley SA
4-Randall Model 18
5-Al Mar SF-10

In usefulness/performance:

1-Lile Mission
2-Parrish Survivor
3-Lile First Blood
4-Randall Model 18
5-Chris Reeves Jereboam/Shadow/Project 1

I'm only counting those that are the most "iconic" and "different", AND go back to at least the 1980s (that is a prerequisite of iconic for hollow handles, I guess), and there are probably quite a few others with a strong "personality", but those are the ones that easily come to mind to rank in a short list of "Big Hollow handle Knives"... One obvious big 1980s blade missing is the Buckmaster...

It's amazing how good the First Blood knife is, given it was a mere prop for a movie, and is the first "modern" hollow handle to come out: It could so easily have been a dud... It is actually very sophisticated: The handle tube was machined recessed for the thin cord, the dry compass has a magnifying lens, the sawback actually works(!), the flat ground grind is difficult to combine with sawteeths, and made harder by the clip grind and other details... I do think the "Mission" improves on it, at the cost of something in looks and sleekness...

Gaston
 
Last edited:
Yes: It reminds me of a full-fledged custom one I saw on Ebay that was much like an enlarged First Blood, 10" but not quite as wide as a "Mission", which was mirror polished and engraved with the name and unit information of a US Army officer (late 80s on a texas base, if memory serves), showing marks of being heavily used(!). I even think he was a Colonel... I don't remember the maker name, or even if there was one, but it looked pretty amazing. The handle was knurled but no cord.

Here's a visual comparison of my REK-refurbished Farid First Blood (which I think is just ever so slightly broader than most Lile FBs) and a Lile Sly II: If you thought the knives were similar you can see they are in fact very, very different. Had I realized that, I probably wouldn't have bid for it, thought $1100 is good for any Lile. The sandblasting is more refined than under the paint of the black-painted "Mission", but the Mission had more precise surfaces and perfect symmetry:

P9226507_zpsejrr5u50.jpg


Note that, like on the "Mission", the Farid has a completely fuctional sawback, with individual teeth top havind a forward "dip", while the sawback on the Sly II is purely decorative..

The Sly II here had surface "issues" that were invisible initially (and almost no edge at all, just an 80° inclusive grind on a 0.043" bevel, so putting any edge on it is a huge undertaking), but these issues came out really obviously under sharpening: The "Mission" was much better made in that regard, symmetry included, and sharpening the "Mission" revealed no problems like this, except right next to the plunge line, which caused me no real concern:

P9236516_zpslwe7vkhk.jpg


The problem here is probably a combination of two things: The knife is flat ground, but it cannot have distal taper for the whole length of the -useless- sawback, so there is a "transition" to the clip taper, then there is the use of the dual grinder which causes some barely visible "waves", that you can just make out here, but enough to cause the edge to waver at the "transition": You can see the vertical "ridge" congruent to the "transition", which might accentuate the edge having an issue: Fortunately Josh of RazorEdgeKnives can fix this sort of thing...:

P9236518_zps9jrbruou.jpg


It likely will get the same treatment as the Farid, but the Farid did not have these flaws: On the Farid I just wanted the edge thinned from 0.043" to 0.030", and a more contact-resistant finish (the original "prototype" beadblasting was kept on the ricasso and clip, and idea of Josh that turned out great).

Basically my advice to anyone interested in getting Liles, or similar knives, and not wanting to deal with the hassle of refinishing them: Get the ones with mirror polished edges: Because of the dividing line between the bead blast and the mirror-finished "contour", these knives cannot get away with this kind of sloppy second-rate finish: It woud be far too obvious with the dividing line waving about... So you can assume the two-tone knives are really of a superior level of finish, and hassle-free if you sharpen them, because the surfaces will have to be straight and true, owing to the nature of the finish...

Also don't get the Sly II if you want a functional saw: Another thing is sheaths for the Sly II are much narrower than those for the FB, so they will not fit an FB at all...

On the good side the Sly II is a very slim and light knife, mine has a very, very strong point geometry (!): It feels very much like a small concealment fighting knife, not at all like the full 9" that it is(!)... I am not thrilled with mine but it is good enough to make a user, and where would I find another Lile at this price? I think I'll go for something a bit crazier on this, like asking for a full mirror polish or some weird Cerakoat colour...

Gaston
 
Last edited:
Gaston, why don't you have Josh reprofile those edges for you, as you are putting some very wavy and insanely wide bevels on some very nice knives? You're destroying those knives with ghastly edges, man.
 
You really are Gaston its painful to see. At least buy a worksharp to do your sharpening with instead of using such a coarse stone and getting it so hugely uneven.

Or at the very least go to the maintenance, tinkering & embellishment forum and post pics and ask for suggestions. If you won't take mine or sam's advice on what your doing to those edges.
 
Guys, Guys, Guys: I know how to apply an edge: Even DESPITE the sandblasting you can STILL see the swells and ridges the Lile people put into it...

The big one that came out ugly on the edge is a huge broad swell that runs the entire height of the blade, plain and simple: You can't see as well the "big" one because it runs from 3/4" behind to 1/2" in front of the swell's "peak", so it is more "blended", and less visible, than smaller ones near the point, even though it is much bigger...

Don't think the photos give a sense of the individual swell amplitude: I can tell you they don't...: One of the near-point ones is bigger, yet they all look the same in the photo...

Amusingly, within the main "big" swell are "piggybacking" smaller swells that all match the pre cut sawteeths... I hope you realize now your initial judgement is wrong, because if that doesn't do it, nothing will...

As I said, the "big" swell may be exaggerated by the "transition" towards the clip taper, and the low angle I use, but for the most part what you see is true to how it is ground.

The swells are so ample I think they would be very hard to imitiate by the surface of a belt grinder, even if you tried...: It is the result of using a special dual grinder tool. (It would be interesting to see what it was...)

Be prudent and don't opine about something you don't know...: You don't know what kind of dual grinder they used, and I know for a fact they didn't hand ground the main bevels in the "usual" way...: This is why the bevels look so "different" from all other flat ground knives...: The big swell near the "Mission" plunge line should give you an indication: The way a belt sander works it would be unaffected by the last sawteeth, yet that machine was big time...

It doesn't matter at all to me as it 0.043" anyway and it will all be re-ground to 0.030" by Josh, and the basic symmetry is not bad...: A "real" belt grinder will obliterate all these swells anyway. (Makes you wonder why the Lile people didn't do it)

By the way the Farid's edge was entirely re-done by me over Josh's edge on that right side, because I wanted a smaller angle than the 15° he put on it: You can see my work on the Farid above: No irregularities...

The "dual grinder", whatever it was, was used because they cranked those out by the hundreds... On the sandblasted ones I guess they figured they could get away with anything...: If you don't want to believe there was anything slipshod and mass-produced about these, don't, and be dead wrong...

Gaston
 
Guys, Guys, Guys: I know how to apply an edge: Even DESPITE the sandblasting you can STILL see the swells and ridges the Lile people put into it...

The big one that came out ugly on the edge is a huge broad swell that runs the entire height of the blade, plain and simple: You can't see as well the "big" one because it runs from 3/4" behind to 1/2" in front of the swell's "peak", so it is more "blended", and less visible, than smaller ones near the point, even though it is much bigger...

Don't think the photos give a sense of the individual swell amplitude: I can tell you they don't...: One of the near-point ones is bigger, yet they all look the same in the photo...

Amusingly, within the main "big" swell are "piggybacking" smaller swells that all match the pre cut sawteeths... I hope you realize now your initial judgement is wrong, because if that doesn't do it, nothing will...

As I said, the "big" swell may be exaggerated by the "transition" towards the clip taper, and the low angle I use, but for the most part what you see is true to how it is ground.

The swells are so ample I think they would be very hard to imitiate by the surface of a belt grinder, even if you tried...: It is the result of using a special dual grinder tool. (It would be interesting to see what it was...)

Be prudent and don't opine about something you don't know...: You don't know what kind of dual grinder they used, and I know for a fact they didn't hand ground the main bevels in the "usual" way...: This is why the bevels look so "different" from all other flat ground knives...: The big swell near the "Mission" plunge line should give you an indication: The way a belt sander works it would be unaffected by the last sawteeth, yet that machine was big time...

It doesn't matter at all to me as it 0.043" anyway and it will all be re-ground to 0.030" by Josh, and the basic symmetry is not bad...: A "real" belt grinder will obliterate all these swells anyway. (Makes you wonder why the Lile people didn't do it)

By the way the Farid's edge was entirely re-done by me over Josh's edge on that right side, because I wanted a smaller angle than the 15° he put on it: You can see my work on the Farid above: No irregularities...

The "dual grinder", whatever it was, was used because they cranked those out by the hundreds... On the sandblasted ones I guess they figured they could get away with anything...: If you don't want to believe there was anything slipshod and mass-produced about these, don't, and be dead wrong...

Gaston


Gaston, nothing personal, but those edges are hideous. I can see the size of them in relation to the rest of the blade. I don't care about the "dual grinder" business, those edges are insanely large.

Just like the one you put on the Neeley. And I did measure that one, and it was very nearly 3/16" wide. That's ridiculously large. You need to learn more about what you're doing before you try and educate people on a knife forum about how it's done. I don't know of anyone in their right mind who would be happy to receive those edges on a knife from a maker or a factory.

Poor grinding originally or not, you have practically ruined the aesthetics and possibly impaired the function on those knives.
 
Gaston you just really need to step away from the coarse stone. Really really need to. Honest to god your just ruining some very nice knives.
 
Time to practice on kitchen knives Gaston. No offense intended at all, but that is not good sharpening. Someone correct me if I am wrong in this, but these kinds of knives are NOT designed to to be thin beveled, delicate slicers. If they were this would be the wrong section. I'd think 80 degrees is good for an axe, but what those pics show is a mess. Sorry to be so blunt, but wow man, it hurts seeing that. But as someone has already said or will eventually, your knives, your money.
 
Last edited:
Time to practice on kitchen knives Gaston. No offense intended at all, but that is not good sharpening. Someone correct me if I am wrong in this, but these kinds of knives re NOT designed to to be thin beveled, delicate slicers. If they were this would be the wrong section I'd think.80 degrees is good for an ave, but what those pics show is a mess. Sorry to be so blunt, but wow man, it hurts seeing that. Bt as someone has already said or will eventually, your knives, your money.

Nope, you nailed it.
 
Back
Top