The Knife Industry is Tacticool BS

Nellem said:
Those that dismiss tactical knives as BS dismisses some of the best talents in knife making history.
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Absolutely. And the same could be said for those who want to dismiss the tried and true traditionals out of hand without, truly, trying them. I'm sure there are many who would. They don't have thumb studs or pocket clips or the latest in handle design/tech, but for me, traditionals are just as awesome in their own ways too. And if I'm honest, part of me likes the traditionals I have because it feels like a "piece of history" as a tried and true design people used decades ago to work on the farm. That's a bit silly, I realize, but that is still part of the innate appeal to me.

On the other hand, I do actually like some kinds of synthetic handles used on your average "tacticool" knife today. While I subscribe to the theory of holding "a certain familiar contempt" for your tools and actually using them as they are meant to be used... I can't deny sometimes I'd prefer to get a big bruiser of a tactical knife dirty and beat up than some of my nicer traditionals. Not always, since those traditionals should be used, but sometimes I can't deny that.

There's nothing particularly tactical about any of my knives, really. The most "tacti-tastic" knife I probably own is a Cold Steel AK-47. It's black, has a silly name and a sorta funky handle to boot. But even when I'm carrying this, I don't feel more stealthy, or tactical. I mean what am I really going to do, stop a heist at the mall because I had my most tacti-tastic knife with me? Probably not. In fact if I did anything I'd be more likely to trip them up with my cane as they were running away so someone else could tackle them.

Tactical is, for me, in many ways an attitude. My Buck 110 could be pretty tactical if I felt that way about it. But instead I love it for what it is, a solid working tool. (And despite its silliness, so is the AK-47).
 
Quiet said:
Your response here continues to uphold my initial assertion. You keep saying "I call BS!" as though you have some authority that allows you to make a factual argument. Hint: you don't. So, in the end, you only end up looking immature and like all others who use bad logic in order to state "What I like is awesome, what I don't like is dumb!" when there's nothing objective or factual about such an assertion. However, if you think you're an authority, more power to you. :thumbup:

Edit:



Ahhhhh....it's making a lot more sense. I thought I knew everything when I was younger also. LOL
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Again, I've done nothing to assert that I'm an authority, just made a few points that you have thus far refused to refute, instead resorting to childish assertions that I must be immature, or that my opinion is somehow less relevant than your own. I've told you why what you like "is dumb" (in so many words, of course) and you've resorted to an ad hominem based argument. Here's an idea: what some people like, is awesome! What some people like, is dumb! Just because they like it, doesn't mean it's not dumb! Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Many opinions (including my own at times) are wrong. Perhaps these opinions will have more "authority" since that is apparently what you need:

http://www.thetruthaboutknives.com/2013/03/ask-a-knifemaker-the-truth-about-tantos/

http://faq.customtacticals.com/geometry/shape_amtanto.php

from our own forums:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/866596-American-Tanto-vs-Spear-Point

And an article in which Sal Glesser himself says that knives are poor modern weapons:

"Glesser doesn't want people to think of knives only as weapons.

He says there are plenty of better things to defend yourself with, including pepper spray, baseball bats, canes and umbrellas."

(emphasis added)

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/spyderco-s-sal-glesser-makes-innovative-knives-at-home-and/article_6032a581-e726-5b84-9062-e4c3d978aa96.html

The problem with the... proliferation of new tactical designs is that it limits the number of truly useful designs that the market can support. For example, Kershaw has (including filet knives) 140 knives listed on their website. Of that, they list 26 as "tactical". Okay, just a little over 1/6. Of their 34 pocket knives listed as "new", however, 11 are tactical. Part of this is the release of the new emerson line, but it shows the trend towards more "tactical" oriented knives. I don't think all of the knives they list as "tactical" are so compromised in their utility that they aren't useful additions to the line-up, but stabbing people was a purpose the designers kept in mind. Really? Why? Tactical knife fans are very outspoken in their support for knives with americanized tanto grinds, frame locks, skull beads, etc, and I think that very rarely is this trend honestly criticized.

YES, the market drives what will sell. People for YEARS bought cigarettes because of the image they associated with them. Cigarettes were "cool". I think they are more commonly looked at today as being ridiculous. For years people though metal handles were required for a knife to be strong. Spyderco's FRN handles were leered at. Now synthetic handles are commonplace.

I'm not saying everyone should carry an opinel. Day to day, I carry a kershaw knockout or a spyderco delica more than anything else. However, modern technology and incredible craftsmanship can be implemented in such a way as to make a knife GOOD AT BEING A KNIFE. And why not? Perhaps my problem is that I use my knives, and use them frequently, and so knives that are less functional for the sake of some real or imagined "cool factor" seem sacrilegious.
 
D-R0CK said:
Yes, a gun requires a lot of attention. So does a knife. A knife requires much more training to be effective for personal protection than a firearm. And if we're honest, the majority of the people who can afford a tactical microtech, benchmade, ZT, or emerson can afford a turkish made handgun. Heck, most of those people already own firearms. Despite how "cool" (?) protecting yourself with a knife looks in the movies (which you mention) it isn't a good defensive weapon.
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I think often times people forget not everyone lives in America... here even pepper-spray and kubaton are forbidden. They are concealed weapons. But not tactical knives. :rolleyes:
 
Goosey said:
I think often times people forget not everyone lives in America... here even pepper-spray and kubaton are forbidden. They are concealed weapons. But not tactical knives. :rolleyes:
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That's a shame, although I do not have one, I think kubatons are nifty! When I was in 4-H at the State Fair a girl did a presentation on their use, that has always stuck with me, she seemed so cool.

It's odd that kubatons are a no-no but tactical knives not so much. Odd, but very fortunate of course.
 
Goosey said:
I think often times people forget not everyone lives in America... here even pepper-spray and kubaton are forbidden. They are concealed weapons. But not tactical knives. :rolleyes:
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Ha! Interesting. What country if I might ask? Seems that most places which have laws against the most basic defensive tools have already outlawed locking blades.
 
james terrio said:
I agree... but oddly enough, it works. That guy has sold more knives than I ever will and many of his fans border on being rabid about him, his designs, and his attitude.

On the other hand, there are also other designers and manufacturers who sell lots of (in fact a whole lot more) similar knives without the snottiness - or "tacticool BS" for that matter. So it's up to us to just vote with our wallets.
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You're right, he's got a few there with a gargantuan man crush ready to circle the wagons if necessary; a modern day cross between P.T. Barnum and Svengali that one.;)
 
Several posts made a great point with which I agree 100%. I do not dismiss "tactical" knives as BS, I dismiss the labels. Tactical, Pro, Ultimate, Celebrity Endorsed, Survival, etc - all those are just marketing terms that I pay zero attention to. It is the knife that matters. How it is built, what materials are used and most important how the sum of all parts fits my application which could be anything from a very specific task in terms of practical use to simply a spot in the display case. Don't forget that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. With a huge variety of applications, legal limits, tastes, budgets and collectible investment speculation - no single person can possibly pass authoritative judgement on what works or doesn't, what should be purchased or what shouldn't. You buy what you buy and I buy what I buy.

Here is an example: Spyderco PM2. Own it, use it, consider it to be a great cutting tool, awesome EDC and respect it in that application. I just don't like the look. I'd never call it ugly but I just don't like it. That's my personal perception. Would I say it in someone else's review thread, etc? Nope. Would I not recommend it to someone who's desired application would be met by it? Nope. Did it stop me from buying it? Nope. I keep my subjective views to myself. Do I have knives that are just completely useless in any practical application I can expose them to? Sure. They do look great in my view. Have I ever purchased a knife because of marketing labels and hype? Nope. Have i purchased a knife because I just had to have it? Sure. That's the nature of being human and what personal preference is all about. Just trying to stress this because it is when we try to impose our personal preference-based opinion on someone else, let alone do it in a way that intentionally attempts to disqualify the other person's reasoning as inferior - that's when we step into it. Mind you there are cases of deceptive marketing bordering on criminal and that's when we do have to warn others of certain disappointment upon purchase but that is very rare and applies to a small % of products out there and even then we should be respectful of other's ultimate decisions.
 
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Alnamvet68 said:
You're right, he's got a few there with a gargantuan man crush ready to circle the wagons if necessary; a modern day cross between P.T. Barnum and Svengali that one.;)
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Yup. "Man-crush" lol... yeah, the knife biz is driven pretty heavily by the personalities involved. Especially when you get into the celebrity endorsement/TV knives some folks have mentioned... good grief, most of those are an embarassment at best. You can paint "Duck Dynasty" or "Larry the Cable Guy" on basically anything and it will sell to a certain number of people.

But.. who cares, really? Good for them. No one's twisting my arm to give anyone my money, and I'd happily trade paychecks with Jeff Randall or Lynn Thompson or Jerry Busse (or Phil Roberston or Dan Whitney) any time :D I simply don't like most of those knives, so I decided not to purchase them long before I knew much about the personalities or marketing approaches behind them. Maybe I'm just weird that way... *shrug*

RedLynx said:
My Buck 110 could be pretty tactical if I felt that way about it.
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And for many many years, the Buck 110 was the top-of-the-line "tactical" folding knife, relied upon and carried with pride by everyone from soldiers to cops to outlaw bikers, as well as hunters, farmers and just regular folks. I'm sure there were plenty of people who scoffed at it mercilessly when it first came out, and swore it was just a passing fad with no real purpose.

The 110 seems passe' to most of us now... mid-grade steel, too heavy for its size, no thumbstud or pocketclip, brass has almost entirely fallen out of fashion... but where would the industry be today if no one had ever designed the basic lockback folder?
 
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james terrio said:
Yup. "Man-crush" lol... yeah, the knife biz is driven pretty heavily by the personalities involved. Especially when you get into the celebrity endorsement/TV knives some folks have mentioned... good grief, most of those are an embarassment at best. You can paint "Duck Dynasty" or "Larry the Cable Guy" on basically anything and it will sell to a certain number of people.

But.. who cares, really? Good for them. No one's twisting my arm to give anyone my money, and I'd happily trade paychecks with JR or LT or JB any time :D I don't like the blocky unfinished handles on Jeff's knives, so I decided not to purchase them long before I knew anything about his personality or marketing approach. *shrug*



And for many many years, the Buck 110 was the top-of-the-line "tactical" folding knife, relied upon and carried with pride by everyone from soldiers to cops to outlaw bikers, as well as hunters, farmers and just regular folks. I'm sure there were plenty of people who scoffed at it mercilessly when it first came out, and swore it was just a passing fad with no real purpose.

The 110 seems passe' to most of us now... mid-grade steel, too heavy for its size, no thumbstud or pocketclip, brass has almost entirely fallen out of fashion... but where would the industry be today if no one had ever designed the basic lockback folder?
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Funny you say that brass is almost out of fashion. I'm looking around for a 112 or 110, but really like the brass bolsters on these knives, and like the patina it forms.
 
Well this got off topic real fast. Using "Tacticool" just outs you as having dyslexia or a niche focused marketing strategy. When someone from an "industry" is using colloquialisms to describe competitors, he's just playing the persona to his demographic. It's a pretty sad business strategy as it only caters to a few and doesn't help solve much for the rest of us. Here is the Full Definition of TACTICAL:

1: of or relating to combat tactics: as
a (1) : of or occurring at the battlefront <a tactical defense> <a tactical first strike> (2) : using or being weapons or forces employed at the battlefront <tactical missiles>
b of an air force : of, relating to, or designed for air attack in close support of friendly ground forces

2
a : of or relating to tactics: as (1) : of or relating to small-scale actions serving a larger purpose (2) : made or carried out with only a limited or immediate end in view
b : adroit in planning or maneuvering to accomplish a purpose

Randall makes money by making knives for life or death survival situations. I don't assume that everyone on here has to cut themselves out of an aircraft fuselage everyday. Nor do I think it relevant to assume that Randall's knives are better for anything other than a survival situation. They make awful knives for just about everything a practical knife can do and make enjoyable. They will do a lot of other tasks, camping, cooking, but if every tool you use is a hammer, every problem starts to look like a nail. Him saying that he's a part of the 99% of bullshit (how I read it) is great! That means he's a better knife salesman than a mathematician, but I'm sure he feels like his market share is the only one that exists. He's also forgetting about the rest of us who aren't always living in a survival situation in the jungle and are just trying to find good tools to help pay the rent.
 
D-R0CK said:
Again, I've done nothing to assert that I'm an authority, just made a few points that you have thus far refused to refute You've made no relevant, factual points, sorry.

instead resorting to childish assertions that I must be immature, Again, the way you're making your "points" is what's childish and immature. or that my opinion is somehow less relevant than your own. Not at all, you just keep making sweeping statements as though you speak objectively, when you don't. I've told you why what you like "is dumb" (in so many words, of course) and you've resorted to an ad hominem based argument. I've not resorted to anything whatsoever. I've simply told you that your points are opinion based, when you keep attempting to state them as fact, and that you look immature doing it. Here's an idea: what some people like, is awesome! What some people like, is dumb! Just because they like it, doesn't mean it's not dumb! But of course, you have decided that you need to set people straight, right? "TANTOS ARE USELESS OMG! TACTICAL IS STUPID!" Right? Right? Hello? LOL Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Many opinions (including my own at times) are wrong. Perhaps these opinions will have more "authority" since that is apparently what you need:

http://www.thetruthaboutknives.com/2013/03/ask-a-knifemaker-the-truth-about-tantos/

http://faq.customtacticals.com/geometry/shape_amtanto.php

from our own forums:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/866596-American-Tanto-vs-Spear-Point

And an article in which Sal Glesser himself says that knives are poor modern weapons:

Oh, well what SAL says. It amuses me that you accuse me of making an ad hominem attack, and then engage in an appeal to authority logic fallacy. LOL Well done.

"Glesser doesn't want people to think of knives only as weapons.

He says there are plenty of better things to defend yourself with, including pepper spray, baseball bats, canes and umbrellas."

(emphasis added)

Again, Sal's a great guy, and I love his products, but frankly, what he thinks or does not think about knives being good weapons is no more factual or relevant than anyone else. Sorry.

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/spyderco-s-sal-glesser-makes-innovative-knives-at-home-and/article_6032a581-e726-5b84-9062-e4c3d978aa96.html

The problem with the... proliferation of new tactical designs is that it limits the number of truly useful designs that the market can support.

Please support this assertion with market data of...well, ANY kind. Thank you.

For example, Kershaw has (including filet knives) 140 knives listed on their website. Of that, they list 26 as "tactical". Okay, just a little over 1/6. Of their 34 pocket knives listed as "new", however, 11 are tactical. Part of this is the release of the new emerson line, but it shows the trend towards more "tactical" oriented knives. I don't think all of the knives they list as "tactical" are so compromised in their utility that they aren't useful additions to the line-up, but stabbing people was a purpose the designers kept in mind. Really? Why? Tactical knife fans are very outspoken in their support for knives with americanized tanto grinds, frame locks, skull beads, etc, and I think that very rarely is this trend honestly criticized.

Why should it be honestly criticized? What is the purpose? Listen kid, companies are free to make whatever they want. Period. They make what the market wants. And clearly, what the market wants is a selection of tantos. Full stop, period.

YES, the market drives what will sell. People for YEARS bought cigarettes because of the image they associated with them. Cigarettes were "cool". I think they are more commonly looked at today as being ridiculous. For years people though metal handles were required for a knife to be strong. Spyderco's FRN handles were leered at. Now synthetic handles are commonplace.

I'm not saying everyone should carry an opinel. Day to day, I carry a kershaw knockout or a spyderco delica more than anything else. However, modern technology and incredible craftsmanship can be implemented in such a way as to make a knife GOOD AT BEING A KNIFE. And why not? Perhaps my problem is that I use my knives, and use them frequently, and so knives that are less functional for the sake of some real or imagined "cool factor" seem sacrilegious.
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My comments in bold above. You continue to make poor arguments. Sorry. I also love your final insinuation. "Well, I use my knives, and it's clear in my mind that people who own tantos must not!"

Please show me something that states that tantos don't make good knives. Don't try to give me a link to some comments made by a respected knife-maker, because here's a shock: those don't mean anything. Show me some sort of FACTUAL EVIDENCE that shows that tantos don't make good knives. Do tanto bladed knives somehow not cut as well? Do they just bounce off that envelope when you try to open it? Does that apple shrug a tanto blade off? Like, "COME BACK WHEN YOU HAVE A CLIP-POINT, LOSER!" LOL

Nothing you've said makes any sense, and it comes off as the bleatings of a very immature young person who's attempting to school people MUCH more knowledgeable and experienced than yourself on what we should or should not find interesting or acceptable. Sorry, I don't take it well when children try to condescend to me and make a bunch of opinion statements and then claim they're making real, objective points.

Have a nice day.

P.S. Can't help it, I just have to ask, do you REALLY respect or understand Sal's opinion that knives shouldn't be seen as weapons, when multiple knives in his line-up are DESIGNED to be weapons? Cough cough the Police and Military models, or that one slasher serrated hawkbill from the Hannibal series, the Matriarch. Yeah, Sal's right, the Matriarch was actually designed to open mail, STOP CALLING IT A WEAPON! cough

I mean, really? Come on, now.
 
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I've cluttered up this thread enough, but I just wanted to share my own view of the word "tactical". Like many things, it was a decent enough idea that (as usual) got grabbed by marketing doofs and turned into a label that was slapped on countless items. Tactical socks, tactical notebooks, tactical bacon, tactical combs, ad nauseum. The fact is, in its very basic idea, there's nothing inherently wrong with the idea of something being "tactical", especially with regard to knives. Hell, a small knife could be considered tactical, because "tactical" in its basic form (and in my opinion) means that the item in question is carried in order to provide the carrier with options.

If you need to cut an apple, or whittle a spoon, or yes, defend yourself in a pinch when you don't have a gun, a baseball bat, mace, a can, or anything else: a knife in hand is going to provide options. And options are always better than no options. :thumbup:
 
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Well after reading all seven pages of this thread, I am ready to go out and buy a black bladed, tanto combo edge with lots of jimping, and preferably an automatic, a/o, or at least have a wave feature. Don't forget the glass breaker.
 
Enough with the tanto argument. It's just sad. Apparently your google is broke. Otherwise you could research the history of the profile and the cultures that have used it for just about everything hundreds of years before the West was even a whisper. Learn your history kids, you'll sound like less of an idiot.

Hit that search button and find out, or read this: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/658783-History-of-American-Tanto-Point

The cow said:
How many years have they've been planning it?
Maybe they'll get it out when they release another Duke Nukem
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Saw the prototype photos from blade show. JR discusses the folder at 5:15. "Any other company makes a knife as good as us". You see what I mean by playing the persona to push gear (in the article), but I appreciate his sincerity in his passion for what he does. I have great respect for anyone that wants to teach people life saving skills. I'd much rather have a beer with him than shoot the shit at show booth.

[video=youtube;PogmKOK_2qI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PogmKOK_2qI&list=UU4YOBmzRey4X3lLCjhw3UaQ#t=317[/video]

Having experience with back country S/R, I wouldn't want to place any artificial limitations on myself via my tools. Especially if it's life or death. Same goes for bringing a recreation "frontier", "tactical", "survival" knife to the back country as your only option, isn't the brightest one. You won't prove how manly you are when you're dead.
 
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james terrio said:
And for many many years, the Buck 110 was the top-of-the-line "tactical" folding knife, relied upon and carried with pride by everyone from soldiers to cops to outlaw bikers, as well as hunters, farmers and just regular folks. I'm sure there were plenty of people who scoffed at it mercilessly when it first came out, and swore it was just a passing fad with no real purpose.

The 110 seems passe' to most of us now... mid-grade steel, too heavy for its size, no thumbstud or pocketclip, brass has almost entirely fallen out of fashion... but where would the industry be today if no one had ever designed the basic lockback folder?
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I don't read many knife mags often, but 10 years back I happened to be in the right time and place to pick up an issue of Blade, and it happened to be the one that had a nice Buck 110 article in it for its 40th anniversary. I imagine they've done another one this year as it is now at the 50 year milestone. I don't carry mine often, but I still fall back on it sometimes and would in a heartbeat. It is heavy, but not really when carried on the belt in a pouch. Probably passe to many like you said, but also another tried and true design. Indeed, where would we be? I love lockbacks.
 
Quiet said:
Please show me something that states that tantos don't make good knives. Don't try to give me a link to some comments made by a respected knife-maker, because here's a shock: those don't mean anything. Show me some sort of FACTUAL EVIDENCE that shows that tantos don't make good knives. Do tanto bladed knives somehow not cut as well? Do they just bounce off that envelope when you try to open it? Does that apple shrug a tanto blade off? Like, "COME BACK WHEN YOU HAVE A CLIP-POINT, LOSER!" LOL
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Full disclosure. I am working on a new type of mutated apple that is designed to do exactly this. If you guys don't see me around for a few days, assume the worst. The apples have taken over.
 
This thread is why knife ownership in the US is screwed. By people creating and misusing labels and deriding large segments of users for falling into one of their labels. If there was a law proposed banning "tactical" knives some of you have given ammo to those people. As a matter of fact, with the "hatred" some of you are exhiting towards "tactical" you probably wouldn't mind if they were banned. I buy and use what I like, including slipjoints and modern one handed opening folding knives (notice how I didn't use a marketing label). I've been around BF's for quite a few years now and am really getting tired of these arguments that do nothing but give ammo to the anti-knife crowd and believe me there are those that would like to see almost all knives banned. There are makers and company's that you couldn't give me one of their products but I never come out and deride those that buy them. We're all in this together, no matter what our tastes are and there isn't any room for a crapstorm like this that does nothing but alienate whole sections of people.
 
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