The latest Ganzo Firebird D2 knives

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benchwarmer380 said:
It's an interesting question though.

Modern knives tend to have a distinct design that makes them their own.

Many different companies have their take on traditional knife patterns like the stockman, peanut, Barlow, trapper ect.

Are traditional knives, which the Buck 110 is commonly considered, seen in the same light as moderns with distinct ownership of design or are they more of an open source like the Walker liner lock?
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I think knives face the same "public domain" status as with most other creative expressions. Things reach a point that they've been around so long that they no longer are afforded IP protection. One indication of the 110's membership in the public domain group is the use of the word "buck knife" to refer to any generic clip point back lock folder.

The 110 just celebrated its...60th birthday? At some point knives will drift away from IP protection and into the public domain. There are no hard and fast rules for when that happens like there are for music or images, but it still happens.

In terms of the designs stolen by Ganzo, all of those knives were 20 or fewer years old. There is no "public domain" status to a PM2 or a Grip.

I definitely agree that there's a difference between a knife genus (peanut, barlow, congress) and a knife design (PM2, Delica). At one time, perhaps a peanut was new and innovative and should have had IP protection, but those days are past and indeterminable. The Buck 110 may be one of the "youngest" public domain knife genres but still has been around long enough to make it acceptable to homage.
 
Hackenslash said:
I think knives face the same "public domain" status as with most other creative expressions. Things reach a point that they've been around so long that they no longer are afforded IP protection. One indication of the 110's membership in the public domain group is the use of the word "buck knife" to refer to any generic clip point back lock folder.

The 110 just celebrated its...60th birthday? At some point knives will drift away from IP protection and into the public domain. There are no hard and fast rules for when that happens like there are for music or images, but it still happens.

In terms of the designs stolen by Ganzo, all of those knives were 20 or fewer years old. There is no "public domain" status to a PM2 or a Grip.

I definitely agree that there's a difference between a knife genus (peanut, barlow, congress) and a knife design (PM2, Delica). At one time, perhaps a peanut was new and innovative and should have had IP protection, but those days are past and indeterminable. The Buck 110 may be one of the "youngest" public domain knife genres but still has been around long enough to make it acceptable to homage.
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I don't know what went on back then, but after the 110's huge success, those other companies jumped all over it! Maybe Buck Knives hadn't patented it? Maybe those other companies saw it as just another pattern? But it certainly was wrong of them to blatantly copy it so quickly, imo.
 
I think the best point to make in these discussions when Ganzo (and it's always Ganzo) comes up is that we are not talking about Buck vs. Schrade etc.

Again the clone army say things like "well that one guy murdered all those people; why aren't you mad about that", or "well if you pull into a meter that still has time do you move your car to one that's expired so you're not a thief too" as one of their talking points.

It's an irrelevant attempt to flatten the curve. If they want to talk about Buck 110s there is a whole Buck sub on here that's very active.

Ganzo's bad acts can't be dismissed or apologized because Genghis Khan did some bad stuff back in the day.
 
Buck 110:
buck-110$01-buck-v201902.jpg

Uncle Henry Bear Paw Lockback LB7:
uhlb7$01-schrade-uncle-henry.jpg
 
DocJD said:
And , if I was a big USA based name brand knife co. , I'd be way WAY more worried about the competition from "legitimate " Chinese up and comers like WE . o_O
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No, because they are playing on the same field.
They are producing expensive knives made of expensive materials, competing for the business of people who like buying expensive things.

Looking at the knife site I buy from (when I have money, that is...), WE knives are not cheaper than the ZT knives, Spyderco or other knives I'd be looking at. They are competing the way you are supposed to, by putting a product out there and designing it so that hopefully people will pick yours instead of the others.

Not much from them I'd be interested in, but a couple of their knives look interesting.
 
stabman said:
No, because they are playing on the same field.
They are producing expensive knives made of expensive materials, competing for the business of people who like buying expensive things.

Looking at the knife site I buy from (when I have money, that is...), WE knives are not cheaper than the ZT knives, Spyderco or other knives I'd be looking at. They are competing the way you are supposed to, by putting a product out there and designing it so that hopefully people will pick yours instead of the others.

Not much from them I'd be interested in, but a couple of their knives look interesting.
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Correct. And the legit companies also bear the burden of design, development and testing. That's a cost Ganzo never bore by stealing proven designs and features.
 
danbot said:
Does anyone know of any Ganzo clones of WE, Reate or Kizer designs?
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danbot said:
Do the legit Chinese companies also need to be concerned with Ganzo stealing from them?
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I thought that was a fascinating question when you asked it earlier. I meant to respond, but I've honestly been thinking about it.

I can remember seeing one knife from one of these "new, legit" makers cloned. That knife was the old Reate Horizon...I think it was either the Horizon A or D. I was cruising a clone site one day and came across a "titanium horizon knife". Other than that, the only other instance that comes to mind is the Kevin John Venom...I think it was actually the Venom 2. This is ironic because Kevin John started copying Shiro and Microtech others, and then had an original design copied by someone else!

It could be that these new Chinese designs haven't been iconic enough. These companies have proliferated in the era of the "framelock flipper" and they do seem rather vanilla and generic. These new makers have certainly raised the bar on excellence in manufacturing, but they exist in a design sphere that's fairly rote and predictable. If a Chinese maker creates the Benchmade Bugout of 2020, it'll be interesting to see if clones begin to pop up at the usual locations. I can't really think of a single Chinese knife that became "THE" knife in a given season. Maybe the closest to that status would be the Drop Laconico Keen?

Another possibility that's a little fun to ponder is that these Chinese makers understand the knife manufacturing family tree far better than we can. It's possible they may know who the cloners are. Its even possible some have been past partners with cloners and know where they live! I can picture Marlon Brando toying with a clone knife and saying "I'm going to make him and offer he can't refuse"...
The-Godfather-Vito.jpg
 
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Ebenvoila said:
No, it just shows that Ganzo is not the only one. Even USA companies make copies...
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Yes they did and sometimes still do. a few years back Benchmade got into a bit of trouble for using a hole opener on a few of their knives. They got together with Spyderco and worked out a deal. The old slipjoint designs have been around for many decades. Can you even name the company that was first to produce a peanut, stockman, barlow etc.? The 110 design was already around for before I was born. Also I might add before the knife community itself was born. How do you know there wasn't any backlash over the 110 copycats? You think Schrade will release any of the angry letters they received from one of the few people who considered themselves knife enthusiasts?? Remember, you are applying a current way of thinking to a long bygone era. People back then had a HELL of a lot less free time and more important things to worry about than what company might've stole what design from another.

I am under no delusions Ganzo is only a small drop in what is a very large geopolitical pot that is more than likely going to boil over if it continues as it has been. BUT this is a small community and we are able to see the effects a Ganzo has because folks like Sal Glesser are willing to comment on how it directly has impacted his business. This more than any other reason is why we rail against Ganzo and is also the one thing @Chronovore continued to ignore in his arguments aginst what he perceives is a "mob mentality" when it comes to this brand in particular.
"Why Ganzo?" because it is the brand brought up the most by people who are generally outside of the knife community. They saw an inexpensive knife on Amazon and thought it looked pretty cool. In doing research as to whether or not to make the purchase. They stumble across BladeForums in a Google search, read a few threads, and decide that the members are knowledgeable enough to help them. So they create an account and ask "What do you think of Ganzo knives?", "Is the Ganzo xxx a good quality knife?", or some variation of that. Then of course we get the "Hey Ganzo is changing it's ways, now it's ok to buy them!" threads like this one.

I just feel (and I think guys like @craytab , @Insipid Moniker , and danbot danbot would agree) obligated to let them know what they are buying into, because it it truly is a detriment to this community.
 
Ebenvoila said:
Buck 110:
buck-110$01-buck-v201902.jpg

Uncle Henry Bear Paw Lockback LB7:
uhlb7$01-schrade-uncle-henry.jpg
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Which one is the Ganzo knife?

I will save you the time and answer neither.

Your argument is specious; this discussion is regard to Ganzo knives. If you'd like to talk about Buck there is an active sub here.

It's merely your wishful thinking that leads to the fallacy that if some other company copied a knife it's OK for Ganzo to do it too.
 
Danke42 said:
Which one is the Ganzo knife?

I will save you the time and answer neither.

Your argument is specious; this discussion is regard to Ganzo knives. If you'd like to talk about Buck there is an active sub here.

It's merely your wishful thinking that leads to the fallacy that if some other company copied a knife it's OK for Ganzo to do it too.
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Please don't make me tell things I've never told!

I'm against copies in any way, and since the beginning of this subject, I spoke about Ganzo's new inhouse designs.
Stealing designs of other companies to make profit is not fair and not tolerable. But it happens, and even in the US!
But it's also not right to say that all chinese companies are the incarnate devil!

Ganzo will continue to exist with or without you, if you want it or not, but if they realize that making their own designs is more interesting then they will do it. If it's not the case, they will continue to only make copies.

It's always the law of supply and demand.

It's important to inform people about all this, but it's also important to consider that many people can't afford expensive knives, and that the prices and the means are not the same all over the world.
But also consider that many people would buy one or several cheap knives and probably some copies before buying more expensives ones or originals.
 
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There is always a difference between an original and its copy, which is often easy to explain with the price.
 
Ebenvoila said:
Please don't make me tell things I've never told!

I'm against copies in any way, and since the beginning of this subject, I spoke about Ganzo's new inhouse designs.
Stealing designs of other companies to make profit is not fair and not tolerable. But it happens, and even in the US!
But it's also not right to say that all chinese companies are the incarnate devil!

Ganzo will continue to exist with or without you, if you want it or not, but if they realize that making their own designs is more interesting then they will do it. If it's not the case, they will continue to only make copies.

It's always the law of supply and demand.

It's important to inform people about all this, but it's also important to consider that many people can't afford expensive knives, and that the prices and the means are not the same all over the world.
But also consider that many people would buy one or several cheap knives and probably some copies before buying more expensives ones or originals.
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Speaking of saying things I never said; I haven't said anything like Chinese companies being the devil.

I have not commented anything regarding the Chinese.

I have commented on Ganzo and their bad practices but it's merely happenstance that they are Chinese.

For people like you to try and "okay" them by citing others bad acts is ludicrous. If you were a trial lawyer would that be your deference of your client? Sure they did all those bad things but other people have done much worse; let's just let them off the hook again and then they'll learn spontaneously that honesty is the best policy.
 
I've yet to hear any complaints about many of the advertisers on the forum? Maybe most of you are paid members and don't see the adds. Many of them are from Chinese companies like "pearlfeet" they not only sell copies they often don't ship products at all! Read their reviews!
It's obviously not right to rip off someone's hard work. I can't even imagine what Sal goes through seeing all the fake Spyderco's floating around! I don't know what the answer to this problem is but there just seems to be a lot of hypocrisy every time this subject comes up!
 
Mike45ACP said:
I've yet to hear any complaints about many of the advertisers on the forum? Maybe most of you are paid members and don't see the adds. Many of them are from Chinese companies like "pearlfeet" they not only sell copies they often don't ship products at all! Read their reviews!
It's obviously not right to rip off someone's hard work. I can't even imagine what Sal goes through seeing all the fake Spyderco's floating around! I don't know what the answer to this problem is but there just seems to be a lot of hypocrisy every time this subject comes up!
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I don’t think Blade Forums has any control over ads sponsored by the web host. Those ads support the web host and will be drawing demographics and marketing info they can pull off your search engine cookies. Blade Forums doesn’t sell or control that ad space. It’s a great reason to become a paid member but not evidence of hypocrisy on the part of Blade Forums.

I like to think I’m a rational person. I’ve yet to see a defense of clones and counterfeits that didn’t rely on diversion, distraction or deflecting. That fact alone should be enough to make it clear that there is a problem with clones and counterfeits. Every argument for clones takes the form of “yeah, I know A, but what about B”! Each argument seeks to justify a cloner by a separate, unconnected event. C’mon, we have to do better than this.

Oh, and use Duck, Duck Go for a search engine, Mailfence for email and Mozilla for a browser :D.
 
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